Panasonic's new version of HPX300

GaryNattrass said:
I also do not recall panasonic saying that the 301 would have skew or bad noise when it was released they chose to ignore that due to their marketing and they are doing the same now!
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Unless anyone can find me a published S/N (signal to noise) spec for the 300/301 this statement holds absolutely true. Panasonic DELIBERATELY withheld this info. Then they wonder why people are kicking off...

I am disappointed in myself as I smelt this rat but still bought one due to production pressures - now they ram that 'oversight' and my naivety home.

Yes technology marches on but what you 'toughen up - shhht happens' guys dont get is that there is a feeling that they went to market too early. We ended up with a prototype that didn't do them or us much favours according to most recent camera yardsticks.

BD
 
Ben Digedig said:
I am disappointed in myself as I smelt this rat but still bought one due to production pressures - now they ram that 'oversight' and my naivety home.


BD
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Didn't your production pressure translate into money earned by buying the camera though - work you wouldn't have got if you'd have waited for the next version?
 
ROne said:
Didn't your production pressure translate into money earned by buying the camera though - work you wouldn't have got if you'd have waited for the next version?
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1. I must say it again: If the only argument in this subject is going to be the money earned with the camera, then you must respond what happens to those who bought a hpx300/301 in March 2010 when Panasonic was keeping secret of the hpx371...
 
The test footage of 370 in the net is mostly nature shots, which dont tell much of the camera in real life situations, in the big cities and with people.

I made tmy 301 a 720p-only camera right from the beginning, and as such, it has been a good one. End of strobing and jittering. Period.

Past weekend shot a music video, 3 nights with the streetlights. Yes, I had to use 50w and 100 w battery op light for the 3 talents, but the ambient background was great, with -3 gain, all over the streets.

If the camera would be more sensitive, maybe i would not "need" to light the talent, but then there would be no light design on the talent either, just "light by coincidence".

Another point of view: if the camera would have larger sensor, I would also need a focus puller all the time. Now I can handle it myself based on the numbers on the lens. Then, If I need shallow dof I use M2 (reasonably priced compared to letus).

Counted in the would-be rental rate my camera paid itself back in 4 months, I will be using it for few years more, so I cannot really complain. Only thing I would complain about, its marketing hype about 1080 modes, which just dont work on the real life.
 
ROne said:
Didn't your production pressure translate into money earned by buying the camera though - work you wouldn't have got if you'd have waited for the next version?
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Yes, if you discount hiring, but that doesn't make it feel like the right decision now though, just a forced and one that was purposely only a partially informed one by the manufacturer witholding key S/N info.

Every case/business scenario is different. I have to live with this cam for many more years to get my ROI. If it was out 3 times a week at £150pd then I guess I wouldn't be making my point here...

Its the guys with 370 that will hire now - who'll want a 301 for the same money? Thanks Panny.

BD
 
denonatum said:
1. I must say it again: If the only argument in this subject is going to be the money earned with the camera, then you must respond what happens to those who bought a hpx300/301 in March 2010 when Panasonic was keeping secret of the hpx371...
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Then I will say it a again: That would be me then. We did exactly this.

Because:

The HPX 371 wasn't available

I had a job that needed a controllable lens (hire was £1000) so that was money in my bag.

We got a good price (and I thought to myself a new camera will be around the corner) and this was reflected in what we paid. (£2500 less)

If you'd purchased one in March you were probably intending on using it way beyond one month.
 
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Ben Digedig said:
Yes, if you discount hiring, but that doesn't make it feel like the right decision now though, just a forced and one that was purposely only a partially informed one by the manufacturer witholding key S/N info.

Every case/business scenario is different. I have to live with this cam for many more years to get my ROI. If it was out 3 times a week at £150pd then I guess I wouldn't be making my point here...

Its the guys with 370 that will hire now - who'll want a 301 for the same money? Thanks Panny.

BD
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Okay, so what you do is undercut the 370 hirers by a percentage. You say, "You can hire 90% of the 370 for X amount less." What you lose in discount you make up for by greater turnover.

Turn it into a positive. There is always a market.

Our HVX200, HPX171 still go out on jobs - there is still a place.

Also, we never market ourselves on our equipment, we market ourselves on our SKILLS. Your skills don't get replaced by a manufacturer.
 
ROne said:
Then I will say it a again: That would be me then. We did exactly this.

Because:

The HPX 371 wasn't available

I had a job that needed a controllable lens (hire was £1000) so that was money in my bag.

We got a good price (and I thought to myself a new camera will be around the corner) and this was reflected in what we paid. (£2500 less)

If you'd purchased one in March you were probably intending on using it way beyond one month.
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:) So I was talking about you..

But you have a different profile. You said (1) you were aware of a new camera and (2) that you didnt have a choice... So I think you made a good decision.

I'm talking about people who didnt knew of a new camera (and in March we were expecting something like a new hpx500, something completely different) and who did have a choice. They could have a choice if they knew what Panasonic was hidding. Is that fair?

I'm happy with the upgrade, because now the camera is better and that is the most important. But the secret about it a bad move! They didnt had the courage to say in February or March that there was going to be a new version, so people knew they could buy a cheaper hpx301 or wait for the improved hpx371...
 
Mark Smith said:
Put NAB on your calendar, then never, ever buy a camera in the 2 months before NAB.
End of discussion.
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Why not? You just have to earn the money in those two months like a good professional :)))))

NAB is in my calendar, and that is why I'm waiting for my hpx371 and didnt make a mistake (in my particular case), but I dont like this state of things... Not even a thousand NABs would justify unethical behavior from the companys. There is nothing innocent in the now classical expression "today announced the immediate availability" - it means that no one had the chance to make a choice in the previous months... Is NAB so special that cameras fall from the sky?
 
Ben Digedig said:
Its the guys with 370 that will hire now - who'll want a 301 for the same money? Thanks Panny.
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Yes, and that's my fear. For half of my clients who don't know a thing about camera technology, it won't matter. But for the other half who ask for Panasonic/P2 in particular, I can see the thought process going something like this:

1) Should we hire the guy with the 300 and know we'll have more noise, less sensitivity and a good chance of skew in 1080p24... or

2) Hire the other guy who has the EXACT SAME CAMERA (370) - but with all those issues fixed/mitigated.

Which would you choose as a producer? As for the comment about "using the situation to our advantage," so now I have to discount my rate by - what - $350 (or more?) to compete with another guy who has the "non-beta-test" version of my camera? Sounds great to me...
 
Just saw this on mikko's twitter feed from NAB:

"No upgrade path from HPX300 to HPX370. 370 has all new processing boards."
 
If you really feel that you have been sold a defective product and
that it will cause you financial hardship, then you should hire
an attorney and take Panasonic to court.

jeff
 
Ben Digedig said:
Unless anyone can find me a published S/N (signal to noise) spec for the 300/301 this statement holds absolutely true. Panasonic DELIBERATELY withheld this info. Then they wonder why people are kicking off...

I am disappointed in myself as I smelt this rat but still bought one due to production pressures - now they ram that 'oversight' and my naivety home.
BD
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Ben, please take this as it's intended, which is not to rub salt in any open wounds. :) I'm hurting a bit myself...

While one can be frustrated with Panasonic for certain aspects of the eclipsed 300/370 issue (and I certainly am). The decision to buy or not to buy the 300 ultimately rests on the consumer. Test footage was out there, reviews, and user feedback etc... If folks didn't know the actual S/N numbers and that was a big consideration, then they would have been well served to hold off buying one.

We'll be waiting a long time for manufacturer's to write a treatise on their product's shortcomings. The acceptability of technical or specification shortcomings are for us, the consumer to decide. I'm going to exercise even more scrutiny the next time I purchase a camera of tis magnitude. Frankly, I'm also quite a bit more skeptical of Panasonic at this point in time.

I just hope that my, yours and all others 300's continue to have earnings potential for a while to come. Mine is paid off and making profit. Given my client roster, my 300's earning life span will continue on.... gulp , fingers crossed. That being said the 300 will now be compared to, and it's value determined by the presence of the 370- that is inescapable fact. The only mitigating factor will be the technical ignorance/ interest of the client or to the degree that the 300's shortcomings are an issue in the production.

Now where was those low noise BBC settings that Gary Nattress posted...? ;-/
 
mountainmedia said:
Yes, and that's my fear. For half of my clients who don't know a thing about camera technology, it won't matter. But for the other half who ask for Panasonic/P2 in particular, I can see the thought process going something like this:

1) Should we hire the guy with the 300 and know we'll have more noise, less sensitivity and a good chance of skew in 1080p24... or

2) Hire the other guy who has the EXACT SAME CAMERA (370) - but with all those issues fixed/mitigated.

Which would you choose as a producer? As for the comment about "using the situation to our advantage," so now I have to discount my rate by - what - $350 (or more?) to compete with another guy who has the "non-beta-test" version of my camera? Sounds great to me...
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That strikes me as a valid concern.

On the other hand, I would hope that in most cases the producer would hire the girl or guy who best fits the production; fit by virtue of talent and/or skill. There are always examples of great people producing more creative work with (so-called) "inferior" tools.

Sadly, I imagine that isn't always the case in a world where we use "specs" to decide what is better even if they're not representative of anywhere near the whole picture.
 
where is Jan ? in the past she would step in and speak on behalf of Panasonic. I've never known this board to be shown such silence from Panasonic over an issue that has upset so many.
 
ryaninoz said:
where is Jan ? in the past she would step in and speak on behalf of Panasonic. I've never known this board to be shown such silence from Panasonic over an issue that has upset so many.
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ryaninoz,

Barry mentioned that she is no longer the product manager for the 300.
 
videomagician said:
Just saw this on mikko's twitter feed from NAB:

"No upgrade path from HPX300 to HPX370. 370 has all new processing boards."
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Just to elaborate on this...


I spoke with some folks at Panasonic today - including a long chat with Jan - and though the big change from the 300 to the 370 is the new ULT sensor block; a big part of what makes that possible is new sensor reading & processing technology; which means that there are multiple major boards in the camera (including possibly the motherboard [I would expect so] - we didn't go into exact details - that are brand new.

So despite the changes being in the sensor, and an other wise similar camera operationally (and on the outside of course); the 370 is majorly a new camera on the inside; it's not anything that could be very easily upgraded. Sounds like it really is a new camera in the way it shoots the images.

- Mikko
 
How about a rebate for current 300 owners?
What kind of price do you think an owner will be able to get on Ebay when twenty people are trying to sell the same problematic camera at the same time? 4000?
I see the 300 to the 370 upgrade cycle totally out of line with Panasonic's previous models. The DVX 100 to 100A cycle took how long? the HVX200 to 200A took how long? When you purchase a camera, and the camera company changes the game in such a short time period it really calls into question the companies production judgement. Maybe Panasonic should take a page from RED in the way they bring out new models and generate good will to loyal customers.
 
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