mountainmedia
Well-known member
That's it guys, sounds like we need to start a "300 Owners Anonymous Support Group." I'll start. "My name is Chris and I'm a 300 owner..."
Panasonic's new version of HPX300
- Thread starter photojournalist
- Start date
Ben Digedig
Well-known member
Ben, please take this as it's intended, which is not to rub salt in any open wounds.I'm hurting a bit myself...
While one can be frustrated with Panasonic for certain aspects of the eclipsed 300/370 issue (and I certainly am). The decision to buy or not to buy the 300 ultimately rests on the consumer. Test footage was out there, reviews, and user feedback etc... If folks didn't know the actual S/N numbers and that was a big consideration, then they would have been well served to hold off buying one. /
I admire your pragmatic approach mate. If only time were on my/our side a bit more as I was one of the first in UK with the camera and am again punished for having faith in a company and being a dumbarse early adopter (the cam was also on an HD NTSC job within 2hrs out the box - it was THAT tight!!!). There was no real reviews/facts out at that time... I had to make a call.
This early adoption hit is in much the same way as I have lost hundreds on mobiles (like the very flawed N97 and P990). I e-bayed those and took the hit. This situation is however is business not toys and for a far greater sum.
I have been reminded to sit on my hands and hire more as I guess there will be no solution/help in this matter. Glad you didnt smack me 'round the chops too though :shocked:.
BD
Bassman2003
Veteran
I think this thread/situation once again points out that these companies are not our friends, they make cameras for profit.
A buyer needs to have guarded belief in their marketing, always ask the tough questions and never assume they will take care of issues in the future.
Trust in a corporation is kind of a false situation. They want you to trust them for sales, but they also want to do whatever is neccessary to protect their own interests.
My main concern is this review process that has come about in the internet age. The situation mentioned by Phillip Bloom who had the camera for three hours and did the review. I bet a lot of people took that review seriously. There is quite a lot of implied pressure to say positive things in a review situation where the reviewer is chosen by the company, especially if the person wants to review anything in the future. (not to accuse PB of any deception) I have done one of these types of reviews and realised after it was completed that due to its quick turnaround, it was like an initial perception rather than an extensive test.
I remember seeing the HPX-300 footage that was posted by Andy Shipsides from Able Cine as he had the first little review out. He was saying how great the camera was and how great the footage was. Meanwhile, that was some of the noisiest footage from a pro cam I had ever seen. At that point I knew this cameras had some serious spin behind it.
The problem being that it is not easy to get some hands on time with these cameras to make a buying decision. So much commerce is internet based that there are not many local vendors and even then, the experience with them is often limited as well.
I post this not to point out faults as we all want to like the companies we buy from but as a reminder that always protect your interests first in the marketplace.
A buyer needs to have guarded belief in their marketing, always ask the tough questions and never assume they will take care of issues in the future.
Trust in a corporation is kind of a false situation. They want you to trust them for sales, but they also want to do whatever is neccessary to protect their own interests.
My main concern is this review process that has come about in the internet age. The situation mentioned by Phillip Bloom who had the camera for three hours and did the review. I bet a lot of people took that review seriously. There is quite a lot of implied pressure to say positive things in a review situation where the reviewer is chosen by the company, especially if the person wants to review anything in the future. (not to accuse PB of any deception) I have done one of these types of reviews and realised after it was completed that due to its quick turnaround, it was like an initial perception rather than an extensive test.
I remember seeing the HPX-300 footage that was posted by Andy Shipsides from Able Cine as he had the first little review out. He was saying how great the camera was and how great the footage was. Meanwhile, that was some of the noisiest footage from a pro cam I had ever seen. At that point I knew this cameras had some serious spin behind it.
The problem being that it is not easy to get some hands on time with these cameras to make a buying decision. So much commerce is internet based that there are not many local vendors and even then, the experience with them is often limited as well.
I post this not to point out faults as we all want to like the companies we buy from but as a reminder that always protect your interests first in the marketplace.
Barry_Green
Moderator
There is no pressure applied whatsoever, at least on any product I've ever reviewed. Yes, it's an obvious situation that if you say something bad about the product, then that manufacturer might be less likely to ask you to review their next product -- but so what? That's like movie companies that refuse to screen their films for reviewers -- everyone knows what that means.
A reviewer is useless if he doesn't stick to his guns and call it like he sees it.
Agreed. Which is why you'll see that I almost post mine as "First Look". I don't call it a "review" unless I've used the product extensively. When I do a magazine review, you can be sure it isn't a "first look". But for stuff like this, I call it "first look" because that's what it is, and there really isn't time to do a proper review. You need a couple of weeks of living with a product before you're really able to properly review it.
And that's what Philip said too; it's why he took the 370 out for a couple of weeks, instead of a three-hour test drive.
That is always what you must do. Even with reviews, those are one person's opinion. If a bunch of reviewers all agree (if you get me and Adam Wilt and Philip Bloom and Ned Soltz all saying the same thing) then it's probably a pretty good indicator, but even then it's still up to you to decide if the product is appropriate for your needs.
I think Panasonic is stating - through casual, offline channels - that the 370 is, from an internal components standpoint, entirely changed from the 300. They share no common electronics.
Taking this at face value, a conversation on upgrading the 300 to 370 specification doesn't make sense. They've gone to a truly new model and that's that. Now, if it was discovered that only the sensor block had been changed, I would take exception to Panasonic's position of ignoring a large contingent of customers. But, again, they're so much as saying that this is not the case through "casual channels".
Going back and looking at the top-tier video reviews from the first quarter in 2009, it is a shame that more wasn't done to highlight the skew issue. In not one review did anyone pan the camera except in the widest shots during their tests. One only has to punch in on the 300 to focus up once to see the spectacular level of skew and Jello effect. It is up to the community to say whether this type of footage should have been included in reviews by objective third-party sources.
Somewhat later, Barry Green shot the go cart sequences to answer the question of skew. I don't doubt the sincerity of his motives or the resulting work, but the message I took from that piece was, "...this is how you have to shoot around CMOS" and that's that.
I have offered in the past (and will continue to offer) to take preview model cameras to working television productions and put them through their paces as I did with the HVX200. That camera outperformed (in both color and latitude) the 1/2" XDCam PDW-F350s (Canon HD glass / highest bitrate 35Mbps) we were using at the time on that four unit show for TLC.
My belief is that, in this age of online research and purchasing, people rely too heavily on reviews they find on the Internet when they should be doing hands-on testing for themselves. For many consumers in smaller markets, getting your hands on a production model before purchasing can be really difficult.
In a perfect world, reviewers need to take a stand and post their findings, warts and all.
Taking this at face value, a conversation on upgrading the 300 to 370 specification doesn't make sense. They've gone to a truly new model and that's that. Now, if it was discovered that only the sensor block had been changed, I would take exception to Panasonic's position of ignoring a large contingent of customers. But, again, they're so much as saying that this is not the case through "casual channels".
Going back and looking at the top-tier video reviews from the first quarter in 2009, it is a shame that more wasn't done to highlight the skew issue. In not one review did anyone pan the camera except in the widest shots during their tests. One only has to punch in on the 300 to focus up once to see the spectacular level of skew and Jello effect. It is up to the community to say whether this type of footage should have been included in reviews by objective third-party sources.
Somewhat later, Barry Green shot the go cart sequences to answer the question of skew. I don't doubt the sincerity of his motives or the resulting work, but the message I took from that piece was, "...this is how you have to shoot around CMOS" and that's that.
I have offered in the past (and will continue to offer) to take preview model cameras to working television productions and put them through their paces as I did with the HVX200. That camera outperformed (in both color and latitude) the 1/2" XDCam PDW-F350s (Canon HD glass / highest bitrate 35Mbps) we were using at the time on that four unit show for TLC.
My belief is that, in this age of online research and purchasing, people rely too heavily on reviews they find on the Internet when they should be doing hands-on testing for themselves. For many consumers in smaller markets, getting your hands on a production model before purchasing can be really difficult.
In a perfect world, reviewers need to take a stand and post their findings, warts and all.
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mountainmedia
Well-known member
Here's what I'd really like to know. What's the production cycle for a "totally new" camera like the 370 (sarcasm intended). In other words, when was an HPX370 model put in the works? Did Panasonic only start work on it after realizing they weren't selling as many 300's as they'd planned (and would they only base this on about 6 months of data)? Or was this revision already in the works? We'll never know, of course, but it does make one wonder.
If the 370 only came about in the last 6 months or so (I figure they'd need at least that much time to research new parts, reconfigure the electronics, put it into production, etc.), that's still only 6 months after the release of the 300. I have really come to question this company and their utter disregard for clients who "early adopted" the 300. The "too bad, and thanks for helping us come out with a better version" attitude can't help but leave a bitter taste in my mouth the more I think about it. Add to that the aforementioned real worry I now have about booking work with technically-aware producers who would rather have the 370 instead of my 300.
If the 370 only came about in the last 6 months or so (I figure they'd need at least that much time to research new parts, reconfigure the electronics, put it into production, etc.), that's still only 6 months after the release of the 300. I have really come to question this company and their utter disregard for clients who "early adopted" the 300. The "too bad, and thanks for helping us come out with a better version" attitude can't help but leave a bitter taste in my mouth the more I think about it. Add to that the aforementioned real worry I now have about booking work with technically-aware producers who would rather have the 370 instead of my 300.
To answer your question: the hpx370 was delivered to Panasonic by an angel in April 1, 2010. He said: in the beginning there was skew and noise, but now you can use the 1080 mode. Alleluia!
Barry's new video clearly shows that skew is still an issue in the 370. At least at the same level as is exhibited in the EX3.
mikkowilson
Steadi-Guru
Skew is still there in the 370, but much reduced.
- Mikko
- Mikko
Ben Digedig
Well-known member
Ben Digedig
Well-known member
You know, I paid to hire an EX3 for a day before buying the HPX301. This was being VERY diligent to prove its 'semi shoulder mount' design. I decide I didnt have a 'semi shoulder' and bought the normal ergonomics HPX 301. Just saying...
BD
videomagician
Well-known member
So, they question now is "Is the HPX-300 an end of life product and will there be any more firmware updates?"
Barry_Green
Moderator
That wasn't me. That was Michael Caporale.
My preview time with the HPX300 was the Africa footage. And in that case we were using a 21x zoom lens, so of course the jello was astonishing at that magnification. At the time we presumed it was comparable to the EX1, so we didn't worry about it. Nobody would be using a 21x lens (with doubler!) so if there was a whole lot of jello, that was to be expected, so it didn't even occur to us that it was excessive.
Later, I specifically set out to quantify exactly what the skew was, and what difference there was, resulting in the famous "skew-off" test.
I don't know how anyone could do much more than that to educate the community and the potential buyer.
Obviously some people do get to use them beforehand; this very thread is an example of someone who got it, who chose to publicly release the info. Erik, you should take your request to Steve Cooperman, or to the regional sales manager for the southeast area. Those are the guys who decide who to farm the test cameras out to for feedback.
Agreed -- which is why in any review I do, I take painstaking efforts to document the methodology, so that anyone and everyone is free to exactly recreate the scenario and see what I did to bring about the results that I got.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Having been in product development before, for hardware and for software products, I'd say that the replacement was at least talked about and verbalized before the original model even shipped. Obviously they have to be working on whatever improvements they can, as soon as possible, as long as possible. I would expect that the 370 was begun in earnest the day after the 300 shipped.
Or should they sit on their hands and watch the market pass them by?
Look, is it coincidental that the HPX370 and the XF305 (or whatever the new Canon is) were announced at the same time? They're both 1/3" CMOS 1920x1080 3-chip sets... hmmm... curious... could it be, could it be that they're using the exact same chipset? Here's a history lesson for those who don't know -- the Canon XL1 used the same chipset as the Panasonic AG-EZ1.
So what's Panasonic to do -- let Canon come out with a camera with better performance, because -- what, they owe it to their prior customers to NOT keep pace with technological development?!?!?!
"Hey Panasonic, how come a Canon handheld camera has better performance, better skew, and lower noise than your big HPX300?"
"Um, well, because ... um, because we came out with the HPX300, and now because some people bought it, we just don't think it'd be right to do any improvements at all, so ... yeah, we're just gonna sit here and try to sell our older product, because ... because it's the right thing to do."
Really?
Really?
Okay, look -- technology improves all the time. Apple sure as hell isn't going to give iPhone 3G customers a rebate or upgrade to an iPhone 3Gs. Lenovo isn't going to give a T400 buyer a rebate or upgrade to a T410. Sony didn't go around giving F23 buyers an upgrade to the F35. Intel didn't go around giving Core 2 Duo buyers upgrades to Core i7 chips. Stuff gets better all the time. And it gets better as fast as it can.
If you don't like it and can't keep up with it, then the only rational solution is to quit buying gear, and instead rent. That way you can always be assured of having the most-current, most-up-to-date equipment. The days of being an owner-operator and buying your BVW600 and milking it for 10 years... those days are over. You should be buying gear that does the job you need done. If your job is dependent on having the most-current equipment at all times, renting might be the way to go.
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Firmware updates are for bug fixes. If bugs are found, you can be certain that a firmware update will be issued to fix it.
Heck, every HPX300 owner has at least four years of warranty coverage to go! The way you're asking your question, it makes it sound like they're abandoning it. They've superseded it, but there will be support for years and years.
steve phillipps
Veteran
They're not only for bug fixes, they can be for improving/enabling features.
Steve
True.
My feeling is that it is up to the buyer to research the camera. Reviews from working professionals play into this - to what extent they should color a buyer's decision is up to the buyer. In the end, they are going to own the product, not the reviewer.
Thanks, Barry, I will do this. Your reviews feel completely agnostic to me, and I believe that prospective buyers certainly appreciate it anytime someone takes the time to pair like-specification equipment in a comparison environment.
Going back and taking a critical look at the other video reviews that preceded the production model release of the HPX300, I believe others will concur that they were more akin to demo / brand reels than an objective and disassociated examination of the product. A little too much enthusiasm for the HPX300 (and it's myriad good features) and absolutely no mention of the few shortcomings that have plagued it since its release.
I had the opportunity to use the HPX300 in the company of a Panasonic representative early in 2009 and we had a candid discussion about the 1080 skew issue that day at WH Platts in Charlotte. In the end, I decided that the camera's recording quality and other features trumped the 1080 issue. Other buyers might not have had the luxury of a hands-on experience and they will rely heavily on any opinions they can find - especially those of working professionals.
Ben Digedig
Well-known member
Much of what you say is coldly accurate Barry, but I do think manufacturers would do well to have a little more respect for customers and their pockets. This is the purpose of making my view heard here.
In fact, in a similar (if worse) vein if I was the owner of an HD only EX1 and the next day Sony announced the EX1R (that now does SD too) but that firmware function is NOT available to me unless I buy a whole new camera I'd be striking them off my Xmas card list too.
Even if its utopia I see no harm in customers seeking a better deal in return for guaranteed business and long term loyalty. All things I like to offer my clients after all...
BD
In fact, in a similar (if worse) vein if I was the owner of an HD only EX1 and the next day Sony announced the EX1R (that now does SD too) but that firmware function is NOT available to me unless I buy a whole new camera I'd be striking them off my Xmas card list too.
Even if its utopia I see no harm in customers seeking a better deal in return for guaranteed business and long term loyalty. All things I like to offer my clients after all...
BD
Steve Cooperman
Member
Steve Cooperman
Member
Regarding the comment, “The 2700, 3700 are just to expensive for the work I'm getting. To me they are over priced anyway. But 4:4:4 would be so sweet.”
Please note that Panasonic has reintroduced the VariCam 2700 trade-up. When you trade-in your professional camcorders (working, not in pieces – including view finder) cameras such as DVCPROHD/50/25, Sony HDCam, Sony DigiBeta, Sony XDCAM (optical disc), Sony EX1/3,
Ikegami or even a Red, you can purchase the AJ-HPX2700 for $19,950.
This is a pretty awesome deal. I know this particular string is about the HPX370, which is an awesome new camera for the price point, however, the overall competitive cameras being discussed are 1/3” and ½” cameras a little below or above the $10k price range. With the VariCam 2700, we’re talking about a 2/3” CCD native HD camera with 1080/720p switchability, variable frame rates and Panasonic’s Film-Rec technology for under $20k.
Also, the VariCam 3700 is still a great camera, including full-raster 1920x1080 on P2 cards with 4:4:4 dual-link output. This leads to great workflows, including the ability to record full resolution in camera and simultaneously output 4:4:4. Then, you just edit the p2 and go back and conform any needed 4:4:4 content.