General Think I made the wrong camera choice...

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Some of you guys are set in your ways and are following "the rules" too much, I did that too for a while but let's face it guys this is a new territory, so anything goes.


This is a camera first and a video shooter second so we can do whatever we want with it. Pro's are treating it like they would a film-camera. It's so fuddy duddy, it's 2010 let's try different things.

If we push this sucker to it's limits who know's, maybe we'll pioneer a new filming method. If the pro's really knew it all then why are they learning from us DSLR filmmakers? Why are guys like Sam Raimi snaking no-name internet directors from youtube?

The indie filmmakers have finally showed 'em all how it should be done and they're kicking themselves for failing to take notice earlier on.


We're already doing the right thing, they just wanna slow us down before we beat 'em to the finishing line.
 
John FB sell your HS what 20 , save some money and get (or rent ) an HMC 150 get Barry's book on the hmc 150 learn and breathe this camera.
- It's got built in nd filters
- no jellow
- 1080/720 modes in various flavors 24/30/60p even 60i
- Very filmlike dof . 7d's dof is much more shallow.
- built in audio controls , waveform ,etc
- no jellow
- OIS
- pretty good in low light , still need a light source ofcourse .
and no jellow .

And a collapsible lcd viewfinder less strain on your back so you cant tell your wife your not up to it !

There's is no need to go higher than an hmc 150... because when your on the editing table .... you can cut it with any other camera, just make sure the images you've recorded we're properly exposed.....,no I have no cut it with red footage :)

PS: if you really crank up the sharpness you can get some nice aliased images out the hmc 150 :)


JohnFB I am not jerking your chain if your pretty serious about doing videography /cinematography .Your best bet would be the HMC 150 or a similar camera.
Id then get a 7d/gh1 as B camera - medium and headshots. ...good with photography well there's your extra income.


Goodluck !

Just got a call my tokina11-16mm has arrived and I will mainly be using it photography.
 
Shigeta said:
Don't go with a full manual control camera for your first. You need to learn and get expirence shooting learning angles, and getting good at storytelling (since you said you're not filming live events)

Stick with that HS20 (or similar consumer camcorder) and learn what to shoot, and after all, picture isn't everything when it comes to a good story.
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A long time ago, people made indy films with 8mm.

But that doesn't mean that everybody has to learn how to make films with 8mm today.

Technology is progressing. And we need to keep up with the progress.

So I say: Sell the camera you bought and buy a dslr.
That way you'll know the time we live in. Instead of being a step behind.
 
tommetass said:
A long time ago, people made indy films with 8mm.

But that doesn't mean that everybody has to learn how to make films with 8mm today.

Technology is progressing. And we need to keep up with the progress.

So I say: Sell the camera you bought and buy a dslr.
That way you'll know the time we live in. Instead of being a step behind.
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I agree with this 100% people are "used to" seeing things a certain way these days and they expect more of the same. Filmmakers need to look at youtube and the kinds of people audiences are subscribing to, that's where they go when they're not watching movies or TV.

When I make a "70's look movie" I can get away with it because the audience has the unconscious reassurance that I used modern technology to get the job done. Regular people can be shallow like that IMO.

It's the same with Rodriguez movies, everyone I know is going nuts for that Machete trailer. Although it has a retro look, it has modern technology behind it and people trust in that.
 
Dang, this thread is getting long, but I like reading the discussions, and I have been reading more and more about everything.

Everts, I don't have that kind of money lol

Quick process of what happened, people seem to think I have the HF S20:

Wanted camera for short creative stuff, making small storys, music videos for my friends, and entering video contests like that Doritos Superbowl one which I actually entered last year had a friend film on a old professional SD camera lol, etc., (I'm not actually planning to make a 2 hour movie with this, that would take alot of time and work, I'm not experienced at filming as it is)

so this is what happenend:
So I researched, decided on the HF S200 because I thought it could produce highest quality for the cheapest, and it had the most manual controls then right after I purchased I saw this video
http://vimeo.com/11558577
HF200 is a really old version, so is the T1i in that video, but after seeing that I was like "uuuuuggghhhh"

So then I started researching and found t2i, posted here, was able to cancel my HF s200 order, and now I'm waiting for them to credit the money back to my bank (3-6 business days lol)


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I live in Florida, there arn't any camera shops around here, my town barely has any new technology besides best buy and their camcorders are all out of date. I'm sure if I could try both of them in my hands I could tell which one I'd want.

Anyway, about this DoF stuff... I never planned on buying the camera for DoF really, I was amazed by it's crisp picture quality. Infact I got curious about DoF just yesterday and read up about it, supposedly to get large (as in little to none) DoF you need a wide angle lens, high f/stop, and to be away from your subject. Is it possible to get a large DoF with this camera? Cause I don't want every shot to be blurry.

I watched that house episode and every scene was like blurred to hell but a few of them, namely the ones where he rode up on his motorcycle seemed to have everything in focus. It would be cool if this camera could do both because DoF does seem to add a sort of "professional" look to videos, as long as you don't overuse it that is. Honestly I think that House episode overused it, I like the DoF where it's not super blurry but just -slightly- blurry in the background, where you can still see objects kind of like that Vimeo video I posted, notice how the BGs slightly blurry. But I would also like the option of having almost everything in focus. Imagine I had to do a scene of someone running from 1 foot of the camera to 25 feet away from the camera, I would like to have him in focus the hole time with the objects around him, not get blurred out after going from 1-5 feet.

The DoF Thing has got me pretty worried, it's the only draw back I have now with this camera.

Other then that I really find this camera to be an awesome choice, I'd need the same amount of gear with my HF S200 (besides lenses) then I need with my T2i anyway here's the list of pros/cons basically I made up


HF s200:
+Longer Recording
+Large DoF
+Focus Tracking/Face/Object
+Shutter Priority/Aperture Priority modes (Semi Manual Control)
+Auto mode (point n shoot)
+24p, 30p (in 60i)
+Better at reducing aliasing / rolling shutter? (not sure)
-Shallow DoF
-Image Quality
-Full Manual Controls
-Interchangeable lenses
-Worse Photo Quality
-Bad at Low Light


T2i:
+Video Quality
+Shallow DoF (I really don't care about it that much though)
+Full manual controls
+24p, 30p, 25p (At 1080) 60p, 30p (720)
+Interchangeable lenses (So if a body with actual good auto focus, or face tracking features ever come out I can slap them on it)
+Photo Quality
+Low light
-Large DoF (Not sure of this, someone please clarify lol)
-Good Auto Mode
-Moire/Aliasing / Rolling shutter (I think theres a filter that reduces these though)
-Short Recording (Doesn't really bother me)


lol not sure if I missed anything, got kind of confused when writing it out but eh I think I've read up enough to choose which one, of course leaning towards the DSLR but wow I have actually found a camera shop 70 miles from where I live that have the DSLR in stock, I think I'll drive down there today and try it out and talk with them about it.

I've learned alot already from this one thread and everyone here, so just would like to thank you all. There is so much damn stuff I didn't know about this camera that I learned here, geez. And yeah Trauma, everyone really should read up on all this stuff before buying a DSLR, I'm sure glad I did so I know what I'm in for.

Oh, about the follow focus, is this the cheap one you guys are talking about?
http://www.dfocussystem.com/
There's some DIY instructions on there too, looks pretty cool.
 
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Get the T2i. If you work around its limitations you can do amazing things with it. As far as DoF is concerned, don't worry about it - with the T2i you can have crazy shallow DoF or deep DoF, with a simple aperture change. Say you want super shallow DoF? Shoot at f/1.8. Deep DoF? Change the lens aperture to f/5.6 and you're good.

I would 100% say get the T2i. You can grow on that camera. You won't be disappointed.
 
JohnFB said:
D
HF s200:
+Longer Recording
+Large DoF
+Focus Tracking/Face/Object
+Shutter Priority/Aperture Priority modes (Semi Manual Control)
+Auto mode (point n shoot)
+24p, 30p (in 60i)
+Better at reducing aliasing / rolling shutter? (not sure)
-Shallow DoF
-Image Quality
-Full Manual Controls
-Interchangeable lenses
-Worse Photo Quality
-Bad at Low Light


T2i:
+Video Quality
+Shallow DoF (I really don't care about it that much though)
+Full manual controls
+24p, 30p, 25p (At 1080) 60p, 30p (720)
+Interchangeable lenses (So if a body with actual good auto focus, or face tracking features ever come out I can slap them on it)
+Photo Quality
+Low light
-Large DoF (Not sure of this, someone please clarify lol)
-Good Auto Mode
-Moire/Aliasing / Rolling shutter (I think theres a filter that reduces these though)
-Short Recording (Doesn't really bother me)
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I have the HFS200 as well. The aliasing and rolling shutter is MUCH reduced. Also, it has image stabilization as well built in.

I'd also say the image quality is not bad in full light, it's actually quite good, but not as good as the HV30 which I also own.

Pertaining to the T2I, you can get deep focus, it's just you have to stop down the lens a lot so you end up needing a lot of light sometimes. That's not the problem though. When you are deeper focus, there can be aliasing and moire ALL over the place in situations, like a city, with lots of bricks and lines. On Canon cameras, the moire is worse because it is colored red and blue and gives a rainbow effect. You will KNOW it when you see it.

There are filters that help at certain focal points and certain focal lengths, but I will be honest, it is SO hit or miss it's not worth it. I don't even put my caprock on my lens anymore because it works in so few instances.

Also, in camera there is NO WAY to know if the image has aliasing or moire in 1080p. The camera does not allow you to zoom into the playing back video, and when you zoom in before you shoot say for critical focus, you don't see it there either. For urban settings I use a 720p monitor, or, use a computer like Trauma, although I've not tested that. For the 7D I can say for sure that the computer monitoring is NOT the HD signal that gets recorded because I cannot see the moire yet it's recorded and I can see it when I play it back.

Once you get the camera, test test test. I'm pretty good at working within the limits of the camera now. Some scenes I just have to deal with the fact I cannot shoot them how I want and give the scene a little soft focus to deal with the issues. Again, test test test.

I hate the manual controls on the HFS200. I hate how exposure compensation works and can be set. It's a GREAT camera for shooting just general purpose video, but anything involved, getting matching footage with the minimal of information it gives you can be tricky, and time consuming to check. With the T2I at least you can see all the settings and work accordingly.
 
gabrielflorit said:
Get the T2i. If you work around its limitations you can do amazing things with it. As far as DoF is concerned, don't worry about it - with the T2i you can have crazy shallow DoF or deep DoF, with a simple aperture change. Say you want super shallow DoF? Shoot at f/1.8. Deep DoF? Change the lens aperture to f/5.6 and you're good.

I would 100% say get the T2i. You can grow on that camera. You won't be disappointed.
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Haha, yeah I don't get what people mean with this.
Up the aperture..*Woops* problem solved..

So the negative thing would be that the HF doesn't have the shallow DOF..

Or you'd have to zoom in like crazy..
 
Rather than us all squabbling and debating let's make a video for John and physically show him the many limitations to DSLR filmmaking instead.

It's all well and good everyone boasting about how incredible these things are but people need to see their faults and failings too. I'm not talking about making an "anti-DSLR" video but just a lil' something that will help people make smarter decisions

I'm tired of people ignoring those issues or pretending they dont exist. People are getting ripped off.

John if you're aware of these obstacles now you'll be prepared for them later. I've written a mini-novel here but I only did so because I wanted to help you out.

I'm a dreamer like you, I often get lost in my imagination because I'm so creative. I'm not trying to put you off, I just want you to fulfil your artistic potential.

DSLR filmmaking is a new medium, it requires new approaches and techniques. Trying to use one of these things in a "traditional way" is pointless. I learned the hard way. Look at that episode of House, it says it all, some scenes were unwatchable. It was like being on bad drugs.

I have no idea why everyone is praising that episode of House, see what I mean? All some of these guys care about is the "image quality", they're so caught up in that they dont care about overall quality.
 
TraumaBunny said:
I have no idea why everyone is praising that episode of House, see what I mean? All some of these guys care about is the "image quality", they're so caught up in that they dont care about overall quality.
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I watched the same episode you did and thought it was cinematically and emotionally involving, even more so than the usual House episode.

Like I said, opinion is a personal thing. Yours and mine seem to differ on this point.
 
That episode of House has received so much unnecessary praise. On Phillip Bloom's blog some of the comments (about it) are just outright fanatical and deluded. These people are just supporting each other in remaining ignorant and delusional.

They are going no where.


Everyone is talking about the "image quality" like it's all that matters. It's all they care for, perhaps they're using "image quality" in an effort to make up for their lack of creativity and hoping people will get dazzled by that instead. Who know's... "I have no talent, no imagination but hey it doesn't matter because the image quality is great... please watch it in HD..."

If some of these people cared for an "artform" they'd hire their own composers to score their Vimeo movies or write the music themselves. They wouldn't use that damned instrumental piano or acoustic guitar soundtrack all the time.


All I'm seeing on Vimeo is high quality images with a played out instrumental score supporting them. How is that artistic? How is that even interesting? It's like looking at a corporate advertisement which says "buy Canon cameras..." lol
 
Stephen Mick said:
I watched the same episode you did and thought it was cinematically and emotionally involving, even more so than the usual House episode.

Like I said, opinion is a personal thing. Yours and mine seem to differ on this point.
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That's cool bro, that's fine. Some people like the Metallica's Load albums, personally? I think they suck lol

Like I said before, I watched that episode and understood why those things were happening on screen. My drummer doesn't give a rats about cameras or lenses, he just thought it looked gay and he was right (in my opinion)

It was like watching a bad acid trip or something. It hurt my eyes and gave me motion sickness (we didn't watch it while under the influence of beer or drugs, I promise)

Saying it looks artistic just seems like an excuse to me. Dont get me wrong dude I'm not attacking you or being confrontational but dont you think this is getting a bit crazy? I mean... all of these excuses aren't helping DSLR filmmaking, they're restricting it and keeping it trapped.

If we can all agree that something sucks we could find a solution to it together.
 
TraumaBunny said:
That's cool bro, that's fine. Some people like the Metallica's Load albums, personally? I think they suck lol

Like I said before, I watched that episode and understood why those things were happening on screen. My drummer doesn't give a rats about cameras or lenses, he just thought it looked gay and he was right (in my opinion)

It was like watching a bad acid trip or something. It hurt my eyes and gave me motion sickness (we didn't watch it while under the influence of beer or drugs, I promise)

Saying it looks artistic just seems like an excuse to me. Dont get me wrong dude I'm not attacking you or being confrontational but dont you think this is getting a bit crazy? I mean... all of these excuses aren't helping DSLR filmmaking, they're restricting it and keeping it trapped.

If we can all agree that something sucks we could find a solution to it together.
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I agree with you on one thing for sure: Metallica's "Load" albums do, indeed, suck. :D

But I don't see anyone "making excuses" for DSLR filmmaking in the case of House. All they've ever said was they wanted a particular tool for a certain look. That's not delusion. It's not crazy. It's smart and talented filmmakers/storytellers choosing the tool they feel is appropriate for the emotion they're trying to convey. Again, it may not have worked for you, but that doesn't mean it "sucks."

I sat next to my wife while watching House. Of course I was looking for all sorts of camera issues, while she was just watching. At the end of it, we both could have cared less what camera it was shot on. It was just another great episode of a very well-crafted show.
 
Okay, on the subject of things looking "artistic". I'm sat there watching that episode of House and laughing, I'm laughing because I'm thinking to myself "hahaha hey look guys, that happens when I film with this thing too"

So I know what they did in that episode wasn't meant to be "artistic" at all, it's just an unwanted side effect of filming with a DSLR and one they failed to fix. Everyone I've shown it to think's it sucks.

It was so reassuring knowing they'd spent tens of thousands to get exactly the same results as a filthy, cheapskate filmmaker like me. It actually made me laugh.

I'll be accused of being cynical now but c'mon guys, let's be honest for once. Please, stop pretending.

A while ago an old filmmaker said to me "listen kid high quality isn't everything" and I ignored him because I'm younger and hungrier than him. Now I'm realising that he was right all along.
 
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Stephen Mick said:
I sat next to my wife while watching House. Of course I was looking for all sorts of camera issues, while she was just watching. At the end of it, we both could have cared less what camera it was shot on. It was just another great episode of a very well-crafted show.
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Exactly the point I made just above your post. :thumbup:
 
I've alienated myself here anyway so I guess it doesn't matter anymore.

I was simply trying to help John, he seems like a fellow dreamer and I believe in supporting my fellow artists. He has a right to know these things before he wastes his money on crap he wont even need.

Have you guys seen that movie Platoon where Willem Dafoe's character schools Charlie Sheen? He walks up to him and is like, "you dont need this *throw's it away* you dont need this... *throw's it away*..." we need that guy to sort some of us out too!

I love DSLR filmmaking, I've said this so much now but I'm using it in a new way. I'm doing new things with it, things which are "against the rules". I'm not the only one!

I'm doing this because I have no other choice but to

I feel strongly that all the pro's and all the traditional filmmakers out there will eventually abandon DSLR's completely. I think they're just going through an experimental, "I used to be indie but now I'm a suit" phase possibly fuelled by an impending midlife crises or nostalgic desire to feel "young" or "hip" again.

We're the younger generation of filmmakers and we'll be the one's who change things, not them. They've had their day and it's over. They should just stick with what they do best.
 
Quality does matter, just as does the story. How much it matters is a personal taste. If someone was jumping up and down while recording a movie for every shot, it would be unwatchable. It's doesn't take a million dollars in camera equipment to do that. You can have the best story in the world and the most horrible actors and the worst cinematography and no one is going to want to see it. It all comes down to knowing your audience. If that audience is only you, then you certainly have a lot more freedom. Once you put others into the equation, they become a consideration, but not the end all be all defining factor. This is especially true when your income depends on it.

And I absolutely disagree that they are going through an 'indie filmmaker' period. What they are enjoying from these cameras is convenience. The whole reason they used the DSLR cameras on House was said to be because of the tight cramped locations they wanted to film. You cannot do that with traditional film cameras and many digital cameras, as they are too big.

What the DSLR revolution is about in my observations is about size, about sensitivity, and about S35 sized sensors that smaller handycams don't have.

Given the Scarlet S35 and Epic from RED, these cameras have the same footprint in terms of size, but are designed FOR film and ergonomically designed as such. If anything, I see filmmakers moving away from DSLRs into other cameras designed specifically for film where the negative aspects of the DSLR have been addressed and fixed. Like Panasonics new S35 camera coming out at the end of the year (although the form factor I am not a fan of).

You act like these filmmakers out there are old and stuck in their ways, I'd recommend doing some research into their methods and desires. Look at Peter Jackson and his RED camera and him pushing the envelope. I could go on, but the list is too long. These older film makers (many of them, not all) are totally excited about the new prospects these new technologies are bringing. They are curious, just like you, to see what they can do, because they are artists. Everyone likes to add new tools to their bag of tricks when doing film.

I invested in a DSLR because the form factor IS the future. I also have saved up for a Scarlet Fixed and plan to get a Scarlet S35 brain in the future. I am not a professional, but I am NOT shooting on film. Just like in my studio, I don't record to tape, I use a DAW (and many of them).

Also, if you haven't seen them, go check out the Zacuto DSLR to Film shootout. While I could care less about all the dialog in the rooms, the information is great. They don't talk about Moire or Rolling shutter, but everything else is pretty much covered (in terms of image quality). VERY informative.
 
One of those pampered suits from Zacuto should come hang with me someday, they'll learn a new thing or two.


When I release my films everyone will be copying and emulating me. Everyone will be on my dick and pestering me for advice, everyone will want to learn from me and the pro's will be watching in the corner and crying like menstruating girls.

Because I'll be the no-name up-and-comer who did it.

I am doing things which are new and exciting, you'll assume I'm being an arrogant, snotty little prick right now but you'll soon see.

I am "The Matrix"

Just kidding!!! Relax, I'm just kidding!!!

Or am I...

lol seriously though, that guy is out there somewhere just waiting to "happen"... we're all waiting for our DSLR Jesus aren't we...

That's the thing, the fact that so many people react so fanatically to this footage is a sure fire sign that they're insecure and skeptical about DSLR filmmaking. People get angry and over-defensive. They need endless reassurance that it works. Perhaps they've forgotten why? it's OBVIOUS why, anyone in their right mind SHOULD be skeptical about DSLR filmmaking.

That's how solutions are found.


Phillip Bloom will make a DSLR video and everyone will go bananas. "OMG LOOK HE DID IT, IT'S A SIGN!!! IT'S A SIGN!!!" it's like watching toddlers over-reacting on Christmas morning. They'll watch his videos then rush out to copy him. Where are they going? No where.


Look at those gay webisodes Zacuto made, that Camera Shoot Out thing, they should've just renamed it to "we're on Canons dick" instead. I watched that thing for a laugh and got just that, a good laugh.

I got a good laugh from that episode of House too.
 
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