Specs changes...

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D_and_G said:
Again, thanks Gibby. I guess I was mainly thinking only about S35 lenses and characteristics for S35 FOV and DOF. Of course, using S16 lenses makes a lot of more sense for your applications. You'd know way better than I when 2K S16 would be applicable. Yet, I can see where a 2K RGB 60fps using S35mm might be incredible - in fact, I thinking of accompanying a friend (who covered the Molson Indie) with that in mind - Some S35 glass on surfing in Hawaii was another excuse I was going to use for a trip.
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For sure...whenever possible and practical we'll use our S35mm lenses for those sports programs. Even though we're after generally deeper DOF, the quality of glass on the S35mm lenses will increase the quality of the footage. Our Interview and creative b-roll camera will probably use S35mm lenses in 2k RC RAW @24fps. Even though the new chart matrix has blanks in the 2k S35mm and 35mm columns and blanks in the S35mm column for 1080p and 720p, I'm guessing that using the S35mm lenses for those image formats will not be a problem. Better glass for a better image when needed. We won't use S16 lenses if we have a better quality S35mm lenses available. We'll use the newly-announced RED Raids for recording with stationary cameras, and RED Flash for cameras that will have rougher treatment. By all means shoot the surfing in Hawaii using S35mm lenses in 2k REDCODE RAW @ 60fps. It will look amazing!!
 
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On the slowmotion concern, there's something that I don't catch. Why not 2K scaled in-camera from the 35mm lenses use?

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Gibby said:
For sure...whenever possible and practical we'll use our S35mm lenses for those sports programs. Even though we're after generally deeper DOF, the quality of glass on the S35mm lenses will increase the quality of the footage. Our Interview and creative b-roll camera will probably use S35mm lenses in 2k RC RAW @24fps. Even though the new chart matrix has blanks in the 2k S35mm and 35mm columns and blanks in the S35mm column for 1080p and 720p, I'm guessing that using the S35mm lenses for those image formats will not be a problem. Better glass for a better image when needed. We won't use S16 lenses if we have a better quality S35mm lenses available. We'll use the newly-announced RED Raids for recording with stationary cameras, and RED Flash for cameras that will have rougher treatment. By all means shoot the surfing in Hawaii using S35mm lenses in 2k REDCODE RAW @ 60fps. It will look amazing!!
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I'm happy seeing others with the same goal and worry but I'm afraid the point is around the suppression of the scale mode. The windowed alternative will give you the inconvenience of the magnification factor.

Secondly, is there any estimation on the RED FLASH device? Does it work as flash memory like the P2? How much will the storage ratio be for 60fps@4K? And prices?
 
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Emanuel said:
On the slowmotion concern, something that I don't catch. Why not 2K scale in camera from the 35mm lenses use?
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4k REDCODE RAW in-camera recording is limited to 30fps, not a high enough fps for slo-mos. If its a mobile, non-hardlined sports event, then 4K RAW data port 60fps, or 2K RAW data port 120fps is not an option if you want to maintain mobility for your crews. Thus 2k REDCODE RAW @60fps to on-board RED Raid and/or RED Flash is the highest resolution that will give you mobility and 60fps for the slo-mos.
 
Emanuel said:
The windowed alternative will give you the inconvenience of the magnification factor.
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The magnification factor is really desirable for shooting sports, nature, and many other genres. If we were using the RED S35mm 18-85 zoom as the interview and creative b-roll camera, even with the magnification factor, FOV should be fine. On the sports coverage or nature camera, using the RED 300mm, the magnification factor would be quite welcome. If you needed to get even greater focal lengths, you could also use a 2x between the camera and the 300mm lens.
 
Gibby said:
4k REDCODE RAW in-camera recording is limited to 30fps, not a high enough fps for slo-mos. If its a mobile, non-hardlined sports event, then 4K RAW data port 60fps, or 2K RAW data port 120fps is not an option if you want to maintain mobility for your crews. Thus 2k REDCODE RAW @60fps to on-board RED Raid and/or RED Flash is the highest resolution that will give you mobility and 60fps for the slo-mos.
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Yes, but precisely for that I'm asking why not 2K scaled in-camera from the 35mm? (well, or S35mm -- the same for the 4K: why not scaled from the S35? It will give us wider FOV range especially if the RED lenses will be manufactured thinking in the S35 sensor format)

Steve, please see my edit above-mentioned. [EDIT -- You beat me. You already read it: Well, I'm referring for narrative feature work]
 
I see what you're saying Emanuel. RED is listening and the camera specifications have not been finalized. I'm sure they will weigh all the input and balance that against what is technically feasible before finalizing the specifications. It wouldn't surprise me to see some RED team members post their clarifications of the questions raised on this thread. Even though some may not be 100% happy with the finalized specifications for their particular work niches, I'm sure we'll all agree that RED One will be an awesome camera with very broad utility.
 
Emanuel asks a good question.

The thing is Steve, is that if the 2K RAW on the chart is cropped and not scaled - which in previous posts Graeme has mentioned scaling RAW in camera is not possible - then you don't get the same FOV and DOF as 35mm with the advantage for s/n and dynamic range, being a 2:1 oversampled image. While not needing 35mm FOV and DOF in sports event and other mobile work, you're still losing the advantages of scaling to 2K with the SNR and oversampling.
All of that being said, we're still talking about getting 2K RAW@60fps (even if it's possibly in S16 image format) and at this price level, it's still an amazing accomplishment - especially for EFP, sports, docs etc...

For me, I look at everything with "how will it effect the quality on the big screen". Acquiring in 4K RAW will be a dream, but getting intercuttable footage at 60fps and 120fps will now be more expensive. I'm a big boy and I fully expected compromises (which isn't a pejorative word) along the way. Otherwise, we'd be expecting 4.5K up to 120fps to a 1TB on board flash drive. Whist these compromises are logical and in some respect expected; I still hope for ways to achieve the unreasonable at reasonable prices. Both artistically and monetarily - That's what "indie" is all about, IMHO. I have to reiterate that if someone handed me a camera that produced images, like we've seen from RED, that I'd be more than chuffed at this price point. That hasn't changed (with the usual caveat of "if they deliver to spec") :beer:
:beer: :beer:
 
Understood D_and _G.

I also shoot digital cinema projects. If they will be real mobile productions, then 4K REDCODE RAW @ up to 30fps, recorded to on-board RED Raid or RED Flash, will be the route I'll go. For most digital cinema projects 30fps on down should be fine. For the rare sequences where we need higher fps for digital cinema shots, then we'll either have to use the RAW Data Port to get 60fps, or possibly shoot 2k REDCODE RAW @60fps if mobility is needed, or 2k REDCODE RAW @120fps using the RAW Data Port if we can be stationary. Obviously then whether 2k is scaled or windowed would make a difference.
 
Gibby said:
For the rare sequences where we need higher fps for digital cinema shots, then we'll either have to use the RAW Data Port to get 60fps, or possibly shoot 2k REDCODE RAW @60fps if mobility is needed, or 2k REDCODE RAW @120fps using the RAW Data Port if we can be stationary. Obviously then whether 2k is scaled or windowed would make a difference.
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Native pixels' resolution and FOV (in the case of the SLR use: money*)

And I wouldn't call it so rare than that... :)

* For example, I thought to have a swiss-knife-zoom like the Nikkor 17-35mm lens is and now -- if the things will go like it was announced today, I'll also buy the Nikkor 14mm wide angle (@35mm 22mm instead 28mm). That's $1,500 plus. :( And I'll need my money for all the range of devices in order to accessorize my RED ONE. RED branded too. So, I'd say, aside the RED company's interest in order to satisfy their customers tomorrow (now reservation holders), it is also their own interest 'cause our money isn't elastic.

Well, I have all my confidence in the Jim's knowledge on his own business. He knows we need our money available for our future RED ONE units and respective accessories. Our outcome is theirselves too.


EDIT -- S35 + 4K scaled [2K scaled for slow motion purposes if the technology available can't handle the task from the 4K] @REDCODE --> REDCINE (from where we'll extract all the formats we want) would be the best route for the indie narrative feature work.
 
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All good points Emanuel! The specs haven't been finalized, so until they are, everything is subject to change. Once RED says the specs are finalized, we'll know exactly how to plan our camera kit lenses and accessories.

The fun part will then be taking RED One out to shoot in various settings, genres, and conditions, and then viewing the results...
 
I agree Steve. My only concern is time. I'll need to have a lot of the gear before my first RED ONE #111 arrival. I can't wait for some delays. Not for the RED ONE I hope. The business should be up since the day 1. And there will be other purchases to order.
 
I'm about to post the chart from red.com with the changes that I would make if i were in charge....but before I do that I'd like to say something that I don't think has been emphasized enough...
Jim, you're amazing. You are creating the most exciting product that I've ever heard of for filmmaking, and I'm proud to be one of the reservation holders. You and your team have pushed to create the most cutting edge camera possible, and as it stands the camera still has more than I'd need to create amazing films.

So admits all of our contesting and trying to milk every advanced spec out of the camera that we can, know that the work of you and your team is incredible. :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)
 
Emanuel said:
I agree Steve. My only concern is time. I'll need to have a lot of the gear before my first RED ONE #111 arrival. I can't wait for some delays. Not for the RED ONE I hope. The business should be up since the day 1. And there will be other purchases to order.
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I know what you mean. My first RED One is serial number 008, so I'll be one of the very first users that will need to outfit a RED camera. I have a RED 300mm lens coming the same time as the camera. I already have various cine- primes available to me, and some manual Nikkor lenses. I also have a RED 18-85mm lens reserved. When a B4 mount is available, I have lenses available for that. I'm not worried about my camera kit in the slightest - curious, but not worried. More than anything I'm just anxious to get out shooting with #008. By the time my second RED arrives (#700), I should have the camera kit options fully dialed in.
 
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I'll second that Fatbird19...

I'm sure the RED Team will smile when viewing and hearing about the many quality projects that users produce - knowing that they were enabled by RED's hard work in bringing this new camera system to us.

Thanks RED...
 
As others have indicated: you cannot do scaling in RAW, only in RGB. When shooting RAW you either record the full sensor or you window (crop) it.
 
I think I could have been mistaken, but I was under the impression that under the previous specs you could go 2k windowed and get 120fps recorded straight to the red drive or the mini raid drive. If that was indeed part of the previous specs that I would cast my vote to definately bring it back if possible. Everything else looks great...I will gladly shoot redcode 4k and use redcine to scale down or do whatever else I'm going to do that is format related

:dankk2:
Omar
 
FatBird19 said:
there's only a 12% resolution difference between 2k and 1080p. I wouldn't worry about it.
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I beg to differ.... Not so much the resolution that I'm worried about but the amount of data.

By Some estimations it's 65 GB / Hr at 1080 RGB and 23Gb/ Hr at 2k RAW. think about a years worth of shooting archived.... I don't so much mind buying the drives, that's only money which I can easily charge my clients for bigger drives. It's the time to copy or process the footage - hard to replace time and there is not a clear set precedent for how this will be billed in a commercial / music video enviroment.

But if it CAN'T be done or it does not make sense or it's not going to look good. fuhgeddaboudit....

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
 
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