GH1 sensor variation/burn-in efficacy proof

[Trucci]

I've read many people talking about how the earliest GH1's have more banding than more recent models. I've also read how burn-in has fixed the problem in some cases. But I've yet to see comparison images or videos demonstrating this or sensor variation between different GH1's. I've searched, but I haven't been able to find any yet (only personal stories starting with "trust me"). With the GH2 right around the corner, it'd be nice to have as much information as possible in making my decision. I'd like to know if GH1's with less (or more) banding than mine exist.

 

[MR Fanny]

im gonna go out on a limb and say yes there are gh1's out there with more and less banding than yours...your research has proven so. burn in is a hit and miss, works for some doesn't work for others, didn't work for me. So far from what i have seen the gh2 is quite promising in terms of reduced banding.

 

[nathankw]

Trucci - I completely agree. It's bizarre that after so much talk we still lack real solid proof of either burn in or even that GH1's are reall as different as people say. It's frustrating that lots of people post things like "my friend has one that's much better" but don't take just a little bit of time to do a controlled test.

Come on - there must be someone with two GH1's that differ or who know someone with another GH1.

 

[Barry_Green]

I believe the notion of "burn-in" is nonsense. I tried it with my second GH1. I took footage with it brand-new, then I let it "burn-in" for 24 hours continuous, and then took footage again. It was identical.

Others claim to have definitive proof that it helps. That is not my experience. I don't believe the burn-in thing accomplishes anything.

 

[Framerate]

I've read many people talking about how the earliest GH1's have more banding than more recent models. I've also read how burn-in has fixed the problem in some cases. But I've yet to see comparison images or videos demonstrating this or sensor variation between different GH1's. I've searched, but I haven't been able to find any yet (only personal stories starting with "trust me"). With the GH2 right around the corner, it'd be nice to have as much information as possible in making my decision. I'd like to know if GH1's with less (or more) banding than mine exist.

Try this DPR thead http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=36262999

Both the OP and i purchased GH1's at about the same time. Both cams were 2010 models. The OP's had significant vertical bands - mine did not. The pics should demonstrate the difference.

 

[Cavemandude]

Framerate, the reason your pic didn't have any vertical bands is that you shot a photo, not video, in a brightly lit room with lots of white. Your shutter speed was at 160 and the other guy's was at 1/80. That can make a difference in how vertical banding is introduced. Here is your photo that you shot at 800 ISO.

The only way to prove any difference between GH1 sensors is to take the same pic or video at the same time with the same settings which I have yet to see anyone do. Comparing completely different images is not going to prove anything since the sensor is somewhat unpredictable on how it introduces noise for each given situation. Also, since there is no EXIF data for what settings were used when shooting video it makes it harder to prove anything.

Blackout has 3 GH1's, why doesn't someone pay him to do a noise comparison test between his 3.

I think the burn-in "hypothesis" is nonsense also, no real proof of that has ever worked just wishful thinking.

Randy

 

[plasmasmp]

The higher the ISO you go on the GH1, you need to make sure that you have enough light in the frame. I can shoot 1600ISO and have it look horrible, or I can shoot it with light and have it look acceptable. On my camera I can go to 640ISO before FPN ruins an underexposed image.

The idea of burn-in is ridiculous. Then again, I've learned after getting a LA7200 yesterday not to trust anyone's online test results. (Hint: LA7200 image is as good as ISCO 36 for 1080p video)

 

[Bfilms]

The higher the ISO you go on the GH1, you need to make sure that you have enough light in the frame. I can shoot 1600ISO and have it look horrible, or I can shoot it with light and have it look acceptable. On my camera I can go to 640ISO before FPN ruins an underexposed image.

The idea of burn-in is ridiculous. Then again, I've learned after getting a LA7200 yesterday not to trust anyone's online test results. (Hint: LA7200 image is as good as ISCO 36 for 1080p video)

Is there a controlled test for LA7200 vs ISCO 36 you used?

Lost of people on here mentioned the "Barreling" effect on the LA7200, and videos posted online, its quite evident...so far on the ISCO 36 its not noticeable (or doesn't exist at all). Or were you just comparing "quality" and not "barreling"?

I'm looking to buy an anamorphic adapter, and money isn't the most important issue, but I don't want to pay so much more for something that's not really much better.

 

[Ian-T]

Bfilms...I have a feeling he was being sarcastic.

 

[Bfilms]

Bfilms...I have a feeling he was being sarcastic.

Funny...

Although I have read reviews where the Isco isn't worth the trouble with all the focusing issues...obviously not a quality comparison, but still.

 

[plasmasmp]

Bfilms...I have a feeling he was being sarcastic.

Not about the LA7200. Going to be doing a controlled test very soon, but I think the problem with the LA7200 is the way people set it up. It needs to be, paraphrasing a turn of the century movie, "glass to glass"

yeah I know this doesn't belong in this thread.

 

[Framerate]

Framerate, the reason your pic didn't have any vertical bands is that you shot a photo, not video, in a brightly lit room with lots of white. Your shutter speed was at 160 and the other guy's was at 1/80. That can make a difference in how vertical banding is introduced. Here is your photo that you shot at 800 ISO.

Randy

A slight misunderstanding, I think That's not my picture.

The OP posted a picture from his June 2010 camera which showed vertical banding at iso800

My photo was a skin crop from a photo taken at iso 1600, which had no vertical banding.

My subject was seated on a dark brown leather sofa, and I included another crop of the same photo that included this dark area - again, no vertical banding.

It does prove that there are very noticeable differences between cameras - even 2010 models, which both of these were.

In my experience, video has always proved to much cleaner than stills - even at iso 1600, so if you don't get VB in stills, it won't be there in video.

 

[Cavemandude]

Framerate, where is a link to the whole original photo that is yours, I saw the crop which was heavily processed afterwards, correct? The shutter speed on the photo you took was 1/250 which will have an effect on whether banding will show up or not. Had you used 1/60 I bet you would have seen banding. The guy that had the problem used 1/80.

Also, I completely disagree about there being more banding in photos compared to video since video is mostly shot at slower shutter speeds. Also disagree that there are such vast differences between cameras. Take the exact same photo or video with the same exact settings between 2 GH1's and show me a difference then I'll believe you. Nobody has yet to do that.

Randy?

 

[Framerate]

Framerate, where is a link to the whole original photo that is yours, I saw the crop which was heavily processed afterwards, correct? The shutter speed on the photo you took was 1/250 which will have an effect on whether banding will show up or not. Had you used 1/60 I bet you would have seen banding. The guy that had the problem used 1/80.

Also, I completely disagree about there being more banding in photos compared to video since video is mostly shot at slower shutter speeds. Also disagree that there are such vast differences between cameras. Take the exact same photo or video with the same exact settings between 2 GH1's and show me a difference then I'll believe you. Nobody has yet to do that.

Randy?

Cavemandude, there was no processing on the image at all - I read the OP, then snapped off a shot to show that it was possible to get a GH1 with no banding (at the time, he could have returned his camera and bought one from the same batch as mine from another retailer)

I disagree about the shutter speed - in my experience it has little effect on noise/banding.

I STRONGLY disagree about video not being better than stills - even at the 50/100 I choose (PAL)

Indoor (average tungsten light) video, using a moderately fast lens is very clean at higher iso's - and much cleaner than a comparable still image.

If you're in doubt, I'm happy to post a fame grab and a still of the same subject, using the same iso & shutter speed.

That's my honest experience, anyway - yours might differ, but I can't quite see why you're being a bit belligerent about it.

 

[Cavemandude]

Cavemandude, there was no processing on the image at all - I read the OP, then snapped off a shot to show that it was possible to get a GH1 with no banding (at the time, he could have returned his camera and bought one from the same batch as mine from another retailer)

I disagree about the shutter speed - in my experience it has little effect on noise/banding.

I STRONGLY disagree about video not being better than stills - even at the 50/100 I choose (PAL)

Indoor (average tungsten light) video, using a moderately fast lens is very clean at higher iso's - and much cleaner than a comparable still image.

If you're in doubt, I'm happy to post a fame grab and a still of the same subject, using the same iso & shutter speed.

That's my honest experience, anyway - yours might differ, but I can't quite see why you're being a bit belligerent about it.

Since when does a GH1 always have banding? Follow some simple rules and you won't get banding at high ISO's, such as, if you have a bright light source anywhere it the picture even if it is mostly dark.

Do you have 2 or more GH1's to do comparisons on the same subject?

Randy

 

[Cavemandude]

Framerate, here is your post stating that you did processing on that image:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=36264895

"This is a 100% skin crop - taken today at 1600 iso, underexposed by 1ev and brought back in Bibble 5"

Then, of course in the last post on that thread, the original poster retracted everything he was complaining about after shooting some photos at ISO 3200 with no banding. My point is that every shooing situation is different so you can't say one GH1 has a bad sensor and another doesn't by comparing different photos or videos.

Randy

 

[Framerate]

Framerate, here is your post stating that you did processing on that image:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=36264895

"This is a 100% skin crop - taken today at 1600 iso, underexposed by 1ev and brought back in Bibble 5"

Then, of course in the last post on that thread, the original poster retracted everything he was complaining about after shooting some photos at ISO 3200 with no banding. My point is that every shooing situation is different so you can't say one GH1 has a bad sensor and another doesn't by comparing different photos or videos.

Randy

Oh, right, my apologies then - I'd forgotten all about it. It was just a snapshot taken for the thread purpose - obviously, I must have underexposed it to try and simulate the OP's own settings - but at twice the iso for good measure.

I don't have the original file so I can't *prove* there was no banding was there - but there wasn't. I should also mention that it's clear that no noise reduction was applied in Bibble - otherwise the dark 'sofa' crop wouldn't have been so noisy. Thus, if (as you seem to think) tthere *was* banding prior to adjusting the EV in Bibble, where did it go? Simply opening a file in Bibble and adjusting the exposure does *not* get rid of banding!

What I can say is that I've taken a lot of higher iso shots with my latest (December 09) GH1 and there is no banding - nor did I encounter banding with the GH1 I owned before (February 2010)

I can assure you that the OP has certainly not retracted his banding complaint! - in fact, he mentioned it again in DPR only last week

I'm not entirely sure where you're coming from on this issue - are you saying that all GH1's are equal, and that banding is only matter of settings?

If so, I would categorically disagree - there does appear to be a difference between GH1's - some have chronic banding, some have mild banding, and some have no banding.

As mentioned previously, my own theory is that it's all down to interference from some of the internal electronics - but that's just my opinion.

What *isn't* my opinion is that I can take any number of iso 3200 pics without any vertical banding whatsoever - even when shooting dark subjects in indoor lighting.

 

[Framerate]

Since when does a GH1 always have banding?

Er.......I'm scratching my head, here - I'm the one saying that all GH1's do *not* have banding, and that some of them have no banding problem at all.

Follow some simple rules and you won't get banding at high ISO's, such as, if you have a bright light source anywhere it the picture even if it is mostly dark.

Well, of course. However, in the case of chronic banding, even that is not enough.

Do you have 2 or more GH1's to do comparisons on the same subject?

I've owned 2 GH1's (both made within 3 months of each other) and neither had banding. The first one had more chroma noise.

I've been aware of the banding experienced by others though (and seen enough samples over the last year)

 

[Azmyth]

Mine def. has banding. I spent some time today shooting a bunch of random stuff at various ISO's, shutter speeds.. and the only stuff that DIDN'T have banding was shot outside in sunlight. Everything I shot inside under normal light, no matter what shutter speed or ISO, had banding unless the image was ridiculously overexposed.

 

[Cavemandude]

All GH1's have the banding problem since they use the same sensor and there is no quality difference between sensors as related to banding. No one yet has proved otherwise by doing a proper test with multiple GH1's in the same room, taking the same pics/videos and doing comparisons. Do that test, show the difference with your special "no banding" GH1 and a "normal" GH1 and I'll be convinced.

Don't you find it a little odd that you were able to buy 2 GH1's months apart (Dec 09, Feb 10) and both exhibit no banding at all? I mean, what are the odds considering most everyone else here has admitted to theirs having the banding problem? Does your GH1 have a jello problem when shooting video? I bought mine in Dec 09 by the way.

Randy