GH1 sensor variation/burn-in efficacy proof

Not to troll (much) but, those of you who are calling the burn-in *nonsense* and *ridiculous*, are you calling those of us who have had good results with it liars? How come you haven't been able to disprove or otherwise show us the proof that it doesn't work if you know without a doubt that it's bogus? We all *knew* the earth was flat at some point right? What happened when folks started saying that it wasn't? They also heard the words "nonsense" and "ridiculous" too probably(right between "heretic" and "blasphemy"). All I'm saying is that being negative or contrary just because you don't believe in something is neither productive nor helpful and it certainly doesn't show that you are open-minded to new ideas or possibilities. I've been proven wrong enough times in my life to stop making judgments before at least hearing out the rest of the details.

Seriously though, the burn-in saved my camera from being returned. I might be in the minority but as implausible as it sounds I know what I saw. Had I known at the time that this would be a big deal, I would have saved my initial test videos. I deleted them during the process because I read one of these threads saying it was all BS and that the burn-in didn't work which I took to heart. I wish I hadn't. I figured that I'd clear the cards while getting everything boxed back up to return it. Little did I know that the camera would actually be improved. Right now I really wish that I had saved those videos but I'll have to settle to seeming like a "trust me" poster because frankly it's all I can be.

Also, my camera might have actually been the worst-case exception. Most of the videos I've seen that were shot by folks crying foul about "banding" aren't really that bad to begin with. My camera had HORRIBLE streaks of yellow and purple that seems to radiate from the lower right portion of the frame. They were visible at all ISO and regardless of exposure. These weren't the faint bands that people see in the shadows when they try to shoot by starlight with an F4.5 lens..

I design electronics so i know all about supposed *burn-in* tales from all different kinds of groups, mostly the audiophiles. Most of them are baseless and misleading but are also relatively harmless to try regardless. Some, like speaker break-in, actually do work to some degree.

Unfortunately I see two sides of the coin here but very little in the way of serious investigation. I can't afford to purchase another camera just for testing and my friend bought a GH1 that worked straight from the box as good as my burned-in one(almost exactly the same) so I don't have much to compare. It also seems that the (anecdotal?) evidence shows that the sensors vary pretty wildly between different cameras made at different times. That randomization might make things hard for anyone willing to find a NEW old stock camera that hasn't been hacked yet and shows the bad banding.

We also don't really know what *could* cause the changes either.

Some hypothesize that its a coating on the sensor, which I'll be honest, I disagree with due to a number of details.

Some hypothesize that it's a noise reduction routine that takes some time to calibrate itself to the sensor. This is the one that is more likely, and the one that I believe. The later/better cameras could simply be the same sensor and electronics but just turned on at the factory for burn-in. It's not unheard of to do, I've done things like this for different reasons on some designs. Either way, my friend's camera's output looks pretty much identical to my camera. We shot some scenes for a short with the cameras side-by-side with everything matched. the only difference was the lens focal length. Both cameras were WB'd at the same time and both were metered identically using an external meter. The shadows in some scenes show the exact same amount of banding, etc. This leads me to believe that, when compared, the cameras were probably performing at their best for their design. The only questions are how did they both get there and how long did it take?

However, we don't know what is going on at all, just a bunch of guessing.

Until we can prove something either way, I say that people should at least keep their minds open about it.
 
Not to troll (much) but, those of you who are calling the burn-in *nonsense* and *ridiculous*, are you calling those of us who have had good results with it liars? How come you haven't been able to disprove or otherwise show us the proof that it doesn't work if you know without a doubt that it's bogus?
Can't speak for everyone, only for myself. I had a GH1, it had awful banding, I sent it to Jack. Bought another one, same banding issues. Everyone said "do the burn-in" so I did. And afterwards -- absolutely no difference. Based on my own experience, I say that I have seen no evidence that it makes any difference. I just instead learned that the GH1 exhibits banding on anything that's 2.75+ stops underexposed, and to try to avoid having anything that underexposed in my frame if possible.

All I'm saying is that being negative or contrary just because you don't believe in something is neither productive nor helpful and it certainly doesn't show that you are open-minded to new ideas or possibilities. I've been proven wrong enough times in my life to stop making judgments before at least hearing out the rest of the details.
Totally agree. That's why I tried it, instead of just saying "this can't possibly work". I did it exactly as people said to. I shot before & after. No difference. I'm not saying "it can't possibly work", I'm saying "I tried it and it did nothing."

I have yet to see anyone who's posted before & afters, showing any manner of improvement. If it's been posted, I missed it.


Unfortunately I see two sides of the coin here but very little in the way of serious investigation.
Agreed. I would like to see someone with bad banding shoot a controlled-scenario shot, then do the burn-in, then show us the exact same controlled-scenario shot from the new-improved version. I have never seen anyone do that, and when I tried it, there was no difference.


Until we can prove something either way, I say that people should at least keep their minds open about it.
I think the burn-in doesn't do anything. But we all know that placebos have a pretty seriously good track record of imitating real medicines in tests, so... if someone wants to believe in burn-in and it makes them happier with their camera, I'm not gonna take that away from 'em. But I still haven't seen any evidence to show that it actually does make a difference.
 
I just instead learned that the GH1 exhibits banding on anything that's 2.75+ stops underexposed, and to try to avoid having anything that underexposed in my frame if possible.

Barry's knowledge as usual. Common sense has led many of us to understand that if you underexpose with the GH1 you are not going to get pretty results. It is a fact. I did not do any burn-in ritual. I just learned that if I don't have enough light to expose my image properly I will most likely suffer from it. It is most likely the nature of the sensor and one thing that the engineers must work very hard to fix.
 
I believe I was the first guy to seriously try out the burn in thing - it worked for me. And I spelt out the steps that worked, for everyone's benefit. It worked for some, and for others it did not... so for those of you that tried it and worked, I am very happy for you!

And for those of you who are sitting on the fence - just like Barry, why not give it a try? What do you have to lose... the banding didn't disappear for me, but was noticeably minimized. So lets take it easy... we just want to get the best from our cameras, and enjoy shooting memorable scenes!
 
Barry's knowledge as usual. Common sense has led many of us to understand that if you underexpose with the GH1 you are not going to get pretty results. It is a fact. I did not do any burn-in ritual. I just learned that if I don't have enough light to expose my image properly I will most likely suffer from it. It is most likely the nature of the sensor and one thing that the engineers must work very hard to fix.

I understand that you are insinuating that people are simply underexposing their cameras and getting the banding. That's cool and I agree with it for normal usage. However, we aren't talking about normal/expected banding here. From what I've experienced and what I've gathered from folks who have succeeded with the burn-in is that pretty much all of these cameras had *excessive* banding, as in the banding was much worse than what most people see when they underexpose. As I stated before, I had color banding noise even when overexposed and regardless of ISO setting. After burn-in my camera is on par with the general population and I DO get banding when I underexpose just like everyone else. The burn-in does not gain you anything when performed on a *normal* GH1 it seems.
 
Funny how the people that have done the "burn-in' with great or improved results never have "before and after" pics to prove it, they've always been deleted. I've kept all my pics and videos since day one with my GH1 to refer back to because of various testing. This is really like saying I saw a UFO, the Loch Ness Monster or Sasquatch until someone shows proof in a convincing way.

I think the real claim to question though is Framerate's which is that he never gets any banding in any situation or setting used with his GH1, actually with two different GH1's that he has used. No one has ever claimed a completely "banding free" GH1.

Randy
 
I guess there are two cases. Banding at ISO around 200. Banding at ISO around 800. The latter being a normal GH1 didn't get any improvement from the burn-in process. Some got lucky to get "good" GH1. This is... really bad QC from panny. As some said, it's nothing but a crapshoot.
 
Funny how the people that have done the "burn-in' with great or improved results never have "before and after" pics to prove it, they've always been deleted. I've kept all my pics and videos since day one with my GH1 to refer back to because of various testing. This is really like saying I saw a UFO, the Loch Ness Monster or Sasquatch until someone shows proof in a convincing way.

Randy

It's not funny at all, especially the part where you insinuate that the folks who have seen this are lying about this.

Why would anyone do that? What would it gain them?
 
I saw a Sasquatch riding the Loch Ness then a UFO came and abducted them both =) I'd like to agree with stonebat in the sense that people who had banding below the normal 800 ISO would have seen improvement with the burn in. Users with banding above that, including myself didn't see any noticeable improvement. I gave it a crack non the less =) People can either chose to try it or not, whats there to lose? Its not like you have to open the camera up and coat the sensor with the yolk of an eagle egg or anything. Anaconda squeeze!
 
I tried for 3 days.... it didn't do any good. Mine was already good under iso 800. Then I was wondering all kinds of details. Room temperature? Moisture? Camera sitting in a dark room? Or cap-on in not so dark room? There's all kind of possibilities...

We will never know... as Panny stopped producing GH1 and there are only limited number of people who wanna try burn-in.
 
Yeah but real proof isn't what people want to see. They just want to argue.


A number of perfectly normal users have stated that they have seen an improvement and a bunch of folks jump all over them simply because they've not experienced it. It's not like it's a bunch of 1 post trolls trying to make money from it or something. It's just normal forum members suggesting something that seems to work in limited cases. It's not some magical fix nor is it scientifically proven at all but I fail to see what it would gain someone to come here and say that it worked when it didn't. If it didn't work then I'd think you'd have a lot more folks saying that it didn't work. Instead you have a statistically significant number of people who say that it does work. Yeah, you are going to have some folks who are mistaken and their results are false, but that can't be everybody. It's not hard to turn on your camera, set your ISO to 1600 and leave it on for a week.. You'd have to seriously try to mess that up..

Heck, I've never seen anybody give birth in real life, does that mean that doesn't exist too just because I've never seen it?

Try it or don't try it, it's not my concern.

My concern is when people think they know better than someone else, they are quick to jump all over people who might not be conforming to their accepted norm. That's not fair and it's just uncool. It deprives all parties of the ability to communicate, learn, experiment and generally try new things.
 
I've already seen that post which is a poor example for proof since most people take pics and video with their GH1 without the lens cap on and it's the only 2 pics he has of before and after the burn in plus he didn't show the originals which should be pitch black. Why he only took 2 pics with the lens cap on is beyond me but he had an great opportunity to prove something. It didn't prove a thing from my point of view. He should have at least taken pics with the lens cap off where you could have clearly seen banding in a dark room before and then taken the same pic after the burn in.

Randy
 
Yeah but real proof isn't what people want to see. They just want to argue.

I personally want to see a controlled test with the original mts files. If I just wanted to argue, I'd have more posts than I have now after being registered here for 7 years :).

Remember that time you discovered that native 24p would stop the recording in static shots and that it wasn't due to not having a fast enough SD card? Many people claimed that it was just because you didn't have a fast enough card. The onus was on you to prove otherwise even though you were right the whole time. Instead of saying that no one had disproven your claim or that people weren't being open-minded, you actually did some thorough testing. Soon you discovered that even at the lowest bitrate, native 24p would freeze the card whereas interlaced 24p didn't freeze at much higher bitrates. You also discovered that static shots with high foliage were particularly bad. People started doing this in droves and now it has become accepted that the problem lied somewhere beyond the speed of the card. By providing evidence (like testing native 24p at low bitrates in static shots), you convinced the doubters. You probably also saved people hundreds of dollars by not having their shots freeze during a paid wedding shoot.

In this instance, you made a claim that people doubted at first. The doubters were in the right to doubt it at first since there wasn't enough evidence. Later you provided enough evidence and turned the tide. Now anyone who doubts that native 24p has a particular problem not found in interlaced 24p will have some serious explaining to do.

The case with burn-in and sensor variation is different. All we have are wildly varying anecdotes with zero controlled testing. While anecdotes are useful in some cases, it can't be trusted alone in corroborating claims such as burn-in or sensor variation. People aren't saying it's not possible. They're just saying there isn't enough evidence. For example, a Japanese GH1 and a Chinese GH1 use the same sensor and software. To say the Japanese one yields a better image requires some serious proof. A controlled test with the original MTS files is not too much to ask for, and we don't even have that (and no, resizing stills and saying you forgot what settings you had doesn't count as controlled).

You're a credible member on DVXuser and I don't think anyone is insinuating that you're lying (though there have been some snarky remarks). I do think you might consider taking a second look though if you get a chance.
 
All GH1's have the banding problem since they use the same sensor and there is no quality difference between sensors as related to banding. No one yet has proved otherwise by doing a proper test with multiple GH1's in the same room, taking the same pics/videos and doing comparisons. Do that test, show the difference with your special "no banding" GH1 and a "normal" GH1 and I'll be convinced.

Don't you find it a little odd that you were able to buy 2 GH1's months apart (Dec 09, Feb 10) and both exhibit no banding at all? I mean, what are the odds considering most everyone else here has admitted to theirs having the banding problem? Does your GH1 have a jello problem when shooting video? I bought mine in Dec 09 by the way.

Randy


LOL! - I'm not a Panasonic missionary - and I don't see it as my role in life to convince you of anything.

I',m slightly perturbed that you are tacitly calling me a liar - but that's the internet, I suppose....

I can only repeat that neither of my GH1's had, or have, any vertical banding - not even when videoing at max iso under normal househol incandecent light. As stated prevously, the first camera had more chroma noise than the second one - but no vertical banding. None, Zilch, Nada

If you find that miraculous, there's not much I can say (except, perhaps, to sing a few bars from The Sound Of Music, "Somewhere in my youth or childhood, I must have done something good"....)

At first, I attributed the lack of banding to the fact that they were later cameras, that possibly had sensors manufactured in Panasonic's new fabrication facility - but as the DPR OP also had a cam of similar vintage which exhibited banding, that theory goes straight out of the window.

So, I dunno - all I do know is that I am so pleased with the low light performance of the second GH1 (the £249 December 09 model) that I am seriously thinking of cancelling my pre-order for the GH2 because, in all honestly, I can't see it being all that better - bells & whistles notwithstanding.

Just of of interest, my setting for indoor video using an f1/8 Canon FD lens is iso 1600 - which I find gives me a shutter speed of around 50/1000.
 
I think the real claim to question though is Framerate's which is that he never gets any banding in any situation or setting used with his GH1, actually with two different GH1's that he has used. No one has ever claimed a completely "banding free" GH1.

Randy


Whoa, Mr Dude - you seem to be progressing from 'tacitly' to 'explicitly' in the calling me a liar game!

I don't think I deserve that!! I've never posted anything here that I knew to be untrue!

I have never said that my GH1 is banding free in 'any situation or setting'! I don't use 'any situation or setting'! - for indoor video I strive to keep the shutter speed to 1/50th, which necessitates max iso - and, used like that I DO NOT SEE ANY VERTICAL BANDING!

If I have ever given my opinion about any bit of kit that I have owned, I have always pointed out the bad bits, as well as the good bits! - and if my GH1 had banding I would be the first to moan - but it hasn't, and I don't!, and I rather resent you effectively calling me a liar!
 
I just want to figure out how to avoid banding "consistently" so that I'm not spending more time deleting amazing takes, vs. making my films.

I've seen tons of stuff shot under the same "conditions" as I'd be using with the GH1.. such as the winning monsterfest short, Jack's Shady Texas and even parts of Depth of Phil. If its about being underexposed, how to do you keep your scene above that level of exposure, and how do you make it look "dark" when it really isn't without having to do the day for night deal..

I also don't think my issue is the colored banding but FPN.
 
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Yes, sometimes banding and FPN are the same thing, sometims apparently not. But I too get FPN vertical lines, in the same places in underexposed areas. Sometimes it's so bad that I get if I'm anything less than 1/2 stop overexposed. I just left my camera on for three days, again, as per this thread. It's a neat idea, but nothing.

I got my camera in September 2009. I love it but I just can't use it indoors or at night very well at all. That's what my 7D was for.

Last time I was in California, I compared my camera at Samy's to an early 2010 model GH1...same lenses, same settings. The new one had way less FPN.
 
I personally want to see a controlled test with the original mts files. If I just wanted to argue, I'd have more posts than I have now after being registered here for 7 years :).

Remember that time you discovered that native 24p would stop the recording in static shots and that it wasn't due to not having a fast enough SD card? Many people claimed that it was just because you didn't have a fast enough card. The onus was on you to prove otherwise even though you were right the whole time. Instead of saying that no one had disproven your claim or that people weren't being open-minded, you actually did some thorough testing. Soon you discovered that even at the lowest bitrate, native 24p would freeze the card whereas interlaced 24p didn't freeze at much higher bitrates. You also discovered that static shots with high foliage were particularly bad. People started doing this in droves and now it has become accepted that the problem lied somewhere beyond the speed of the card. By providing evidence (like testing native 24p at low bitrates in static shots), you convinced the doubters. You probably also saved people hundreds of dollars by not having their shots freeze during a paid wedding shoot.

In this instance, you made a claim that people doubted at first. The doubters were in the right to doubt it at first since there wasn't enough evidence. Later you provided enough evidence and turned the tide. Now anyone who doubts that native 24p has a particular problem not found in interlaced 24p will have some serious explaining to do.

The case with burn-in and sensor variation is different. All we have are wildly varying anecdotes with zero controlled testing. While anecdotes are useful in some cases, it can't be trusted alone in corroborating claims such as burn-in or sensor variation. People aren't saying it's not possible. They're just saying there isn't enough evidence. For example, a Japanese GH1 and a Chinese GH1 use the same sensor and software. To say the Japanese one yields a better image requires some serious proof. A controlled test with the original MTS files is not too much to ask for, and we don't even have that (and no, resizing stills and saying you forgot what settings you had doesn't count as controlled).

You're a credible member on DVXuser and I don't think anyone is insinuating that you're lying (though there have been some snarky remarks). I do think you might consider taking a second look though if you get a chance.

I completely agree with Trucci and it is definitely how I am looking at this issue, he just has a nicer more diplomatic way of saying it...

Randy
 
I personally want to see a controlled test with the original mts files. If I just wanted to argue, I'd have more posts than I have now after being registered here for 7 years :).

Remember that time you discovered that native 24p would stop the recording in static shots and that it wasn't due to not having a fast enough SD card? Many people claimed that it was just because you didn't have a fast enough card. The onus was on you to prove otherwise even though you were right the whole time. Instead of saying that no one had disproven your claim or that people weren't being open-minded, you actually did some thorough testing. Soon you discovered that even at the lowest bitrate, native 24p would freeze the card whereas interlaced 24p didn't freeze at much higher bitrates. You also discovered that static shots with high foliage were particularly bad. People started doing this in droves and now it has become accepted that the problem lied somewhere beyond the speed of the card. By providing evidence (like testing native 24p at low bitrates in static shots), you convinced the doubters. You probably also saved people hundreds of dollars by not having their shots freeze during a paid wedding shoot.

In this instance, you made a claim that people doubted at first. The doubters were in the right to doubt it at first since there wasn't enough evidence. Later you provided enough evidence and turned the tide. Now anyone who doubts that native 24p has a particular problem not found in interlaced 24p will have some serious explaining to do.

The case with burn-in and sensor variation is different. All we have are wildly varying anecdotes with zero controlled testing. While anecdotes are useful in some cases, it can't be trusted alone in corroborating claims such as burn-in or sensor variation. People aren't saying it's not possible. They're just saying there isn't enough evidence. For example, a Japanese GH1 and a Chinese GH1 use the same sensor and software. To say the Japanese one yields a better image requires some serious proof. A controlled test with the original MTS files is not too much to ask for, and we don't even have that (and no, resizing stills and saying you forgot what settings you had doesn't count as controlled).

You're a credible member on DVXuser and I don't think anyone is insinuating that you're lying (though there have been some snarky remarks). I do think you might consider taking a second look though if you get a chance.

Thanks Trucci, I appreciate your opinion.

The main problem is not that we can't test and experiment to figure this out, it's that even before we start, people are saying that others are wrong. Not *possibly* wrong, not *on the wrong track*, just plain wrong. To me, that's unfair. Another thing that is unfair is placing the burden of proof on someone to prove something positively. So we now have to *prove* beyond a shadow of a doubt that the burn-in works yet the folks who say it doesn't don't have to prove anything? I think they need to put their money where their mouths are and prove that it doesn't work.. We'll make this a two sided approach.

Yeah I kept on with the Native 24p thing, but that was simply because I'm hardheaded! I debug complex design problems for a living and I get a kick out of figuring things out that don't seem to make sense. I've learned over the years to keep my opinions in check and just follow the facts no matter how *ridiculous* they might seem. It's the scientific method and Occam's razor combined.

That being said, other folks who might have proof could seriously be deterred from posting for fear of being called liars or idiots or something. That's exactly how some of these posters are coming across, like folks who make it a little too personal when they don't believe something.

So it's not that I don't think we need more proof to prove this to folks, because I've seen it work and I know that we could prove it, it's that when you have these vocal people saying it doesn't work, you will probably have fewer people try it simply because they believe these folks without trying for themselves. Fewer people trying it means fewer people finding clues and that means less proof. That's why I say that these people don't want proof. If they truly wanted proof, then they would ENCOURAGE, not DENIGRATE, those who might be able to provide clues, and yeah, there IS a difference. I had a few people listen when I said that I saw Native 24p crap out, but for the most part everyone ganged up on me to tell me that I had no idea what I was doing, that I had the wrong cards, that I was mistaken, that I was lying, that I was wasting my time, etc. I got a couple PMs with encouragement but mostly I got negativity and people looking down at me because they "knew better" in their own minds and simply because they hadn't experienced it.

Some folks, like me, will always try unpopular stuff just for the giggles, but a lot of folks will just move on because they somehow believe that these folks and their firm negative stance on the issue somehow equal knowledge.

Now if we could find a member with a NEW OLD stock unit that has not been used and exhibits the severe banding problem, I'd be perfectly happy with organizing the testing regimen. I foresee a problem with this though as pretty much all of the units that were early enough to show the problem are likely to have been used extensively and/or hacked already or simply returned/repaired.
 
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