Panasonic's new version of HPX300

[Steve Cooperman]

I am sorry Barry but I get suspicious of companies who don't develop their products properly and then do re-launches a year later using different names for different regions.

As far as the spec goes for this camera I already have in my 301 most of the features and I am expected to buy the camera again to get a 2 stop improvement in the noise floor. The camera is unuseable beyond F5.6 due to CA as highlighted in the BBC report I have so to quote F10 or F11 means nothing to me as I would never use a 1/3" chip camera at those apertures.

Most of this just smacks of re-marketing due to poor sales of the 300/301 OK then that is fine but I will have to really consider what my personal equipment workflow is if these cameras are going to be made obsolete on a yearly basis.

The 301/370 still does not meet EBU and BBC specs for broadcast here as 1/2" is the minimum so it may be that I will be switching back to Sony for my next re-equip and dropping the P2 system as I suspect that the format will be the next thing to be upgraded.

You said it your self that the european marketing people may have thought that MAICO was a better name but I might as well go and spread some cerimides on my butt and rub my hands with peptimides and serum:laugh: Sorry more marketing speak thats moistiorising cream to me!

Its no big deal anyway as most of my clients wouldn't know a 301 for a 371 anyway, we used to have a car called a Ford probe here but that didn't sell, not for the name but because it was just a mondeo with a different body on it!

Regarding the comment, “I am sorry Barry but I get suspicious of companies who don't develop their products properly and then do re-launches a year later using different names for different regions.”

There are a couple of issues here. Firstly, some Panasonic models have different model numbers for different regions. Regardless, the HPX370 is 50/60hz switchable, so, it supports international HD/SD standards. This means you can use it worldwide, but, due to our 5-year warranty system, it’s best to purchase your product in the region where you live (and from an authorized reseller).

Secondly, if you are suspicious of companies who “don't develop their products properly and then do re-launches a year later,” then I assume you also have issues if another company were to deliver a product and take 2 years and 2 dozen+ firmware upgrades to come close to acceptable reliability standards.

Panasonic listens to its customers’ product development recommendations and we feel we’ve addressed many of them, including improvements in noise, skew and sensitivity in 1080/24p.

The HPX300 is still a great camera with built-in AVC-Intra, but, like cameras and cars, manufacturers continually develop new products. We listened to the market and made the needed fixes – thus, the HPX370 was born.

 

[Erik Olson]

Steve,

Welcome to DVXUser! Speaking out of turn for the whole forum, I think you'll find that we're all huge fans of Panasonic and, especially, the work they've done since the introduction of the DVX100 camera.

Over the years, Jan Crittenden has certainly brought Panasonic Broadcast closer to the production community. I hope you'll feel as appreciated and welcome here as she is.

e

 

[Steve Cooperman]

I think this thread/situation once again points out that these companies are not our friends, they make cameras for profit.

A buyer needs to have guarded belief in their marketing, always ask the tough questions and never assume they will take care of issues in the future.

Trust in a corporation is kind of a false situation. They want you to trust them for sales, but they also want to do whatever is neccessary to protect their own interests.

My main concern is this review process that has come about in the internet age. The situation mentioned by Phillip Bloom who had the camera for three hours and did the review. I bet a lot of people took that review seriously. There is quite a lot of implied pressure to say positive things in a review situation where the reviewer is chosen by the company, especially if the person wants to review anything in the future. (not to accuse PB of any deception) I have done one of these types of reviews and realised after it was completed that due to its quick turnaround, it was like an initial perception rather than an extensive test.

I remember seeing the HPX-300 footage that was posted by Andy Shipsides from Able Cine as he had the first little review out. He was saying how great the camera was and how great the footage was. Meanwhile, that was some of the noisiest footage from a pro cam I had ever seen. At that point I knew this cameras had some serious spin behind it.

The problem being that it is not easy to get some hands on time with these cameras to make a buying decision. So much commerce is internet based that there are not many local vendors and even then, the experience with them is often limited as well.

I post this not to point out faults as we all want to like the companies we buy from but as a reminder that always protect your interests first in the marketplace.

Regarding the comment, “I think this thread/situation once again points out that these companies are not our friends, they make cameras for profit.” Do you try to make a profit? Or, do you just shoot video for charity or maybe the love of shooting? I’m assuming that you and most people on DVXUser are video professionals, which mean they do this for a living and are looking to make money with their cameras. Panasonic P2 cameras make people money. All of our cameras have great workflows, which make you more efficient. All of this with great codecs, means you also get great video quality.

Regarding the overall theme of the 300 vs. 370, Panasonic listens to its customers’ product development recommendations and we feel we’ve addressed many of them, including improvements in noise, skew and sensitivity in 1080/24p. We felt it was important to incorporate customer suggestions in the HPX370 (with its new ULT imager) as soon as it was possible. These improvements allow the HPX370s performance to meet and even exceed leading ½” camcorders.

The HPX370 is a higher priced model than the HPX300 (HPX370: $11,700 SLP vs. HPX300, $10,700 SLP). So customers will pay more for the HPX370’s quality. Based on the list price difference and recent promotional incentives, the HPX370 will sell for $3,000 more than the HPX300.

The HPX300 was a master-quality camera that met the needs of a wide range of users. We feel the HPX370 will too, but users will pay a little more for this quality improvement.

 

[Ben Digedig]

Steve - good to have your input. Jan's past input was most valuable and somewhat unique in this field. Therefore much appreciated.

However do you not have an ounce of feeling that the 370 is the camera the 300 should have been all along? If that isn't possible to answer can you tell me why the video S/N was purposefully withheld on the 300, but is broadcast loud and clear on the 370? Straight question based 100% on facts.

Cheers

BD

 

[mikkowilson]

Aah the tough love on DVXuser.

Steve, welcome to DVXuser, we are of course very happy to have you on board.

The user base here is an interesting mix of users at every level. Some users are looking to but their first camcorder, while others have been in the business for decades.

There are definitely many opinions floating around (some based on more experience than others). But they are pretty much all due to our love of the craft and the common quest for the best tools for the job.

- Mikko

 

[ryaninoz]

Question for Steve

Will there be any upgrade path for 300 series buyers ? be it a hardware upgrade or trade in program like you offer towards the 3000/2700. Given the bad rep this camera has received in the industry it has very low resale value now. If Panasonic came up with something to help 300 owners I'm sure it would not only generate business for Panasonic but good will. As you can tell by the amount of posts and views here this is a hot topic for anyone who has purchased a 300 series - 300/301/302

 

[LeftyLarry]

Even today I'm not sure if I'd be able to foot $9200 for a 370 versus the effective $5762 I will have spent on the 300 when I get my $800 rebate! Not to say the price of the 370 won't come down in a while.

 

[mountainmedia]

Question for Steve

Will there be any upgrade path for 300 series buyers ? be it a hardware upgrade or trade in program like you offer towards the 3000/2700. Given the bad rep this camera has received in the industry it has very low resale value now. If Panasonic came up with something to help 300 owners I'm sure it would not only generate business for Panasonic but good will. As you can tell by the amount of posts and views here this is a hot topic for anyone who has purchased a 300 series - 300/301/302

x2

 

[Barry_Green]

Much of what you say is coldly accurate Barry, but I do think manufacturers would do well to have a little more respect for customers and their pockets. This is the purpose of making my view heard here.

I think we all agree with that. With the spread of information that the internet affords, manufacturers are going to have to be sensitive to customer issues.

What gets my ire up is when a company is *punished* for making progress. To me, that makes no sense.

So, ideally, the manufacturers are going to have to find a way to balance three factors:
1) Being able to constantly improve and update their products
2) Keeping customers happy, and
3) Not tipping their hand to give their competition an advantage.

An upgrade program would be ideal, but -- is it all really a matter of perception? Red has an upgrade program to turn a Mysterium into a Mysterium-X Red One. The cost is $5,000. You could turn an HPX300 into an U.L.T. HPX370 for less, just sell the HPX300 for $4300 and buy an HPX370 for $9200. That'd be a $4900 upgrade price for a new sensor, as opposed to Red's $5,000 upgrade price for a new sensor.

Even if its utopia I see no harm in customers seeking a better deal in return for guaranteed business and long term loyalty. All things I like to offer my clients after all...

I agree entirely, and Panasonic has earned a lot of loyalty specifically because they do listen, they participate with us, and they build products that incorporate our feedback. I think the feedback here is: we want an upgrade path. That message has been delivered to them.

Whether they *can* do it, or whether they *will* do it, or whether they'll change future product introductions, well, that all remains to be seen. The standard in the consumer electronics industry has not been to provide advance notice of any upgraded model -- they only provide advance notice of new models (like the AF100). If there was a brand-new large-sensor Varicam coming, we'd know about it months in advance. But if they were making a Varicam 3700A, we wouldn't know about it until it was released. That's just the way it works and pretty much always has worked. The DVX100B was a rare exception.

Nobody, for example, was notified of the HMC80, and -- hey, if anyone has the right to be p.o.'d about a new product dropping, it might be me. I just spent a HELL of a lot more money than most all of the camera buyers in this thread, by spending months working on a book, spending fees for my designer, printing costs, CD replication costs, and months of work to produce The HMC Book, covering both the HMC150 and HMC40. And then, three weeks after I introduce this new book, they just dropped an HMC80 on the market. Would I have appreciated some advance notice? Um, yeah. Let's understate that, yeah. I've spent more than most people make in a year, getting this new book out -- and it doesn't cover their most-recent model, just three weeks later.

So, yes, I do very well understand your frustrations. But do I think they should have just not released the HMC80? Or somehow waited until enough water had passed under the bridge? Of course not.

Basically I bristle at, reject, and will bitterly contest, any notion that has the net effect of punishing a manufacturer for making improvements to their product or advancing the state of the art. When a manufacturer announces something new and then the disenfranchised start chanting "let's file a class action lawsuit" or something, it's infuriating. Do these people not understand the concept of "killing the goose that lays the golden eggs"?

 

[Garion]

Hi All, ive been on this forum for a while but never felt the need to post a lot till i saw this thread.

I wanted to thank Barry, Philip Bloom and nature for their reviews and videos of the 370. As a long time lurker here i was a bit surprised at some of the venom in this thread. I thought this was a thread to discuss the benefits and abililties of the new 370 but it seems to have veered off course into a panny slaggging match?

For my part i am no professional filmmaker, i have a normal day job but my hobby and love is to make films for me or the odd company promo or dance video. i used to use a shoulder mount cam back in the 80's but nowadays have the dvx100b & hmc 151 (UK versions).

My only current options were either a second hand sony xdcam pdw-f350 or the Panny hpx300 as i have to fund this myself (i dont do this for the cash). After seeing this thread i will buy the 370 as i believe it will be the best i can afford for me at this time. i know it wil be replaced at some point and there will always be something better around the corner but if i keep on waiting i'll never get an upgrade.

I agree with Barry, Panasonic do seem to go out of their way to listen to us and try to make the sort of cameras we want to use. I feel sorry for the poor guys who im sure are reading these posts, they try to do the right thing and are getting flamed for their effort.

I just hope i can now find a Uk dealer who will admit to actually having some stock.... i actually had to refer two of the dealers to this very thread as panasonic Uk had "forgotten" to tell them about the new model ..groan

 

[Erik Olson]

Generally, we know that auto manufacturers are going to release the next year's models between September and November during the previous calendar year. We are well-informed on what new specifications will be added and what has been enhanced from the previous model. This information isn't much of a secret and I think consumers really appreciate that they can make an informed choice between the features, cost and other variables between one year's model and the one available subsequent to that.

The M4/3 100 camera that was just introduced this week represents precisely this kind of marketing model. Everyone seems comfortable with this cyclical pattern. We've been told what is coming months ahead of the production release, and, even better, have been virtually invited to provide feedback to Panasonic on desired form, features and functionality.

The way the HPX370 and HMC80 were introduced fall squarely outside of this type of development and marketing model.

This is a new age. One where consumers are more closely connected to manufacturers and the distribution chain. In the age of DVXUser, we've enjoyed an unprecedented open line of communication with a major electronics manufacturer. Dare I say collaboration?

We've become accustomed to feeling a connection to product managers. When that relationship changes, in even one instance, I think people react with surprise and take it too personally.

HPX300 owners have been asking for Panasonic's ear on the HPX300 technical issues literally since day one. So there is some pent-up frustration that nothing could be done to address the one shortcoming in what is otherwise an excellent camera. At first there was denial of the problem. Then silence. And now there is the perception that there is indeed a fix - albeit one packaged neatly in the form of an entirely new product. But a strangely familiar product.

If you subscribe to my take on our relationship with Panasonic, I think most owners would have appreciated seeing a statement like this, "...we have pushed the sensor on the HPX300 to the absolute edge of it's ability. Our engineers devoted many hours to resolving whatever issues we could without redesigning the camera from the ground-up. As a result, the noise issue has largely been rectified through firmware upgrades. Unfortunately, even utilizing the best technology we had at the time the camera was developed, the skew in 1080p modes will likely never be resolved. The HPX300 still represents an incredible value... In recent months, Panasonic has developed a new sensor and electronics that will go into the next generation of this camera to offer what we were unable to accomplish in the 300".

With RED, where no promises are made, but everything is above-board or at least communicated ad nauseum, the relationship is even closer. It is symbiotic and, I think, the products are better for it.

In my opinion, these factors are what is behind all the emotion in the case of the HPX370.

 

[GaryNattrass]

Hi All, ive been on this forum for a while but never felt the need to post a lot till i saw this thread.

I wanted to thank Barry, Philip Bloom and nature for their reviews and videos of the 370. As a long time lurker here i was a bit surprised at some of the venom in this thread. I thought this was a thread to discuss the benefits and abililties of the new 370 but it seems to have veered off course into a panny slaggging match?

For my part i am no professional filmmaker, i have a normal day job but my hobby and love is to make films for me or the odd company promo or dance video. i used to use a shoulder mount cam back in the 80's but nowadays have the dvx100b & hmc 151 (UK versions).

My only current options were either a second hand sony xdcam pdw-f350 or the Panny hpx300 as i have to fund this myself (i dont do this for the cash). After seeing this thread i will buy the 370 as i believe it will be the best i can afford for me at this time. i know it wil be replaced at some point and there will always be something better around the corner but if i keep on waiting i'll never get an upgrade.

I agree with Barry, Panasonic do seem to go out of their way to listen to us and try to make the sort of cameras we want to use. I feel sorry for the poor guys who im sure are reading these posts, they try to do the right thing and are getting flamed for their effort.

I just hope i can now find a Uk dealer who will admit to actually having some stock.... i actually had to refer two of the dealers to this very thread as panasonic Uk had "forgotten" to tell them about the new model ..groan

I will be interested in your feelings if you had spent nearly £20k on two 301's 11 months ago, I also asked my dealer (Prestons) for a good price on a 2700 last November I am still waiting as they could not get a good price out of panasonic!

The street price of the 371 will be £9,000 here so if I were you I would snap up a 301 at £6.5k or less and set it to the BBC settings which I will provide for you.

I see that the max gain is now +24db so all that has been done on the 371 is to lower the noise floor by 6db ( 2 stops) if you shoot and light to the BBC settings than you will have no problems with noise much like we have had.

 

[Barry_Green]

The M4/3 100 camera that was just introduced this week represents precisely this kind of marketing model. Everyone seems comfortable with this cyclical pattern. We've been told what is coming months ahead of the production release, and, even better, have been virtually invited to provide feedback to Panasonic on desired form, features and functionality.

The way the HPX370 and HMC80 were introduced fall squarely outside of this type of development and marketing model.

Exactly what I said -- if it's a replacement for an existing model, no advance notice is given. If it's an entirely new model, then they'll announce it long before release. HVX200 was pre-announced nine months early. HVX200A dropped on the market immediately. HPX170 was announced about 8 months early. HMC40 was announced about six months early. HMC80 just appeared.

If it's a refinement or change to an existing model, they don't pre-announce it. If it's a totally new model, that gets pre-announced.

With RED, where no promises are made, but everything is above-board or at least communicated ad nauseum, the relationship is even closer. It is symbiotic and, I think, the products are better for it.

Not sure how to take this statement -- isn't it a case of that with Red, almost nothing BUT promises are made? Well, not necessarily promises, but pronouncements? If they made more products and fewer announcements, people would probably be a lot happier with them. There's a lot of negative energy directed towards Red because of their marketing.

Furthermore, interestingly enough, Red has recently said that they won't be continuing with the same level of openness in development. Jim said something about it just being too much, and giving away too much info to others, and that they would have to play their cards closer to the vest now. I don't remember where that post was for the exact words, but I'm sure someone will know what I'm talking about and be able to post a link.

 

[ggrantly]

Given that a lot of users liked the 300, despite its shortcomings, would the owners that are angry now have preferred that Panny delayed the original product line release for the year it took to "improve it" to the 370 model? Would you have preferred to not have the 300 for the last year?

If Panny had the components and firmware to make a 370 a year ago, they would have released the 370 a year ago.

And now another question: Would anyone have preferred that Panny not released the 370 when they did? Should they have sat on the technology so that the 300 owners would be happier?

This is a no win for Panny. No matter which course they took, someone was not going to like it. Product cycle times are decreasing. Look at how fast the market changed with DSLRs. Panny counters with the new 100. I wonder if the 35mm adapter crowd will be unhappy if they just bought a cam with 35mm adapter that cost about the same as the new cam.

If you feel you have to keep up with the latest equipment each year to be happy, your wallet will suffer. Will that new 370 be so important to your business model that you have to upgrade? I'm sure it happens, but if someone likes your work, do they care what cam you use?

I do think it would have been nice for Panny to offer an upgrade path for the 300, even if it was a bit expensive.

Just my humble opinion.

Best Regards,
Grant

 

[Erik Olson]

Barry, I think we simply see this two different ways. And we'll have to disagree. But not without me ranting a bit.

Panasonic in the HPX300, didn't address skew. Just didn't. Other manufacturers have had better luck with their cameras - at least to the satisfaction of the professional production community.

The HPX300 1080p modes represent one glaring, much-touted, critical component of the Swiss Army knife that came right out of the box rusted shut.

Wouldn't that drive you crazy? Having an $8000+ pocket knife where the very best tool is simply unusable? Oh! It's in there, but it won't work. See it, right next to the little plastic toothpick? Yeah...you do. Dang! That's poo pooing frustrating! Would you ask the manufacturer for a fix? No. Guess not. If you did ask, which you should do nicely, you would be told that tool "doesn't matter anyway". Just use the other blade! That one right next to it - see it? That one does open! See it? Oh, that's a nail file? It won't cut? Not at all?! Come on! You're just being difficult. You're a..."complainer".

Instead of fixing it, even at additional cost to the larger user base, the manufacturer ignores the rusted-shut blade and simply goes back to the drawing board. Soon thereafter, they introduce, a very short year later, precisely the same knife in the same case with the same components. But now the affected blade opens and it is good. For the guy who gets the new knife. All the original knife owners should know that many knives come without full-functionality.

Now...some people call that product with a lack of full-functionality a beta unit, which indemnifies and insulates the manufacturer from much of the complaining. But I digress.

Interesting what you say about Jannard, who certainly has occasionally made himself and RED into punching bags through their open culture. REDOne, the fruit of that policy (and putting all the early glitch issues aside) definitely represented a major game-changer for the professional motion picture industry. In fact, the industry is still reeling in shock from REDOne's impact on the 35mm production market.

The Panaflex Gold was another - just look at how films were made before that. Ever had a BNCR on your shoulder?

Too much coffee. And now, I am off to shoot a spot today. On an HPX300 of all lumps. Love it or kinda like it, the HPX300 is here to stay.

 

[GaryNattrass]

First price to appear here in the UK is £11,750 thats $17625, it does say price to be confirmed but that is a lot more than a 301 when it first came out!

 

[Barry_Green]

Erik, I think you're selling me a little short. I screamed, ranted, and raved. I did the frickin' skew-off. I got perhaps as unpopular over there as I've ever been. I demanded and demanded and demanded.

Ultimately they came back and said "it cannot be fixed." They could fix the flash banding, but given the chipset that they had, the 1080/24p skew couldn't be improved. Period. So we reported that. And Jan said that there would be no change. And, I may point out, that report was made long before you bought, so you did have all the current, available information at the time.

Now, a new chipset has been developed. That's what was needed.

It's not that they weren't aware of the issue -- it's that they couldn't do anything about it with the technology they had.

So they went to the effort to produce a video to teach 300 users several techniques to get around the issue or minimize it. And I just started telling folks that if the skew is an issue, my preferred technique would be to shoot 720/24p for those shots where it's a problem, and 1080/24p for those where it isn't.

Nobody denied that the skew was there, and that in 1080/24p mode it was more than the Sony. They just said "we can't change that." It is what it is, it was what it was. What more could they do?

Apparently some of you are saying "well, they shouldn't have released the product" -- which is kind of ridiculous, because lots and lots of people seem quite happy with it for their intended purpose. So doesn't it all come back around to individual responsibility? If it wasn't suitable for what the buyer himself needs, isn't it incumbent upon the buyer to not buy it?

Look, let's examine it from every potential scenario. We'll start from their stated premise, which is that the could not reduce the skew in 1080/24p with the given chipset of the 300. So, they could:
1) Just don't release the product at all. Who does this help? What about all those who shoot interviews, who are perfectly happy with it? What about those who shoot 60p and 60i (the likes of NBC, or reality TV shooters). How do they benefit by the product not being on the market?

2) Release the product but disable the 1080/24p feature. Okay, sure, I guess they could have done this -- but is that really the right way to go? Had they done that, I *guarantee* you that the community would be screaming bloody murder -- "how DARE you dismiss my intelligence, you have the feature, give it to me and let me take the responsibility for using it properly!" In fact, we've been down this exact same road before -- remember the original DVX100, when they disabled the autofocus and gain in progressive-scan mode? We all remember how that one turned out -- we screamed, and they enabled those features in the 100A, and told us "good luck, they don't work as well as they do in interlaced" and we said "let us judge whether we know how to work with it or not."

3) They could have implemented a behind-the-scenes "fix" of maybe scanning the chip in 720/24p mode and then internally uprezzing it so that "nobody knows." After all, 720/24p doesn't have any skew-related shortcomings and in fact outperforms the EX1. But, obviously even as I'm making the suggestion, you can see the flaw in this argument. The second anybody noticed that the 1080/24p was lower res, they'd have an unholy poopstorm on their hands. And they could try to explain "we did it because you wouldn't have liked the skew", seriously -- what do you think the response would have been? Of course it would have been "let us be the judge of that! Give us the feature, if we don't like it we won't use it!"

Yet here we are, with people seriously arguing that they shouldn't have even released the camera at all.

Frankly I think this whole situation is ridiculous. IF IT DIDN'T WORK FOR SOMEONE, THEY SHOULDN'T BUY IT. That's what I did. I wanted one badly, but I couldn't justify it, so I never bought one.

And before anyone says anything about them improving it -- OF COURSE THEY DID. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO. AND YOU CAN BET YOUR HINDQUARTERS THAT SOME DAY, THERE'LL BE AN IMPROVED 370 TOO. And when they improve the 370, they won't owe existing 370 users any upgrades either! (of course we all hope that they would provide such, but they won't OWE it).

So -- Erik, you're a reasonable guy, a true professional, and one of my favorite contributors to this board. So seriously -- tell me, after reviewing the potential options they had available to them, which should they have done? Think it through from the potential reaction to each, and then let me know if you don't agree that they did the right thing -- they made a product available, we made the shortcomings known, and they let the buyer decide whether it was appropriate for them. And they improved technology as soon as they could.

Look at the alternatives -- should they not introduce new products? Should they disable features "for our own good"? Or should they not improve technology as fast as possible? Which is the message that we, the users, want to send to them?

My choice is: introduce the best you've got as soon as you can, and let me decide whether I want to buy it. And make an upgrade path, goll darn it!

 

[Erik Olson]

Barry, thanks for the compliment. I hold you in the highest regard as well. I absolutely don't mean to imply that you don't have a dog in this debate. To the contrary, I'm sure you advocated on behalf of HPX300 users and might well have been a central component in whatever updates did come down the pike for the model.

On this issue, I've been speaking to what other users are saying. My last post was really just a metaphorical representation of those feelings. I bought the HPX300 with my eyes wide open. Was I hoping for a software-derived improvement to skew - were we all? Absolutely yes.

I don't remember much (if any) backlash against the 200a when it was released, but perhaps I wasn't tuned to that as I have been to this update. Unreasonable or not, the situation is what it is.

I do remember that Panasonic definitely represented that cameras using CMOS and 3MOS required a "special" way of shooting. As a fellow who has always had a copy of the ASC Manual handy, I knew the basic rules for panning a camera. The variables that go into proper rendering at various focal lengths and so on. We know that entirely new rules existed for the HPX300 and they were far more limiting than what you must observe in typical 24 frame cinematography. Anyone selling skew as lag is disingenuous or has no understanding of how one medium renders images versus the other.

In the end, this whole debate is much ado about one functional element (on an otherwise terrific camera) that absolutely doesn't work for its intended purpose. That is to say, the intended purpose of this camera is: SHOULDER-MOUNTED SHOOTING. It is a shoulder-mount camera for God's sake! I'm no steadier than most shooters, but with a pair of grips mounted, I'm damn steady. And the HPX300 isn't suitable for this more than even 1/3 of the way toward telephoto in 1080p modes.

To answer your question, I would have released the HPX300 as it was. It would have been fantastic if there was a way to build some upgrade path into it once better sensors became available. I don't know what the expected reaction was, but this is an unfortunate outcome.

The new camera looks improved and that's about the highest endorsement I can make.

 

[mountainmedia]

My choice is: introduce the best you've got as soon as you can, and let me decide whether I want to buy it. And make an upgrade path, goll darn it!

We could debate this situation for weeks and never get anywhere. The point is, I (and most other 300 owners) purchased this camera with EYES WIDE OPEN. I knew about the skew issue and hoped it would be figured out as many technical issues today are. Also - when compared to the other cameras available last summer in my price range - IMO the 300 was the best, even with the flaws.

Fine. For me, the case is closed on that portion of it.

So, now here we are with the 370 and - it would seem - absolutely no reasonable upgrade path from Panasonic other than selling our 300s - taking a huge financial hit because few will want to buy it - and buying a new 370. Supposedly the entire imaging portion of the camera has been redesigned inside - even though it keeps the 300's identical from factor on the exterior. OK, perhaps that's true.

So then, here's my final point, which I've made before. Why can't Panasonic add up the cost of the new chips, new boards, new thing-a-majigs inside (and account for them with actual part numbers - how many are actually different?) and present this to us. Give us an ACTUAL FIGURE for what it would cost to make our 300s into 370s (and maybe, just maybe offer us a discount for being some of the few who evidently took the plunge on the 300). Please? WHY WOULD THIS POSSIBLY BE UNREASONABLE? Just because "it's not done in this industry?" I'm not asking for charity, I just want the opportunity to stay competitive in my field and not own the 2nd fiddle camera in town...

 

[hotchkiss]

This is a no win for Panny. No matter which course they took, someone was not going to like it. Product cycle times are decreasing. Look at how fast the market changed with DSLRs. Panny counters with the new 100. I wonder if the 35mm adapter crowd will be unhappy if they just bought a cam with 35mm adapter that cost about the same as the new cam.

I did an all day there and back trip to NAB yesterday. My first time in over 20 years in the biz. I can finally check that off the list.... The DSLR vibe was remarkable, accessories every where- what a phenomenon. Watching the footage from these cameras at the Canon theater was mind blowing.

It's clear to me that Panasonic ( and some of the others) would really like to put the VDSLR kitty back in the bag, the 100 is a key part of that strategy. Of course, it is also to head off bloodletting from Scarlet as well. It will be interesting to see what level of improvements are made to the GH2 if and when it is released. I suspect the plan will be to steer customers to the 100 through marginal upgrades and a bit of stasis in the GH2's development. Time will tell. I really hope that Nikon comes out with something more viable this year.

If you feel you have to keep up with the latest equipment each year to be happy, your wallet will suffer. Will that new 370 be so important to your business model that you have to upgrade? I'm sure it happens, but if someone likes your work, do they care what cam you use?

This comment would be utterly true if .... our cameras were used in a vacuum. If you are an amateur indy film maker then no big deal, but producers do prescribe cameras and production company's often have a list of accepted cameras. If the camera is solely for in -house, or closed loop productions then your comment has validity. Other wise it ignores a fundamental reality of the free lance world. Existing 300's will be judged by it's younger brother.

I do think it would have been nice for Panny to offer an upgrade path for the 300, even if it was a bit expensive.

Here , here.

I gotta say that I'm really excited about the DSLR, Scarlet and fill in-the-blank alternative camera solutions in the pike. That's where my dollars are going in the next round of purchases, as I'm going to hold off on any more investment in the P2 arena. I'll work my cameras into the ground for bread and butter production work, but my coin is going elsewhere. P2 is a temporal stop in the solid state media train, I see it being eclipsed in many ( not all) market segments very soon.

Interesting times.