Panasonic's new version of HPX300

[Barry_Green]

Okay, first of all -- if you want to argue "fitness for purpose" can't we lump ALL CMOS cameras under that? CMOS simply cannot do some things that CCD can. I got flambeed for daring to point that out, but the facts are what they are.

If they knew that it had problems then it should not have been released

Wow, you just described the EX1 perfectly.

But lots of people are happy with the EX1.

We on the forum have done our best to make sure people know what the issues are with any new product -- and then it's up to the buyer to decide whether they are happy with it or not.

Secondly -- the Panasonic HPX300 is as good or BETTER at skew performance than the EX1, in five of its six recording modes. The only one it trailed in (and trailed by a big margin) is 1080/24p. You're trying to paint it like it's some defective unit?

The HPX301 as released was absolutely fit for its intended purpose. Whether it was fit for YOUR intended purpose is for YOU to decide. But statements like that it wasn't fit for purpose... that's frankly ridiculous.

Yes, the 371 improves on it. So what? The new EXMOR-R sensors in the EX1 and EX3 replacements, will improve on those cameras. Are you then going to say that the EX1 and EX3 were "known defective" and "not fit for their intended purpose" because a later model improves on them? That's just silly.

Lastly, the "fix" that you seem to be griping about results in an improvement in the skew performance to where it's now comparable to the EX1. Which means there's still skew there. So if you don't like skew, stay away from CMOS. Or should all the Red owners sue Red because it's not "fit for its intended purpose" because it has flash-banding and skew and wobble? Should every HDV camera owner sue all the HDV manufacturers because the codec can go to complete pot? Should the SLR owners sue the SLR manufacturers because of the outlandishly preposterous aliasing issues?

Look -- the fact is, you want "native pixel count" chips, in smaller than 2/3", you're going to get CMOS. And CMOS has skew and wobble. Some more than others. The 370 has less (in 1080/24p) than the 300 does. That's what happens when a year passes and a manufacturer improves their products.

Guess what else -- next year, there'll be another new model, and it'll be improved over today's. And the next year, there'll be another one. And the year after that, there'll be another one. It's called progress.

 

[Mike Harvey]

Yes I will loose money because of this fast replacement since my cam is reduced in value now and it did not pay back yet. I am not a person who wants the latest technology but when I do buy it I expect that it will not be replaced so fast with the argument "the 300 was a flaw cam" . Than Pana should have waited and make a good cam in the first place.

Are you incapable of making money with your 300? Are you incapable of making as much money with your 300 as you were before the 370's release?

You need to look at it as a money making business tool, but it sounds like you're looking at it as a personal Toyota.

PANASONIC SHOULD TAKE A CUE FROM RED. ARE YOU WATCHING THIS FOURM PANASONIC?

Two words... Red Scarlet There is a down side to not releasing your camera until it's "perfect". Plus, the Red is a whole heck of a lot more expensive.

If they knew that it had problems then it should not have been released, look at the Toyota law suits and recall recently.

The 300 and 301 were marketed in the same way as the 370/371 why now should we trust that these models are fit for use as they are intended.

We may pay more due to the european laws here but that works two ways and I strongly feel that the 301 was not released as fit for its intended purpose and the appearance of the 371 within 12 months confirms that.

As has been seen Abel Cine and Philip Bloom have been chosen by panasonic to highlight these flaws in pre release cameras that were know by panasonic in the 300/301.

I sugest anyone in europe with a camera less that 12 months old e-mails panasonic and tells them that it is faulty and not fit for the purpose that is was intended as advertised on release and that the subsequent release of the 371 confirms this and is backed up with the evidence from Mr Bloom in his statements.

The problem with this analogy is that no one has died due to a safety flaw in the 300/301. A better analogy would be people who bought 2010 Ford Mustangs being torqued because the new 2011 models are going to be getting such improved gas mileage. But again... there is nothing flawed with the 2010 Mustang. Ford never hid anything defective about it, and told people up front what kind of gas mileage it got. Neither is there anything defective with the HPX300/301. They were upfront about what it could and couldn't do, and even told you how to work around it's admitted shortcomings. That they improved the design a year later doesn't make the previous design defective, nor is it stopping you from making money with it.

Crap, people are out there making money shooting video with DSLRs that have all kinds of bigger issues than the HPX300/301.

 

[GaryNattrass]

Thanks Barry it must be great for you and the other testers such as Mr Bloom to get these camera's for free and then make your money writing about them.

We business people have to buy ours and in a recession this type of marketing just craps on us all.

I also do not recall panasonic saying that the 301 would have skew or bad noise when it was released they chose to ignore that due to their marketing and they are doing the same now!

 

[Mike Harvey]

Are you incapable of making money with your 300? Are you incapable of making as much money with your 300 as you were before the 370's release?

You need to look at it as a money making business tool, but it sounds like you're looking at it as a personal Toyota.

I should probably elaborate on this... when I buy a new camera, I don't look at it as how much I can sell it for down the road. I honestly don't care how much it's currently worth, or wil be worth next year, or the year after. I look at it as how much can I make with it/can I make enough with it to have it pay for itself.

You look at cars or houses for their resale value. You look at business equipment for how much money it can make for you. If you are hung up on the fact that it's somehow worth less with the release of the latest model, then you are looking at it the entirely wrong way. Yes, I'd be mildly annoyed if I just bought the HPX300 two months ago and now they're releasing the 370, but I really wouldn't care beyond that. The well known flaws that you should have known about before you bought the camera shouldn't be preventing you from turning a profit with it. If they are, than why did you buy it in the first place?

In the US we call this mentality "Keeping up with the Jones'"... the idea of having the latest and greatest, and anything other than that is junk. There is nothing the HPX370 can do that the 300 can't that should prevent you from making money with it. Sorry a year later Panasonic improved on the well known flaws, but if the flaws are that big a deal, maybe you should have bought the HPX500 instead?

Like I said, the station I work at lst year had some promos shot on a 10y/o DVCProHD tape camera that looked really darn good. I doubt the DP really cared that it probably had some flaws in it.

 

[n8ture]

As far as I know Panasonic will be showing some of the footage I shot in Africa with the 300 at NAB this year. They were looking for the best possible footage since it will be shown on their biggest screens. And the footage they are using was shot on a pre-production model. So to cry that the 300 isn't up to the task at hand is hardly fair. Introducing better products is what companies do.

There are plenty of people out there making money with their 300's and will continue to do so log after the next model after the 370 comes out.

Maybe I need to be crying to Apple because they've come out with a faster MacBook Pro then the one I'm using right now. Or maybe I can trade my 1st generation iPad in when the second generation one comes with a camera for video conferencing? I mean after all I was the "beta tester" for the iPad by buying a 1st generation one and Apple must know they're coming out with a camera in version 2 because the current iPads show a space for it.

Or how about I just use them for the reason I purchased them in the first place?

Panasonic delivered a great camera and a fantastic price-point. Now they've been able to improve the technology and people are upset about it. Shame on Panasonic for improving their products. Shame, shame shame!

 

[Barry_Green]

Thanks Barry it must be great for you and the other testers such as Mr Bloom to get these camera's for free

Not sure what you're implying. Well, I mean, I know exactly what you're implying, but I'm trying to be generous here.

So for clarification: Panasonic loaned a 370 to me for a couple of days and then sent it back. And I'm sure Bloom's situation was similar. And I know Kevin's situation was similar, because the camera he had, he sent to me, so I know darn sure he didn't get a 370 "for free." None of us did.

and then make your money writing about them.

You think I get paid to write articles on DVXUser? Think again. And for the record I've never been paid by anyone, ever, to do a writeup of their product or to otherwise comment or say something about their product, or endorse their product. Magazine publishers do pay for articles or reviews, but manufacturers certainly don't. And the magazines I've written for have never, ever exerted any manner of editorial influence or control over a single word I've written.

I also do not recall panasonic saying that the 301 would have skew or bad noise when it was released they chose to ignore that due to their marketing and they are doing the same now!

Okay, look -- I acknowledge you're mad, but you're simply not being reasonable. I sure don't remember ANY marketing department for ANY product EVER pointing out any negatives. EVER.

You think any marketing department would ever do that? Of course not.

Which is why forums exist, and reviews exist.

 

[jmarkham]

Maybe I'm just really easy to please .. but I really like the way the 300
looks .. particularly after the 1st firmware update.

I also understand the limitations of a CMOS sensor .. particularly a 1/3"
one. You have to make them very happy by giving them enough photons
to overcome the noise threshold. And .. we shoot a lot more 720p than
we shoot 1080p. The acquisition raster on the CMOS sensors is just
the way they are.

I take inventory of the whole package .. and no camera is perfect ..
including the 5D mark II (which everybody goes gaga over and is *gasp* a
CMOS sensor and has rolling shutter issues). I mean I love the 5D .. we
use it for our DOF and low-light camera .. but I like the way the 300 looks
better.

In short, I don't feel jilted or ripped off at all. I'm happy with what I got
and the price-point I was able to get it at. I keeps saying AVC Intra 100
and a Fujinon lens at $5800 is crazy money

The 370 is a natural progression from Panasonic .. and I'd be worried if they
didn't come out with a very similar offering.


jeff

 

[Joe Media]

I have to agree with Gary on this one. Being one of the Panasonic faithful for a number of years owing a bunch of DVX's, HVX's, 2 VariCams and a HPX500, I think I've shown my support for the brand. In my opinion, the HPX300 should have never been released in it's current state. To argue that if it makes you money, you shouldn't complain about it's inadequacies, is quite frankly, BS. If you bought a new car model that had issues, would you not complain even though it started up and got you from A to B? Would you not take it back to the dealer and demand they fix it? It's like saying don't shift your car into overdrive, it doesn't work right, but live with it. I think I can speak for most people on this board and say we work damn hard for every nickle that comes into our businesses and every nickle needs to be spent wisely. I couldn't care less if Panasonic wants to come out with a new model every year, I don't need the latest and greatest. What I need is a camera that I feel confident in and don't have to make sacrifices. Sorry for the rant...just paid my taxes and am cranky.:angry:

 

[n8ture]

Well, my Toyota Tundra got recalled and it was no big deal to me. My wife finally had to take it in cause I wasn't going to bother with the recall.

So yeah I guess if my vehicle does have problems I really don't care as long as it gets me from point a to b and starts every day.

Hey I tell Jan all the time I think the 170 should have a longer zoom on it but it hasn't stopped me from making money off it. I have some kick ass footage from the 300 so you won't hear me bitching about it.

I had the original HVX-200 and the LCD sucked. People talked about it and they came out with the 200a. Was I wrong not to demand a 200a upgrade cause Panasonic released the 200 before they could put in a better LCD or at least improve the firmware to allow better focusing?

 

[Mike Harvey]

I have to agree with Gary on this one. Being one of the Panasonic faithful for a number of years owing a bunch of DVX's, HVX's, 2 VariCams and a HPX500, I think I've shown my support for the brand. In my opinion, the HPX300 should have never been released in it's current state. To argue that if it makes you money, you shouldn't complain about it's inadequacies, is quite frankly, BS. If you bought a new car model that had issues, would you not complain even though it started up and got you from A to B? Would you not take it back to the dealer and demand they fix it? It's like saying don't shift your car into overdrive, it doesn't work right, but live with it. I think I can speak for most people on this board and say we work damn hard for every nickle that comes into our businesses and every nickle needs to be spent wisely. I couldn't care less if Panasonic wants to come out with a new model every year, I don't need the latest and greatest. What I need is a camera that I feel confident in and don't have to make sacrifices.

There is a difference though between inadequacies and being defective. If you know something has an issue, and you buy it anyways knowing about the issue (or at least it's reasonable that you should have known about it), and that issue doesn't prevent you from using it the way it was reasonably intended, you really can't get torqued when next year's model improves on the inadequacies. People here are griping that it's somehow a defect. No, a defect is when something doesn't work the way you intended. The 300 by all accounts works the way it was designed to work. It's not defective, but it is imperfect. But a reasonable person who did their research would have known about those imperfections before they bought it. That a new model comes out improving on the imperfections doesn't make the previous model somehow defective all of the sudden.

Again, I would go back to my 2010 vs 2011 Mustang analogy.

Sorry for the rant...just paid my taxes and am cranky.:angry:

My condolences... I'll drink a beer for ya :beer:

 

[philip bloom]

Thanks Barry it must be great for you and the other testers such as Mr Bloom to get these camera's for free and then make your money writing about them.

Like every camera I have reviewed (that i didn't but myself) the 371 was loaned to me for review and then returned.

 

[philip bloom]

i am getting angrier and angrier the more I read statements like this on this site :

"The camera is a replacement for the old HPX 301/300. A nice but flawed camera. The rolling shutter in full HD mode was not good and there was a fair bit of noise in the blacks. This new camera is a massive improvement. But don’t take my word for it! Check out the video review below by…er, me! Also do check out Barry Green’s nice and techy review on DVX USER."

Suddenly the HPX300 sucks while half year ago all these guys (so-called experts) where raving about it.

Please don't get angry, you may go all green. Not a good luck...

The 300 was a really good camera with flaws as I said, I did the review after just 3 hours of testing. That's how long I had it for. Things are missed. For this one I insisted on a much longer period. So i had it for 2 weeks so I could really get to know.

A review is always one person's point of view, always take it as that and please relax!

 

[ryaninoz]

Looks like panasonic are going to ignore this one, I
would have liked to pay for an upgraded sensor and it
does look they got it right with the 370, Phillips footage
is fantastic. So instead I might give my money
to canon and get a 7d. Large sensor, good in low
light shallow dof. I think that's probably a better
use of my money and gives me a second camera.

 

[jmarkham]

Why not a 5D? ..Particularly if you have issues with rolling shutter....

 

[ryaninoz]

How does the 5d differ from the 7d? I need to be able to shoot 720/50p and 1080 25p.

 

[GaryNattrass]

OK I'm going to shut up now as it is too easy to throw comments around on a forum, especially after a few glasses of shiraz.

I apologise to Barry, Philip and Abel Cine tech if I spoke out of place regarding them getting cameras to test, they give good advice and I respect their opinions.

As I said I am pretty much happy with my 301's and may even go to the 371's if the deal is right.

As an early adopter of the 301 I do feel sorry for the guys in europe who paid top dollar for the camera' a few months ago and didn't have the benefit of the free cards and rebate that are given in the USA.

We also haven't had the discounts on the 2700 and 3700 that you guys have but I suppose that is why I am still renting those cameras and have yet to purchase a 2/3" camera as the UK broadcast market is too volatile at the moment to invest in such cameras.

 

[steve phillipps]

I'm positive Gary was never suggesting that you get get a camera for free to keep, only that you don't have to buy them and then find out that they've got issues.
Having said that, I suppose that's what the reviews are for, and right from the start the massive skew problems of the HPX300 were widely discussed.
This new one looks miles better and the test shots from Philip and n8ture look extremely pleasing in terms of colour, dynamic range etc. Hmmm. Was looking for a cheapish camera for a few small projects after I sold my HPX2700 a few months back - was looking at the JVC HM700 (CCD=zero skew, I shoot wildlife on long lenses), but this one made me think twice. I loved the Varicam, just couldn't keep it as BBC et al had all bought their own so were never hiring mine. The good thing about the HPX370 is that form factor and most everything else (including P2) is same as Varicam so easy transition between the two.
Hmmmm again.
One thing I did notice on Andy at Abel's test was that while the noise was much reduced it seemed to me to be done at the expense of sharpness (just as it is with NR software on stills, like Noise Ninja).
Steve

 

[Cees Mutsaers]

I greatly appreciate all you have done on this site Barry and you indeed pointed that out the drawbacks of CMOS when Sony came with there CMOS EX1/EX3 series and Pana was still with CCD. When Pana could not stay behind and went into CMOS as well Pana changed the story in "you have to addapt e new style of shooting with CMOS" and even Pana made a video on youtube how you can minimize the negative effects of RS. Some even suggested to shoot only in 720p because in 1080p the RS where much worse than the EX1/EX3. Now within a year (and for us europeans even shorter because we are always last) pana comes with the same camera but improved these so-called "flaws". I think it is not fair to say at one moment the cam is ok and coming with exactly the same cam within a year which has these issues to a much lesser extend and according to your own tests even lesser than the ex1/ex3. This means the cam was not right in the first place but because of marketing reasons dumped to early into the marcket. And no this has nothing to to do with technological progress just wrong marketing.

Barry you should understand that for a lot of people buying this 300 (especially in europe where the cam is much more expensive) was a big investment so be gentle with us and try to understand our dissatisfaction about how Pana is handeling this !!!

Okay, first of all -- if you want to argue "fitness for purpose" can't we lump ALL CMOS cameras under that? CMOS simply cannot do some things that CCD can. I got flambeed for daring to point that out, but the facts are what they are.

 

[Erik Olson]

Well, my Toyota Tundra got recalled and it was no big deal to me. My wife finally had to take it in cause I wasn't going to bother with the recall.

So yeah I guess if my vehicle does have problems I really don't care as long as it gets me from point a to b and starts every day.

Key differences in your argument are: Panasonic's HPX300 issues ("not really an issue, you're just shooting wrong!") never got anyone killed 1; Toyota actually is attempting to fix their defective product(s), which do not safely / adequately perform within their intended use.

I shoot Silver Tier programs for History, Discovery and TLC - for a living. We use Sony 1/3" MOS cameras on many of them. Lumps like the Z7U, which have been out twice as long as the HPX300 and make up thousands of hours of programming you watch on those nets in primetime. I've never had a producer, editor or another operator communicate to me that skew was an issue with these Sony products. Never been told to shoot carefully when more than halfway down the barrel in 1080 because doorways, trees, windows, people or anything else perpendicular to the camera's horizon will become plastic Jello.

Never.

Though Panasonic never promised anything (partially because they didn't admit there was an issue for a good while after the 300's bow), many 300 owners hoped that there could be an enhancement or fix-in-progress at Panasonic to address our observations on rolling shutter. Sony had figured out how to somewhat tame the beast, and we were cheerleaders for Panasonic to sort the same. But, firmware updates came and went and there was no relief for our issue. Noise, for me, was adequately addressed in 2009, and the good BBC settings have become a baseline for noise-"less" shooting.

HPX300 Users. Here is how this is going to go down. There will never be a fix for the HPX300. You are alone in the wilderness. Make money or lose money with the camera. It is, to a fair extent, up to you.

Sell your 300 and then decide how you feel toward the brand. I personally love the larger cameras (HDX900; VariCam) and have been a fan of almost every product Panasonic has done within the P2 line, starting with our HVX200, which was in the first batch in the USA.

The HPX300 was the result of the company's best intentions in delivering innovation and features at a very good pricepoint. Panasonic really misunderstood how shackled the camera would be by its CMOS issues - and hamstrung it was.

In 1080/24 and 30 modes, the camera is only usable in the most controlled conditions. That means sit down interviews, moves where zoom can be used to hide skew effect and in the widest portion of the lens. In all other shooting modes (720 / AVCI50), you can shoot without much concern. Should this keep you from owning one? That is up to you, but beware if you think you can shoot around the 1080 24/30 issue.

It is an unfortunate situation, but this is how it is. What you do next is up to you.

1 - Though I have no evidence in either regard, I assume that the HPX300 is not responsible for injuries or deaths due to its worst-in-class rolling shutter issues.

 

[ROne]

Maybe a warning should go out now about the 370/1 * don't buy it if you think it's the last camera Panasonic will release in this range ! *

I'm happy and I only bought a 301 last month! Noth bothered a jot.

The picture looks great to me when dialled. We use it mainly as an interview camera because the sound set-up and lens configuration is better than our 171/200s.

We've also just purchase a RED, and yep I could be mad but the more tools you've got the more useful you are to someone.

171x2 - General Hidef / Corporate Cam / Multicam Cam
HVX200 - About to be sold
HPX300 - Interview Camera
RED - Bigger profile Jobs.

We are constantly upgrading , because the tax incentives are great and it's good to start warranties again and there is a second hand market. I personally like this method of upgrading.

We do this with everything / computers / dvd duplicators / camera support and we always increase our itinerary a bit each time as the clients pay more.