P2 Future ?

[MikeD]

Everyone knows that sony went price slashing to help get sales in the networks. It's hard to say no to a $14 000 price cut.

But Rob whether the price of P2 cards is the Minor or major part of the problem it is a problem. I am one of the many that helped the figures that you are using. I bought a 502 thinking that the price of these cards would go down, especially when the networks take it on and the increase the sales of the cards. But they haven't taken them on which means the Price of these cards are not going to come down. Panasonic are making a small fortune on these cards but lost alot of sales of cameras because of it.

It's MII all over again.

 

[Rob Myers]

SO Ill go back to it. Mike, Tom, theres been a few willing to buy into Pana here. Guess where I am a bit raw, as we all said Aus is Sony centric, to that end I think Pana needs (not to hold our hands etc), but at least let us be competitive. Australia isnt like other countries. Barry Green knows what its like here, first hand. Would be good if they made the effort to talk to us at least. Just IMO.

Hi Noel,

You make it sound like there are 3 P2 users in Australia...

"Would be good if they made the effort to talk to us at least.", "let us be competitive" What is it you are asking of us?

 

[Rob Myers]

Everyone knows that sony went price slashing to help get sales in the networks. It's hard to say no to a $14 000 price cut.

But Rob whether the price of P2 cards is the Minor or major part of the problem it is a problem. I am one of the many that helped the figures that you are using. I bought a 502 thinking that the price of these cards would go down, especially when the networks take it on and the increase the sales of the cards. But they haven't taken them on which means the Price of these cards are not going to come down. Panasonic are making a small fortune on these cards but lost alot of sales of cameras because of it.

It's MII all over again.

Hi Mike,

The number of Australian Networks that adopt P2 has NOTHING to do with the price of P2 card down under. Never has and never will. The number that take it up around the world has already had an effect.

As we've been saying for over three years, the price of P2 cards will continue to drop. I have an idea where P2 cards MAY BE next year and it will surprise you.

If you think Panasonic are "making a small fortune on these cards " you are very much mistaken, but I don't expect you will believe me. If Sony's card prices were a lot cheaper than P2 you may have a point. Of course we've lost sales due to the price of the cards. P2 is not for everyone, neither is Xdcam.

I have sold MII. Now that was hard work. P2 is nothing like MII.

 

[Rob Myers]

Didn't help the fact that all the P2 cameras that the ABC bought (in Brisbane at least) are still packed in the boxes. Now they are all useless as they are the old SD models.
IMHO Panasonic had a winner on their hands but lost it with the cost of the cards. It is a shame as I like my P2 but looks like I may have to go to the 700 next year.

Hi Mike,

That's quite a statement. If you want to know the truth, most of the cameras purchased by the ABC have been rolled out. The ABC made a decision to leave the SX cameras in service until the Grass Valley news systems had been rolled out. I believe that Brisbane is last on the list.

ABC News has SD cameras because that is what they wanted. Do you think they purchased SD last year thinking they replace it for HD a few years later? The ABC is happy with SD for news. As is Seven who purchased a small number of SD Xdcam cameras for news at Martin Place.

Tom, Is your SPX800 useless?

 

[MikeD]

Hi Mike,

If Sony's card prices were a lot cheaper than P2 you may have a point. Of course we've lost sales due to the price of the cards. P2 is not for everyone, neither is Xdcam.

I have sold MII. Now that was hard work. P2 is nothing like MII.

It's interesting that the sony cards are about the same as P2 prices. Looks to me that they have priced them at that level as they can. I bet if the "surprise" you mention happens, sony will slash the price of their cards to about the same level. It would probably work the other way as well.

Forgive me for thinking that your statement about next year seems to fit my point earlier on about "rumours".

 

[Rob Myers]

Couldn't have said it better myself

I know of one network here that was interested in P2 but went to sony and the main reason was P2 cards costs. They ended up taking XDcam to the olympics as it would have cost more than the cameras to equipped each cameraman with enough cards to cover the 2 weeks of shooting. Yes they can download but I ask all the cameramen here that have done shoots like that, how long would it take for you to get very tired of having to do that every day.
I've had my 502 for about a year now and when I bought it the rumour mill was saying that the cost of the cards will fall soon. This is a rumour that we are still hearing and to be honest hasn't happened yet.
To be honest I think the race has been run and the winner is not P2. Such a shame.

Hi Mike,

Your first sentence is simply not true. And they took the SD Dvcam Xdacm cameras to the Olympics because they hadn't been rolled out into News at the time.

Just be patient for a little longer on the price of the cards. We are aware the cost of cards is a big issue for potential and existing users. We are working on it.

 

[Rob Myers]

It's interesting that the sony cards are about the same as P2 prices. Looks to me that they have priced them at that level as they can. I bet if the "surprise" you mention happens, sony will slash the price of their cards to about the same level. It would probably work the other way as well.

Forgive me for thinking that your statement about next year seems to fit my point earlier on about "rumours".

Hi Mike,

You are actually correct but not because Sony and Panasonic conspire on prices of cards as many believe. There are significant developments that are taking place in the area of memory that will hopefully change the playing field for all.

The only "rumour" that has come from Panasonic for years is that P2 card prices will fall. The changes that MAY happen next year are the first "rumours" from Panasonic that I have heard.

 

[Rob Myers]

Hi Guys,
Good discussion indeed, Pana have not "kept the Pace" as Sony has, Too many promises, Not enough delivery,
olinevideo.com.au

Hi Tom,

Such as?

 

[k2director]

Also the best part pf P2 dumping on field is the painfully slow transfer speeds. if i use XDCAM Disks i shoot just like tapes forget it for a while then look back to edit w/o even bothering of making 2copies of each card shoot if from a P2 style shoot !!!

P2 is Pain2much !

I feel it but someone else who is enduring the pain of owning a P2 setup will certainly beg to differ. I realised it late but SONY is a clear winner !!! even a p2 user says that in his mind when he has to sit thu shoots & jumble cards to dump on HDDs & also then to keep the HDD safe. Man one has to carry so much of P2 gear... god forbid any P2 user if he has to go for a long shoot thru a place with nill or min power conn then he will certainly have to think million times as to how will he ever be able to make dump of p2 cards

Sony CLAPPING this is for you !!!

I think you're missing some of P2's biggest advantages. Let's say you're recording all day long. Put 5 32 GB cards in your camera; at 720P, that's something like 6 hours of recording time. If you had 64 GB cards (due soon, supposedly), then you've got about 12 hours of recording time (or 6 hours for 1080). That beats the hell out of your XDCAM option, which is having to put a new disk into the camera every hour, and carry the things around with you all day.

With P2's recording times, most productions can shoot ALL DAY without offloading clips. Then, go back to your office or hotel room, and put the cards into a 5 card reader, and dump them to a hard drive in one single operation (go to sleep or go to dinner while all 5 cards copy automatically). I'd like to see you capture all your footage manually from **12 different XDCAM disks** Can you imagine what kind of a hassle that would be? Manually inserting one disk? Then the next? Then the next....etc? But with the bigger capacity P2 cards, it's hardly an issue.

Also, no P2 shooter in their right mind would archive to Blu-Ray disks. You archive to hard drive, which have huge capacities, which let you edit right from the drive, and which are cheap cheap cheap. And long-term archives go to LTO-3 or 4 tape, which can store 800 GB per tape (more for LTO4).

 

[Tom 4]

Hi Rob,
Ahhh for the old Ampex days of selling tape, that was a long time ago..I used to get U-Matic stock from you.
Sorry I didn't answer sooner, been out shooting news for tonights bulletins (on the SPX800 - I love it ) . If you read all my post in this thread I outline my frustrations/opinions of P2.

Guys Lets not degenerate this thread by slanging at each other, that will do no-one any good.

One frustration of mine being just a small fish in the big ocean of video, is the P2 card reader, that should have been scaled and priced to suit all users not just the Big end of town, Not all producers/shooters have clients with deep pockets, I personally went on a nine month search for a budget solution for a P2 Card Reader for my Intel Macpro, Now I have it , and it works well.
Only issue is the Panasonic P2 driver has been set-up to a limit of 4 gig of Ram in the computer, Apple development Told me that from Panic files I sent o them.

Price of P2 cards if they come down as you say one day into the future , where will that leave us who have spent thousands on our existing cards. I have four 8 giggers and Two 32 gigers ($8,000 worth) For long form work I use a Nnovia HDD from the firewire port, love to buy more cards but if you are going to dump them out cheaper, then we will have to wait some more months yet again.

When I first eyed the SPX800 it was touted as a Camputer, but it has been some time since then with not to many creative complimentary products following. that's my observation, please take all opinions as constructive, not all here are negative , we just want to pass our feedback to Panasonic, from our "users" view point.


Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au

 

[MikeD]

I think I may have just found something of interest.
Does anyone have experience with the Convergent design Flash XDR.
It is suppose to be able to take a HD-SDI input and records onto Compact Flash cards.
It's about $5000 but when a 8 gig 133x CF card will cost you about $140 it won't take long to pay it off.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...nt_Design_FLASH_XDR_HD_PORTABLE_RECORDER.html

 

[Noel Evans]

Your future certainly is not one I agree with or intend to share.

Sorry Rob, I have no idea what that means.

Next post you ask what I want? And allude to me making out there are only 3 of us using p2 cameras in Australia, wasnt my intention. But to answer the what do I want, you pretty much stated it yourself when you said in another post following that you are listening. So to that end can Pana tell us what they are doing out there, how are you getting the word out on p2 and workflow? How many retailers are currently selling p2 product?

I also am looking forward to the reduction next year. Hopefully your prediction will be accurate.

 

[Rob Myers]

Sorry Rob, I have no idea what that means.

So to that end can Pana tell us what they are doing out there, how are you getting the word out on p2 and workflow? How many retailers are currently selling p2 product?

Hi Noel,

My remark about your future was in reference to your comment about a "future shooting mostly on Sony". I'd be out of a job!

We are actually planning a P2 Roadshow in November. Time permitting we will be in Bris late November. Judging by the enquires we are getting on the new product we seem to be getting the word out ok. Up your way we have 4 Dealers, VideoPro, Lemac, Provisual and Amber. Qld is very strong for us at present. The guys at Procam are flat out with P2 at present.

 

[walnutcrunch]

I think I may have just found something of interest.
Does anyone have experience with the Convergent design Flash XDR.
It is suppose to be able to take a HD-SDI input and records onto Compact Flash cards.
It's about $5000 but when a 8 gig 133x CF card will cost you about $140 it won't take long to pay it off.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...nt_Design_FLASH_XDR_HD_PORTABLE_RECORDER.html

What is the real difference between this and P2 cards? Still have to unload the cards, still a big outlay for the tech. Seems like the same workflow, similar costs, just a different way of doing it.

 

[MikeD]

What is the real difference between this and P2 cards? Still have to unload the cards, still a big outlay for the tech. Seems like the same workflow, similar costs, just a different way of doing it.

One is the cost. I'm shooting a doco that will take about 2 years and want to keep the original recordings so spending $100 for a 8 gig card is very appealing to me.
You can also daisy chain upto 4 Firewire-800 readers and cut straight of the cards. No uploading. This is what some sites are saying but am interested to hear what others have heard about it.
Add to that the fact that IMO it will be easier to convince a producer to take back a couple of CF cards rather than a couple of P2 cards.

 

[Jonny Bravo]

P2 VS DISK !!! mmm never ending saga now as was between VHS & Betamax but lets see who gets it now...

 

[ef03]

i have now started feeling P2 is losing the game. i have shoot events, tons of shoot from multicam setup. i now if i ever buy a P2 thn will have to keep a load track of cards for 3 camera tne geting them offloaded on field HDDs thru a laptop. GOSH i hate panny for such a cumbersome setup. if the prices were made out by any sensible guy then it should have been vvvv cheap. they are forcing us to shoot on small duration multi cards then have the extreme headache of offloading on field. i have to take too much cate for transportation of HDDs.

On the other hand,,,, Look what SONY have to gift us ... SIMPLE XDCAM BD Disks shoot as much as your want on cheap media.resue them later on other wise keep the data archieve on it for long as you want.

Where as poooooor Panny wants to shoot P2 & then USE A SONY PRODUCT Called BD Disks to burn back archival data ... panasonic still have to beg technoilogy form Sony to keep panny caned shoot safe for future. SOme "Jan" must be reading thru all this...

It sounds to me like Sony is the better choice for you. So go and buy the Sony cameras. Ok?

If I am not mistaken one reason why P2 cards are so expensive is the way they are built. They are setup as a raid array on the card. Not just 16 or 32 gigs of memory like on a SD card or compact flash.

I would personally rather pay for some piece of mind rather than save a few bucks up front. Have you ever lost a clients footage? It isn't fun.

If P2 is really this big of a hassle to your workflow and budget then maybe you shouldn't attempt it. Everyone else that has tried it swears by it and wouldn't go back. Most of them had the same concerns of budget at first, but now they don't.

If sony is a better option for you then by all means go buy a sony camera, but if you do please stop clogging up these forums with useless posts.

 

[David Jimerson]

32GB Sxs is cheaper then 32GBp2 card. ie, i wish to use s SxS docked into Pciamcia adopter (if possible)....

Where is an SxS card "cheaper"? B&H currently has the SxS card for $1500 and the P2 card for $1550. This seems to be pretty typical pricing.

 

[walnutcrunch]

One is the cost. I'm shooting a doco that will take about 2 years and want to keep the original recordings so spending $100 for a 8 gig card is very appealing to me.
You can also daisy chain upto 4 Firewire-800 readers and cut straight of the cards. No uploading. This is what some sites are saying but am interested to hear what others have heard about it.
Add to that the fact that IMO it will be easier to convince a producer to take back a couple of CF cards rather than a couple of P2 cards.

Is 8 gig the max? 8 minutes per card? How does spanning work? Considering even a basic interview is about 16 minutes that seems mighty expensive. Hard-drives are about a buck a gig. I just don't see the economic sense in it.

When we have people who need to take footage away we just give them a drive. 500gig $120. No muss no fuss. If you're concerned about backing up, a drobo protected array is not much more than 1000 bucks.

It's a different workflow, but the economics seem pretty much the same.

 

[Jonny Bravo]

It sounds to me like Sony is the better choice for you. So go and buy the Sony cameras. Ok?

I mean what do you think all of your moaning and complaining is going to do on here? Obviously nothing. If Panasonic was having a hard time selling P2 cameras and cards then they would lower prices to boost sales, but they obviously aren't!

I personally think you are more of a troll on this forum than a contributor. You start numerous threads with the same topic. You post the same questions in every thread more than once. It is like the answers that someone gives you isn't good enough or you don't trust them.

If they are incorrect somebody would correct them in that thread without you reposting the question.

For example. I have seen you post the SxS card in an adaptor question about 5 times in the past couple of weeks. Can I ask you a question? Don't you think that if that where possible people would be doing it? You aren't the first person that has thought about that. If you would use the search button at the top right of your screen you would find that information without creating threads!

If I am not mistaken one reason why P2 cards are so expensive is the way they are built. They are setup as a raid array on the card. Not just 16 or 32 gigs of memory like on a SD card or compact flash.

I would personally rather pay for some piece of mind rather than save a few bucks up front. Have you ever lost a clients footage? It isn't fun.

If P2 is really this big of a hassle to your workflow and budget then maybe you shouldn't attempt it. Everyone else that has tried it swears by it and wouldn't go back. Most of them had the same concerns of budget at first, but now they don't.

If sony is a better option for you then by all means go buy a sony camera, but if you do please stop clogging up these forums with useless posts.

i know a lot of people who commit themseves to a Blunder namely P2 & they have nothing but to save their faces by commiting themselves & vowing to the technologies. as for my numerous posts, i am v different from people like you who buy first experiment later & later son in dark corners for buyign up a wrong pien=ce of equipment. i had earnd my money v hard way (perhpas you must be running a big Bank or some financial institution so you ont worry on your pennies spent) but i do think lot lot & lot more than one should so taht i dont have to fake a satisfaction on any wrong tech purchase.

can you ever statisfy my with the extra cost you psay


Go by this calc. I own Three DSR DVCAM 400/450 camcorders. i need to upgrade them to the following two ways ( mind it i shoot live shows events where long recording are a must ) i am not keeping lens cost as its approx gonna be same for both the formats 2/3 or 1/2 or I can hire them as & when required.

P2 way

3xHPX500 = $34500
5x 32Gb card per camera = $22500
P2 gear = $4000
External HDD for storing data in duplicates considering i shoot ten days a month per day shoot on each camera is approx 5hours = 150Hours per month = 300GB storage per month approx a 750GB HDD each month & it shall have to be in shelf for about 6months till the time projetc is edited & paid for so in long story short i need to buy aprox HDD space worth 6TB HDD= $1500

so in short i spend about = $59,000

Compare this with the XDCAM

3x PDW335 = $39,000
150 hours of Disks per month = 145 mins per disk @ 35mbps = 60 disks per month so for 6months = 180 disks = $ 9000
HDD space per month keeping in shelf for 6 months 3TB (i dont have to make two copies as One copy on disk is alive till 6th month) = $800

so in short i spend about = $49,000 (a hell lot of money i cant afford now) a cool saving of 10,000$ in the 6 months.

The unit prices may vary but i am going by the BH prices & other store prices.

Now i may be foolish to save my hard earned pennies than you swish money. Pardon me for keep on checking & recheking the P2 stats. As i liked the cheap price 7 weird way of pixel shifting camera to attain some HD class footage against the 1440x1080 Sony 335 natively. I am not bothered as to how much processing the machine take while editing. as i have edited projects shot form P2 & XDCAM ... P2 required much more time to dump & then get convereted to MOV file where as XDCAM software allow 4x real time MXF to MOV transcoding. Its least for my botheration to consider P2 over XDCAM or vice-versa.

My most logical calc explains that if i go XDCAM way i save bucks MEGA bucks.

Yes I am foolish ... cox in P2 planet no one will claim or show a remorse on a wrong buy !!! after all who will call oneself a fool like a MAD man in asylum.