Viddovation
Veteran
Good points... that only give credence to the notion that Sony may be on the verge of offering something that makes REDs current pricing not competitive.
The New F
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Good points... that only give credence to the notion that Sony may be on the verge of offering something that makes REDs current pricing not competitive.
Grug
Veteran
It's really quite unsettling. The strange thing is, it's an incredible helpful and knowledgable community - you just have to stay away from the sub-forums dedicated to Red and the Cameras themselves, all of the accessories/cinematography type sections of the site are terrifically helpful resources.
ectobuilder
Veteran
The best way to do things is to make the customer Under Expect and then Over Deliver. So when they are Sabre Rattling it means probably that it won't really exceed expectations. If we look at the BMC camera, and how the launch was executed (from my perspective anyways) they had zero hype and let the merits of the camera speak for itself.
ectobuilder
Veteran
Even with the new restructuring of Sony, I think they are still too big to have their ear to the pavement to listen to the whispers of the cinema community. As long as large cumbersome companies like Sony are shackled by their own politics, companies like Red will always have the opportunity to capitalize on missed opportunities.
Jason Davenport
Well-known member
I know...Your right , they have some good stuff there, no doubt. Just lov'in the "can do no wrong" super-fans.
Sony should delay announcement till Nov first, just to see how Red would react...You know,.. with the storm and all...?
LiamR
Well-known member
Sony should delay announcement till Nov first, just to see how Red would react...You know,.. with the storm and all...?
Sony aren't one to bow out like a coward.... ;-)
With all due respect, you are wrong. Sony has been listening and indeed soliciting input. We may either like or dislike their response, but they are listening
Ned
Viddovation
Veteran
Mind you, I don't have Ned's insights, and I'm pretty much just an End User, but I started my career in News, and I see it differently than you do.
Yes, Sony's a big company, and yes that can mean it takes longer for them to adjust strategies, but I liken it to trying to turn a tractor trailer - it's going to take longer to turn than a little sedan, but once they've adjusted course, they can plow through anything.
When the F3 was launched we were told it was the beginning of a road map. Sony's other divisions make 4k projectors, and apparently 4k television has been codified for consumers as "Ultra HD" and will begin to hit the market this Christmas.
Sony's professional products were historically geared towards television. All the ENG shooters I know swear by Sony. Because it looks great, and it works. Now that the digital era is blurring the lines, Sony is making a course adjustment. It's taking a few years to fully make the turn and get up to speed - but I don't doubt the destination.
"Sony started digital acquisition. But lately, they just haven't kept up."
Are you kidding?
Never heard of the F23, F35, F65? The groundbreaking F3 and FS700, democratizing the large sensor HD world? The percentage of feature films and TV dramas shot with Sony cameras far exceeds all other manufacturers (probably all others combined.)
Sony is WAY more than "keeping up"-- and on October 30 they will prove it once more.
Are you kidding?
Never heard of the F23, F35, F65? The groundbreaking F3 and FS700, democratizing the large sensor HD world? The percentage of feature films and TV dramas shot with Sony cameras far exceeds all other manufacturers (probably all others combined.)
Sony is WAY more than "keeping up"-- and on October 30 they will prove it once more.
The F65 is Sony's Epic competitor. I don't think they're introducing another one. I think they're introducing a C500 competitor.
The C500's price/performance compares poorly to Epic's and did not force Red to lower prices. I don't think Sony's C500 competitor will be different.
Grug
Veteran
You think so? I think price/performance-wise the C500 is actually quite unique in the market at the moment, offering the only half-way point between F3/C300/Scarlet price/features and those of Epic/Alexa/F65.
starcentral
Veteran
Boy things really are getting interesting now!
Trick or treat everyone, trick or treat!
The replies are hilarious!
[with some comedic license]
"Oh my god! Jim, you are the most amazing human that has ever lived!"
"Gee whiz, Jim - I appreciate that you have reinvented cinema!"
In some ways, I have a ton of respect for what RED has accomplished and in other ways, I remain annoyed by their approach. They entered the market by experimenting on the unsuspecting, providing a marginal and unstable product that required huge amounts of fiddling and finger crossing. RED managed to re-write the book on resolution by adding up all the horizontal pixels and calling that the resolution - confusing many. They have certainly learned some lessons and now have a better system, but not without some blood and tears along the way. I am completely independent from any camera manufacturer and I speak from a couple of decades experience owning and using high-end camera systems in cinema and broadcast as well and designing and manufacturing many high end modifications and electronics. I don't want my camera to be an experiment - EVER! I don't want to worry about my camera on a shoot day. I don't want my camera to require any special treatment. This is why Sony has kept my interest over the years - they have never made a camera that I felt uneasy with - willing to bet my career on.
I am not saying RED is evil or makes bad pictures - I just like the history and methodical approach to building a complete system that Sony has always had. Even if there were less pixels, megabits, or something else - they always seem to work in the worst of circumstances. RED has not yet earned my trust as they have just recently created a system in my opinion.
i hope this is not to rant-ish.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Y'know, Sony isn't THAT big anymore. They've hemorrhaged and lost a lot over the years, their TV business basically disappeared, and now they're down to about a $11.9 billion market cap. Sure, that sounds large, but consider their arch-rival Panasonic is now bigger than them ($14.4 billion) and that Apple, the company that out-Sony'd Sony, is a $567 billion company! Yes, Apple is valued by the market at over 40 times what Sony is.
Apple's earning $45/share, and Sony's losing almost six dollars per share (and since their valuation is only $11.85/share, losing half that value per year isn't a good long-term trend).
Now consider that the vast majority of Sony's revenues come from non-broadcast, non-video-oriented things, like the Playstation, and it starts to shape up that as far as their broadcast business goes, it's not really all that big. Consider that the entire Imaging Products & Solutions section of their business did only about 13% of the total sales of Sony overall. And of that 13%, what (probably tiny) portion of that was broadcast? And of that probably tiny portion, what vastly tinier portion was large-sensor camcorders (versus traditional broadcast, and monitors, and media, and decks, and whatever else they sell)?
So are they a big bumbling behemoth who's too big to listen? Not anymore. They were, yes, they were profoundly arrogant and disconnected and overbearing, and they got their *** handed to them in the marketplace. But maybe that finally woke them up, because this sure seems like a New Sony. Now they're turning out really interesting products, at a furious pace.
People know I've been a fan of the Panasonic lineup since 2003, when the DVX100 was first introduced. People don't necessarily know that prior to the DVX, I was a Sony-only guy, but frankly they haven't made a product since 2003 that I thought was interesting enough to buy. The FS700 came close, but I can't stand the form factor, the F3 was pretty close but I hate the XDCAM codec and didn't want to have to go to multiple boxes, etc... But from what I'm hearing grumbled about the new F cameras, I think Sony has decided to bring a gun to the gun fight. At least in the top professional arena, targeting the Canon Cinema series and the Red series.
Too big to listen, and too big to respond? Not necessarily... check out the announcements before writing them off entirely.
Luis Caffesse
Admin
Barry_Green
Moderator
It probably is the most gracious thing I've said about them. But seriously, they seem to have done an about-face, they're listening to the customer, and they're competing heavily. If all I'm hearing about the new F's is true, I could seriously be a customer for one of them. And if that happens, it'll be because they earned it through product engineering and delivering features that end customers want and need.That is the most gracious thing I've heard you say about Sony in years.
Nate Weaver
Veteran
Somebody on Twitter is saying the "Launch" is tomorrow at 3pm NYC time.
Is this a private event, and info still under embargo until midnight, or do they let the PR go tomorrow at 3pm EDT?
Is this a private event, and info still under embargo until midnight, or do they let the PR go tomorrow at 3pm EDT?
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