C100: Canon layoffs

[DLD]

The good news is that the demand for video content is also growing, exponentially. I believe there is still plenty of work for good storytellers. The struggle will happen for those who position themselves based on gear vs. specialty of insight.

-gl

Storytelling should benefit from the lower cost of production (image acquisition, editing, delivery). The key is getting into the pyramid at the lower echelons and then progressing upwards. But, at the same time, not everyone is involved in the narrative either. There are plenty of YouTube Channels of landscapes/nature in 4K. And now you don't need a high end gear anymore to do it well. XT-3 does the trick just fine.

In any case, Sigma's chairman Kaz Yamaki gave an interview to Dave Etchell of the Imaging Resource where he stated that he was more positive than the Canon chairman and of the belief that the total sales will not drop by more than 20%-25% off the current level and then stabilize there.

The problem with Kaz's reasoning was that the interview took place at the CP+ in February and the market already dropped 20% since then.

PPS. There's also an overwhelming feeling on photo forums that APS-C is dead. With EOS RP going for $1,300 with the EF-to-R adapter included, that feeling seems to be well warranted.

 

[jcs]

Thanks for defining the term for me. As my brother is a noted professor on the subject, I think I kinda get it.

My point is that any conversation or topic can be extrapolated out to a point where the interaction is no longer practical or useful, or frankly even of interest to many. I think we would be better served to discuss matters on a more down to earth level.

The camera market (+world) is changing. What's more practical- constructively thinking of ways to work with and benefit from the changes and adapt or the opposite?

DLD: those coming from a full frame stills background might agree; those coming from cinema (Super35/~1.5 crop rel. to FF) mostly still prefer Super35.

 

[laverdir]

By reading this "The Minds Behind the Magic" excerpt, it looks like their development team is excellent at achieving the set goals and almost looking confident wearing those ridiculous uniforms.

So, layoffs are either the result of poor marketing research or [placeholder for your favorite theory how Canon operates].

Given that eye focus is working in video mode and all lenses have the same type of sensor (unlike the Hauwei P30 Pro), I wonder if Sony Xperia 1 would get the place under the sun here easier then Fujfilm X-T3.
I guess that there wouldn't be a story about the layoffs if Canon had such a device instead of all that obsolete 'point and shoot' cameras and handheld camcorders.

Also, I wouldn't worry about Canon well-being, they have a separate basket for every egg they make, I'm sorry for the people.

 

[laverdir]

Sony's photo boot at MWC.

 

[DLD]

... DLD: those coming from a full frame stills background might agree; those coming from cinema (Super35/~1.5 crop rel. to FF) mostly still prefer Super35.

New ARRI LF sensors are full frame. New Sony Venice sensors are full frame. New'ish Red Monstro sensors are full frame. S1/Z6/A7III are full frame. EOS R is full frame. Freddie Young is ... greater than a mere full frame. But you get my point. It's full frame.

PS. Edit/addition/correction - And since MWC was brought up, here's a new Nokia phone with five rear cameras and computational photography co-developed with Light (of the 16 sensor/lens model from about a year and a half ago).

https://www.cnet.com/news/nokia-9-pureview-5-rear-cameras-yawn-limited-edition/

 

[laverdir]

Delivery is a bit dry.

Xperia 1 integrates ... Alpha interchangeable lens camera technology ... image processing engine Bionz X for mobile and Sony's image sensor with dual photodiode. This is our secret recipe packed with a ... camera algorithm to provide ... camera performance.

 

[DLD]

The new Oppo preview that has a 10x zoom ... looks like 6x + digital and digital ain't working too well yet (in pre-production).

 

[laverdir]

Oh, and forgot, there is something for you jcs, starting from around 10'35".

We have also collaborated with our professional camera team known for its CineAlta brand... with its famous full-frame digital cinematography camera - Venice. Colour plays a pivotal role in cinematic storytelling. You can shoot natural cinematic tone and further apply expression based colour management presets for our new cinema pro features.

 

[laverdir]

DLD, I think that Sony is aiming higher then just playing with what's possible using Android camera SDK.

See the menus on screenshot above or go to 11'17" in video.

All manual: lens, ISO, WB, Shutter angle, focus.
Then there is project name, resolution: 4k, fps: 23.98, look: Venice CS, clip name.
Below the picture is time code, HDR On, Format H.265, Bat. 100%, Mem. 64 GB and Frame lines 16:9.

Had 4k many years ago on my Z3, but not really usable for longer shots due temp. warnings and erratic AF.

There is no confirmation of eye AF in video mode.

 

[jcs]

Full frame is great, I prefer it with all my current glass being FF Canon (+ 1 APS-C nano zoom for the 80D). Thus the EOS R, A7 III, Venice, Alexa LF (any) are appealing. For people who work full time in cinema, typically all of their cinema lenses are Super35. Full frame cinema lenses are comparatively rare, and the good ones are really expensive (and amazing- Leica Thalia, Cooke S7/i etc.). Someone here noted their Alexa LF wasn't renting, yet the Alexa Mini was always renting. The other issue for cinema production is pulling focus on full frame with ultra shallow DOF: for moving shots it's pretty much impossible by even the best unless rehearsed and doing repeated takes between marks, etc., where the puller is really going on timing vs. being able to see and react to focus. Thus I'd estimate that FF cinema won't really be usable (at max shallow DOF) until there is decent computer assisted (AI) MF. Basically a high quality remote focus pull motor+gear system being controlled by the camera (in-lens FF cinema AF perhaps in a few years). The Sony Venice (or Sony with a new camera) are most likely to provide this, though ARRI and even Red could probably do it too. If not using new sensors with phase detect elements, sonar, IR, laser, separate optical systems etc. will be needed (similar to cine tape).

Keep in mind at the high end, especially product advertising, ultra high end lenses and cameras are requirements, and thus won't be going away any time soon.

I think in the camera space most of us here use, Sony Venice color (or better) in something like an A7S III (provided it comes with 10+ bit and low RS) is looking to be a kind of end-game camera until something more radical is available (e.g. computational cameras which exceed the A7S III's quality and features). For now, there's nothing motivating me to move from the 1DX II as the main stills+video camera; the EOS R could replace the 80D though for a small/travel camera. So despite Canon's declining market, I'm still looking at Canon due to the lens collection and overall features for my current needs.

 

[Gary T]

As the market adjusts, traffic to this forum has been dropping too.

I think one reason for traffic dropping is seems to be pretty hard for new members to be approved, and from what I can see there hasn't been a new member approved on DVXUSER since August of last year. I've seen of posts asking why it's takes so long to get approved on on this site and at BMCUSER.

Forum spam is a menace everywhere so I understand it's probably difficult to filter the bad actors, especially if you are a volunteer Mod. Unfortunately for this site and at BMCUSER it means new real working professionals have to wait in line with the bad actors.

 

[jb.]

I've noticed while it takes months get approved as a new user, it takes nearly no time for a "Buy and Sell" post to get deleted if it violates the rules.

 

[puredrifting]

...something like an A7S III (provided it comes with 10+ bit and low RS) is looking to be a kind of end-game camera until something more radical is available...

Aren't Sony's A7 variants a bit outdated technology for 2019? 100Mbps 8-bit for 4K? Really? Why do people get all pumped for cameras that record inadequate data and bit-rates?
At least my cheapo XT-3 can record up to 400Mbps in 10-bit? I actually shoot at 200Mbps most of the time as it seems to be the sweet spot in recording enough data for UHD and not burning through card space on long shoots.
Still can't figure out why so many people are gaga for those cameras. I've shot with them twice and found the illogical menu structure, overheating, lousy color science and the ultra flatness of SLog to not be appealing, what am I missing?
I know, excellent AF. But not enough there to make me consider one. My producing partner sold his at a considerable loss, he hated it.

 

[jb.]

I'm with you on the A7 series. They're decent stills cameras, but the codec and other compromises for video are pretty bogus. The color response, especially the sickly green skin tones before correction, is my primary complaint. I tried to love the FS5II and various A7s, but I just can't.

 

[DLD]

Sony bigwigs have been claiming that the A7SIII has been delayed because, once it's released, it'll be the greatest thing since their full frame bread slicer. Or something like that.

Looking at the innovation with the smartphones and their cameras - a gigantic competitive industry with multiple entrants and hundreds of billions of dollars at stake - it seems pretty obvious that the Japanese conglomerates in charge of the photo video market want to grind out the last pennies out of the old models. That keeps their margins high but the total sales lower than they would have been otherwise.

Right, NorBro?

 

[jcs]

Aren't Sony's A7 variants a bit outdated technology for 2019? 100Mbps 8-bit for 4K? Really? Why do people get all pumped for cameras that record inadequate data and bit-rates?
At least my cheapo XT-3 can record up to 400Mbps in 10-bit? I actually shoot at 200Mbps most of the time as it seems to be the sweet spot in recording enough data for UHD and not burning through card space on long shoots.
Still can't figure out why so many people are gaga for those cameras. I've shot with them twice and found the illogical menu structure, overheating, lousy color science and the ultra flatness of SLog to not be appealing, what am I missing?
I know, excellent AF. But not enough there to make me consider one. My producing partner sold his at a considerable loss, he hated it.

The A7S I was challenging, I got decent results from the A7S II, though not as good as Canon (especially after color tuning and creating Filmic Skin). From what I've seen online, the A7 III looks pretty decent for skintones for those who spend a little time tuning the camera / doing a little post. That said, agree cameras should ship with default settings that look great, requiring no tuning or tweaking whatsoever. That's why ARRI is still king for color- you're going to get decent default colors for skin tones, right out of camera as long as you set WB and expose correctly (if shooting e.g. ProRes; if raw, still need reasonable exposure though it's still one of the best if one has over/under moments while shooting (e.g. live/verite/doc and can't really repeat the take). Canon and Fuji can do a reasonable job (Canon DSLRs need a custom picture style, e.g. to prevent crushed blacks (or use CLog when available)).

From my research, the FF BSI sensor in the A7 III is superior to anything on the market at that price point (including the X-T3, except for perhaps RS). The issue is Sony using crippled codec settings. Everyone's hoping the A7S III will have 10-bit, lower RS, no overheating, and decent bitrates (with choices between H.264/265)). If Sony provides Venice or better color, and not crippled somehow (e.g. can't use with log etc.), then it's a camera that will get my attention. If the A7 III has a green issue, it's really easy to fix with WB offset (I did a couple clicks magenta and sometimes a bit of red to get good skin tones out of camera for the A7S II). Agree this kind of tweak should not be needed (e.g. what are they thinking / how can they ship cameras like that)!

I recently did a shoot in Utah near Bryce/Zion where the subjects were in a covered 4W ATV in direct sunlight. I held a simple reflector to get some light on them, and exposed to protect the highlights on the 8-bit 1DX II. The white clouds came through unclipped and the shadows didn't have too much noise (using Filmic Skin 1 (max low contrast) picture style), so I'm getting enough DR out of the 1DX II with those settings. I can also get really good 4K 60 along with Canon colors (prefer over Fuji & Sony) and the stills are also 'market leading', so I'm not needing the extra DR and detail yet that the other cameras provide. Also note the RS on the 1DX II is decent (especially 4K 60).

If I needed a really small (body + lens) high-detail travel camera, the X-T3 would be on the list, especially if it can work with one to three lenses (e.g. wide range zoom and fast primes). Otherwise, I'm liking the EOS R (using many L lenses on hand) as long as there's isn't a lot of camera motion (RS: a gimbal solves that).

 

[Run&Gun]

I think one reason for traffic dropping is seems to be pretty hard for new members to be approved, and from what I can see there hasn't been a new member approved on DVXUSER since August of last year. I've seen of posts asking why it's takes so long to get approved on on this site and at BMCUSER.

Forum spam is a menace everywhere so I understand it's probably difficult to filter the bad actors, especially if you are a volunteer Mod. Unfortunately for this site and at BMCUSER it means new real working professionals have to wait in line with the bad actors.

I've noticed while it takes months get approved as a new user, it takes nearly no time for a "Buy and Sell" post to get deleted if it violates the rules.

I signed up on REDUser back in June and never received full approval. Signed up again in February and finally got full approval in April. Although I believe their traffic dwarfs DVX many times over.

Post something political and see how fast there's at least a warning thrown out

 

[jcs]

Sony bigwigs have been claiming that the A7SIII has been delayed because, once it's released, it'll be the greatest thing since their full frame bread slicer. Or something like that.

Looking at the innovation with the smartphones and their cameras - a gigantic competitive industry with multiple entrants and hundreds of billions of dollars at stake - it seems pretty obvious that the Japanese conglomerates in charge of the photo video market want to grind out the last pennies out of the old models. That keeps their margins high but the total sales lower than they would have been otherwise.

Right, NorBro?

If they don't cripple the A7S III, it will be an amazing camera and probably significantly affect Canon, Fuji, Panasonic etc. sales. Seems like they are playing nice for the other brands- Sony clearly has the best hardware technology by quite a bit. It also looks like they've been holding back on color too, since the F35 and F65 (even F55) have pretty excellent color: they know how to do it right if they want to.

It appears NorBro was downvoted off the island (that's what he stated before no more recent posts (I added the island part)).

A reminder that many people are here to share their experience with the ultimate goal of helping others. It's OK to disagree and state why (politely), however downvotes because one doesn't agree appears to be mostly emotional as in "I don't like this person's point of view" vs. not helpful. I stopped posting humorous responses and/or pushing people to think outside the box / think for themselves as it resulted in a massive downvote response. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter, however if one's intent is to share experience and help others and one's posts are getting downvoted frequently, the style / message of the posts isn't as effective as it could be.

 

[DLD]

It seems like Fuji is stuck with the APS-C sensors (what a deal!), while getting a preferential treatment on the Medium Format, which is mostly stills territory at this price point.

Meanwhile, Oly's stuck on the MFT, with Panasonic likely limiting the number of MFT models of their own.

The Big Four are racing for the FF crown. Canon will likely concentrate on stills, with their videocentric "low MPX" models going Cinema EOS route (100,200,300 - 400/500? - 700). With A7III racking up huge numbers, it makes little sense for Sony to release A7SIII in the similar price range. My hunch is that A7SIII has been ready for a while but A7III stole its thunder.

 

[jcs]

The business calculus for the A7S III could be to wait until sales of the A7 III drop to a threshold before launching. Also possible market competition required design changes too. Figure the A7S III to be at least $3k, so wouldn't completely take out A7 III sales. If they don't cripple it, launching at $3.5K could even work.

Canon has a bit of work to do with DPAF and sit down side-by-side two shots: focusing on no one when one person turns head. Losing face track should lock onto nearest object or at least the other face- this looks like a bug. If the latest AI AF for Sony/Fuji do a better job, that's motivation to look at these other brands. Canon could release a firmware update to fix (understand that's unlikely given Canon's record).