Red for ENG/EFP USE

[HKSC 2007]

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[alacritymedia]

EFP Enablers

EFP Enablers

Great thread.
The first design priority for the RedOne is and should remain DC but there is more to the story than just arbitrary labels. What are the differentiators?
Will the project ever be shown 30' wide? If not then...
Will the operator be solo or will there be a crew?
What legacy workflow/operational methodology issues need to be addressed and which will die off shortly anyway? (Example - how important is composite output from the head)

I think that we need to dispense with the crutch of saying that any particular image quality issue is moot because content is king or bandwidth is expensive. I think of myself as someone who helps build assets for my clients and the higher the image quality the greater the long terms value of the footage. A portion of news footage morphs into historical library assets but obviously that is a limited subset. Note; I fully agree that operational assists like auto iris, focus, zoom, etc make it more likely that you will nail the shot that gets licensed 100 times.

When the RedOne first ships it seems likely that it will need the care and feeding of a crew to integrate it into established workflows. What can we as a community of shooters/DoPs suggest to the Red Team that will help them avoid creating barriers to kitting the camera up for EFP in the near future?

In the latest round of prototype showings there is a "port" to attach either a RedFlash or a data pipe. In the spirit of modular and upgradable is there a way that this can be the access point for a EFP targeted connection pack. It would need to be 2 way for CCU like control. Have a plug to allow lens info to be displayed in the EVF, etc. Have I jumped the shark? My dockable Sony DXC30 head has a 72 pin connector that allows me to mount DVCAM, BetaSP, Triax, 25 pin CCU, etc all to the same head. Perhaps there could be a "bolt on" solution for the multicam world but it is only viable if the design of the camera would allow enough avenues of access to functionality and status displays via the tap. Maybe the "bolt on" pack would have its own viewfinder tap, com tap, etc.

The issue of an IT style workflow clashing with established methodolgies goes beyond the RedOne camera. Whether its P2 cards, RevPro, XDCAM or whatever the interim solutions all create a "takeaway" physical item. In the short term the lack of that hold it in your hand piece will be a big roadblock for many projects. I am so convinced of the magnitude of this issue that I am planning to kit up a van to support the RedOne in the field. I believe that I need to offer producers an on site solution that creates back-ups and can spit out the media type(s) they specify. The transition from tape based to data based media will happen sooner than many think because post is done with data files. Want fast turnaround times - give me a way to tap the RedFlash into a laptop, maybe the Express34 card slot? Will this be available the day the camera ships, obviously not - but that doesn't mean that the RedOne will never be the best choice for EFP.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19

 

[HKSC 2007]

Metadata from REDCODE is Important as well for " Digital Asset Management " stand point. CONTENT IS KING but ONLY " You can search "

 

[androbot2084]

As far as a delivery format for electronic news gathering if the television has made the switch to high definition news broadcasting would it be too much to expect the station to accept news footage mastered on a HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disc ?

 

[filmmaker1977]

There would be little to no difference in focussing a RED camera working in 2K windowed mode compared to an ENG / EFP camera - you look through the viewfinder and make a judgement (ignore focus assist for the moment)

hey mr english,

i expect don't ignore the magical focus assist.. nor the use of the 35mm lenses and 4k sensor area including to an ENG / EFP setup.. even if the focusing is more critical.. but 4k and 35mm lenses is an unbeatable combination.. specially for doc and gun doc work..

 

[Stuart English]

Focusing RED in ENG (or EFP)

Focusing RED in ENG (or EFP)

I agree filmmaker, I was just commenting about focus in a 2K windowed ENG application, where there had been comments that RED "would be difficult to focus" It isn't, even without using focus assist. With the combination of high viewfinder resolution and focus assist it should prove to be much easier.

 

[Gibby]

Mikko,

Electronic news gathering (ENG) is but a small percentage of the overall amount of television programming that is broadcast. Almost all of your comments were addressing ENG. RED One is primarily designed for DC and non-hardlined EFP production. Within certain parameters, RED One can also be of some limited use for ENG. The specs for RED One have not been finalized, so drawing hard conclusions on what RED One will or won’t do is risky. EFP can be divided into hardlined and non-hardlined production. Hardlined EFP is typified by television studio, television station, and broadcast truck production. Oftentimes non-hardlined EFP has been termed ENG-style because many sources (including Wikipedia) tend to classify EFP as studio or trucked production, and ENG strictly as news gathering. Documentaries, news magazines, sports, commercials, interviews, events, corporate programming, and many other genres typify non-hardlined EFP. I feel RED One will be very good for use in those non-hardlined EFP genres, obviously excellent for DC, and still have some reasonable utility for ENG uses. I explain in my answers below.

- The need for a mattebox to ad ND. There's no time for filters in the ENG world.

There is time for filters in the ENG world, via the built filters and filter wheel on ENG cameras. RED One doesn’t have built in filters, so in fast-paced ENG work that’s a problem, but in medium to slow paced ENG work, or EFP work of almost any kind, manually dropping filters in a matte box, or screwing filters onto lenses shouldn’t be a problem.

- Non compatibilety with broadcast lenses. No exsisting lens gear liek zoom controllers, or spare lenses, will work.

The lenses available arn't new firendly. Zooming is a staple of ENG, and EFP work. How do you follow a football player or a politician if you can't zoom smothly. (Something that needs the electical system to ensure soothness).

With the B4 adapter announced by RED, and undoubtedly other 3rd party B4 adapters, all B4 broadcast lenses will be compatible with RED One. RED has confirmed a 12-volt auxiliary power outlet on RED One. That power outlet enables power to accessories, including easy adaptation of multi-pin power for the servo-zoom motors of zoom lenses. As Stuart English just noted on this thread, even without the focus assist RED One should be easy to focus in 2k on down resolutions because of the deeper DOF and the 720p resolution of the EVF and LCD. This makes use of RED one for ENG and EFP work faster than it would be with 4k/35mm DOF and a standard resolution monitor or EVF.

Look at where broadcast lenses are going: Canon's new line of digi lenses have memeory and focus-tele presents, just for speed and conveinience. Non of this is available with red.

True. Though these lenses would mount on RED via B4, the functions you named would not be enabled. If you absolutely have to have those lens features, then RED One won’t be the camera to use.

- News isn't about Shallow DoF. It's about seeing the content of the picture. Of course shooting in windowed does eliminate this problem.

That’s a generalization. Establishing shots have deep DOF, but many medium shots have medium DOF, and close-up shots used to isolate subjects are shot with relatively shallow DOF. Nobody would be shooting news in 4k. It would be in 2k windowed, 1080p, or 720p, thus getting deeper DOF is not a problem.

- Auto-iris. As allready discussed a lot. “Better way” or not, Auto-iris is what is used, and is needed. Look at the HVX, Panasonic put in a special “News gama” mode, that sacrefices exposure quality just to help make sure that you can see everything in the shot. When you are walking backwards in a mob of people all trying to get the best shot, you have barly enough time & space to get the camera pointed the right way, let alone look at a histogram (if you can see it!). The moment you glance away to set exposure the competitor allready has the shot.

I’ve made a living out of being in the biggest media scrums on the planet and still consistently getting top-level shots. Example: right on the field right after the end of the NFL Super Bowl, and fighting with a mob of 300 cameramen for the best shot. You can view some of those results on my production web site. For ENG, auto iris is definitely more desirable for many situations. Oftentimes RED One won’t be a good ENG camera without it, but for most non-hardlined EFP applications using a histogram in the periphery of an EVF and/or an LCD should be fine, especially if you’re shooting 2k REDCODE RAW, where you can set exposure for an average of the scene and then easily tweak the exposure in post.

Also the implicaions of no CCU control immediatly wipes out RED from consideration as a Mutlicam camera head in any Technical Operations Manager's mind.

The tech specs of RED One have not been finalized. When the specs are finalized, and there is no CCU control in the specs, then it can be assumed that for hardlined studio ENG and hardlined EFP applications RED One won’t work. Let’s wait until the final specs are confirmed to make this judgment.

- Other camera controls. Buttons & status display on the back mean you have to take the camera off your shoulder to change any settings. .. And even to hit record? (As there is no REC button on the lens). Again, not ENG friendly.

Taking the camera off your shoulder to change camera settings would be something to get used to. If the buttons are easy to operate it could make changes fairly rapid. It you’re using RED One with a RED Rail or other shoulder brace, and using B4 broadcast lenses, they could be powered by the 12-volt accessory power, thus if you used a servo-zoom unit connected to the bottom of the lens, and it was mounted on the handle under the RED Rail, you would definitely have record and zoom functions on your right hand. If you had the same B4 broadcast lens, and weren’t using a handle under RED Rail or a shoulder brace, you would still have zoom and record functions on the back and top of the servo-zoom motor – exactly what ENG and EFP shooters are used to.

Where's the BARS switch? Or the Gain Switch on red? Or the White Balnce switch (I know, you shoot RAW and CC in post, but ENG often doesn't have post. We live in a world where Cellphone video goes live to air, not through some colorists workstation. I can't remember seeing scopes in a News-cutting bays very often either). How about mic level control? Or my monitor volume control. These are things that are the same in every ENG camera, so that it works without thinking about the camera. You get to concentrate on the shot and million other things going on. In news content is king.

The specs for RED One have not been finalized. When they are, and there is no Bars switch we’ll have to figure out how to deal with that. I can’t imagine them not including color bars, but who knows. There will obviously be a way to control the iris. When used in unison with the histogram, that is effectively adjusting “gain”. Plus you can use REDCINE to adjust the gain if you shot REDCODE RAW. If you don’t want to shoot RAW, or it doesn’t work into your post workflow, shoot RGB. RED is including four XLR jacks, and it seems reasonable to assume that they will also include the ability to adjust levels on those four channels, and the ability to monitor the audio via headphones. OK – control layout is the same in nearly every ENG camera, so that is how they should be forever? I’ve shot extensive ENG and EFP with ENG form factor cameras, and yet I seem to have no problem learning now ergonomics and adjusting to new cameras. If someone is a professional shooter and they are so set in their ways that they can’t (or more often won’t) learn alternative camera ergonomics and use, well I guess that’s a problem – for them.

(Continued in my next post)

 

[Gibby]

-Very few ENG or EFP connections in camera. Ok, we have Genlock in and HD/SDI video out. Every single news or production truck on the planet can accept a Composite signal. SDI is definatly common, but not EVERYWHERE by a long long shot. What about a monitor on a Jib? Or a tallent monitor? They all need Composite.

Again, the RED One specs have not been finalized, so it may end up with some connection buses that are not currently listed. There are very affordable HD/SDI converters that offer composite out. HD/SDI is very common in HDTV productions. The RED One 720p detachable LCD, with a cable extension, could be used on a jib or a Steadycam. RED One has been projected to have an HDMI bus. HDMI is also backward compatible with DVI. HDMI and DVI are obviously quite common inputs for monitors and HDTV sets. Inclusion of fiber has also been mentioned since the announcement of the camera.

Then MiniXLR inputs? Oh come on. Now you have to carry adapter-cables around all day in case someone needs to plug in a mic for a report or into the press-feed. Make that 2 cables, as you always need a backup of cables because they are the first thing to break.

Carrying a few simply large-to-small XLR dongles around in our gripbag or backpack is a major hassle? I don’t see it that way. The MiniXLR buses don’t sacrifice audio quality, and using them on RED One helps keep the form factor of the camera small.

More connections: No Communication connections what so ever. No Teleprompter output. No Return Program video. All things that quickly kill it as a EFP camera.

Again, the specs have not been finalized. Non-hardlined EFP is a gigantic portion of the overall quotient of EFP production. RED One needs very few workarounds for non-hardlined EFP production. Communication in non-hardlined EFP is via portable radios and headsets and teleprompters are rarely used.

- Battery mount. Or rather a lack of. We need an externally attached battery mount? I can't remember the last time I saw a ENG shooter with out the battery mount built into the camera.

Changing a battery is changing a battery. It shouldn’t take any longer to change a RED One battery than to change an NP or brick battery on an ENG camera.

How about power consumption? When you have to carry all yoru batteries aroudn with you, power useage is important. RED one isn't going to be light on power due to all that goes on inside her.

Again, the specs for RED One have not been finalized and RED has made no statement about RED One’s power consumption rate. It’s a solid-state camera that doesn’t have the huge power drain of a tape deck – like ENG cameras do. RED One batteries will be small and light – unlike the huge bricks that most of us ENG and EFP shooters have always had to lug around in our backpacks.

- Recording format. Radically new is great, especially when it's a thousand times better than anything else. But not when you need garunteed reliability. When I do TV work, the #1 requested format is still BetaSP. It's analog for god sakes, but damn it if it's EVER been turned down as “oh, we can't do that” DVCPRO and DVCAM are up there close behind. Just about every station has a DSR-1500 deck ready to go so that they can play any DVCPRO, DVCAM, or DV tape you throw at them.

I’ve been using Beta SP since it was first put in production in the 1980’s, and I still use it when clients insist. My SD programs are mastered in Beta SP and Digi Beta. I also use DVCPro and DVCAM extensively. I’m well aware of legacy investments and stubborn attitudes to change. However, virtually every television station, no matter how small, has computers with USB buses. If I’ve shot my footage RGB, and I do regular work with that particular station, I can make arrangements to simply download my footage to them via USB from RED. If they need it in standard definition, it can be down converted via REDCINE to 480p before offloading. If they edit via an NLE, I can get them a copy of the REDCINE software so that they can process the footage as the want for non-time sensitive uses, then edit it in their NLE. USB hard drives are dirt-cheap now. I will make arrangements for delivery of my footage on a small, cheap hard drive to as many clients as possible. Progressively we’ll see Beta SP disappear, and the stations and networks that still use DVCPro and DVCAM will always have the ability to do the USB transfer to their NLE as described above.

I dare someone to try selling calling up their local station and try selling them some important news footage on a “RED drive” or perhaps on a Hard drive? “Red who? *click*”will be your answer.

I’ve polled many of the stations and networks that I string footage to and they seem to have no problem receiving my footage on a hard drive. They all have NLE editing systems and are quite familiar with hard drive use. If it is quick turnaround programming they are using it for, the footage on the drive will need to be in a resolution and file type that they can quickly put into their workflow. If the footage is for a non-time sensitive program, then I’ll simply deliver in the resolution and file type they specify. There is a proliferation of stations and channels switching over to high definition for their news. Many of them want top-quality high definition B roll for their bumpers and teases. That’s where RED One will shine.

- Workflow. Related to recording format, How fast is REDcine?Is it: The media comes out of the camera and into a deck and goes on the air, or into ingest or right into edit? Because that what ENG needs. Can I edit a 3minute package during the 20minute drive back to the station in the back of the newsvan from Red? Can I take a 5 mintues interview and insert a couple of B-roll shots and have the tape ready to air in 3 mintues?

Good questions. Why don’t we wait until the final specs of RED One are released before jumping to conclusions on what the answers may be? If it isn’t a fast enough workflow for your needs, then don’t use RED.

At IBC this year I saw a demonstration of a team of 2 people assembing all the content for a news broadcast in 10 mintues. They took a XDcam disc from a camera of “Breaking news” footage and stuck it in a deck with 50 seconds to air and still had it cut in time for it to be the opening shot of the program. Can RED do THAT? beacuse thats what News today needs.

Again, when the specs for RED One are finalized, we’ll have an answer for that. News is only one small portion of television programming, so if it ends up that RED One isn’t cool for the ENG niche, that certainly doesn’t mean that RED One can’t be excellent for most of the other longer-turnaround television programming genres.

My comments, though often rather cynical, and in this post a little “demeaning” are not meant to be a RED bash, but rather represent how I, and others, react based on the needs for our jobs. You think the folks at Cinematography.net where harsh? Try one of the ENG photog forums. I only critisize to help contruct, I'm sure you understand.

I'm not saying that RED should be able to do all these things. It shoots the best digital images on the planet for god sakes. But I am saying that RED shouldn't claim to be the “camera for all situations” which it clearly isn't.

We’re all involved in the same business, whether it is DC, EFP, or ENG – and that’s creating images. The divisions between those related workflows are disintegrating. Huge numbers of programs now use production values of DC and EFP within the same program. Even ENG, when it isn’t time-sensitive material, and/or it is HDTV news, is in the midst of changing production values. I work extensively in DC, EFP, and ENG. I’ve also used ENG and EFP cameras from all major manufacturers throughout my career - and I still do. I also review DC, ENG and EFP cameras for magazine articles – most recently the HVX200. You can find details of my background on my production web site. I see RED One as being a great DC camera that can be easily accessorized for very effective non-hardlined EFP, and occasional ENG stringing. If someone else sees it different, or wants to continue in an equipment scenario that they’re comfortable with, fine, life is full of choices. Have at it. But if you tell me I’m wrong to use a camera in a certain way, and I know I can use it that way, rest assured your criticism will be falling on deaf ears.

Everyone's input is valuable here. You've raised some logical ENG-use concerns. I've simply outlined my input on those issues. Dialog is good, and this is a good thread!

 

[alacritymedia]

Mikko v Gibby - The Cage Match

Mikko v Gibby - The Cage Match

Mikko raised some great issues though he jumped to some conclusions I do not share. Gibby very ably took on these issues and his takes jibed with mine pretty closely. The key here is the rapid disintegration of the entrenched paradigms of the various genres of production. If you believe the only tech that is viable is the tech that works seamlesly with the existing infrastructure then pigoenholing the RedOne as a DC camera only is easy. While I lack the depth of experience Gibby has, I have been in this business long enough to know that a camera package that can shine in a wide variety of settings is of great value. Based on where the design is currently on this still "in development" camera IMHO it will be the best tool for all but a tiny number of unusual applications. As an operator I find that the lens itself, not the camera body, has the biggest influence on how quickly and easily I can nail a shot. Does the focus ring move smoothly enough for me to accurately track focus with my pinkie? Etc.

Let's talk hardlined EFP. I implore the Red Team to design an open access topology that will allow the development of an full featured interface for hardlined EFP. In the most recent mock-ups of the RedOne there is a "port" that the RedFlash or a data "adapter" can attach to that would seem to be the logical way to make this happen. In a typical hardlined application I build up a studio kit that includes focus, zoom and (if there is no shader) iris control on the tripod handles along with a box lens, 5" CRT viewfinder and comm. What I would call the "hardline EFP pack" could include a connection to the iris servo on the lens that would bypass the camera head, it could have a viewfinder output that allows return video and other info without involving the head, comm tap, etc. Even if the only thing the camera head can do is spit the image data this "EFP pack" can provide most of the functionality needed to work with established infrastructure, if the RedCode is too non-standard then the first iteration of this solution can just take the HD-SDI out and run it down the line to a CCU type device that has multiple connection options and sits near the switcher like current CCUs.

Geez dude, why go through all that when I can just use a Sony or Panasonic head? Assuming the information from the Red Team and images they have shown are representative of the camera's performance capabilities then my first response is because the image quality beats the pants off any 2/3" CCD based option. How about exposure latitude off the Mysterium sensor. How about the idea that once the demand is there that a hardline EFP kit that includes a module on the camera and a CCU at the switcher would sell enough quantity to put the price point in line with existing solutions. The head itself is cheaper and has a much longer projected lifespan since it already does 4k which the Sony, Panny and Thompson heads cannot.

When the RedOne first ships it will only thrive in its own insular world, I'll give you that - but, IMHO within 2 years after it hits the streets 3rd parties and the Red Digital Cinema Camera Company will offer a plethora of solutions for using it for virtually every image capturing demand you can think of. With the exposure latitude of film and the low operating cost of data based workflows (that are rapidly maturing) the RedOne will become the camera of choice from the feature world right on through the corporate space. As one of the earliest reservation holders that was, and is, where I place my bet.

Blair S. Paulsen
RedOne #19

 

[Gibby]

Thanks Blair...and well stated on the likely future of RED and the need for an EFP hardline pack. I definitely agree with your concept on that, and the additional projects it would enable. Whether that is created by RED, or by a 3rd party, there is a definite need for it.

The addition of an EFP hardline pack would be sweet icing on an already delicious RED cake!

 

[mikkowilson]

Good discussion.

That EFP pack - similar to a "Studio Back" on a tradiational dockable camera - would be sweet.


I totally agree that there is so much about this camera that we (anyone) don't know. Features subject to change is very very true, and that is my motivation for participation in this discussion.

These are all issues that are important to me as a possible operator, and therefore surly important to someone else too. They haven't been discussed in this way yet, so I'm bringing the questions to the table.

I agree with Gibby that we need to wait and see what the final camera will do, and then what accessories will be available to do, before we cast the camera aside from any application. But at the same time I want to keep my feet on the ground, there are many things I still don't agree with. For example; external filters can be used prety fast yes, but just as the XLR adapters, or downconverter (with power supply [or cables]!) that's stuff to carry that adds up quick when you are packing it around all day every day.

Again, the formfactor, like everything, may change, but the currently relased specs of the controls on the back is a major issue that I don't see much of a workaround for.


I mean not to jump to conclusions, but to anticipate issues that could cause trouble later. I'd rather talk now than after it's ready and say "well sh-t, it doesn't do that". Hindsight is 20/20.
Think of my comments as an early form of pre-production.

- Mikko

 

[Stuart English]

Comments

Comments

Your comments are absolutely taken in that spirit Mikko, its very useful to get everyone up to speed on how the camera works in different applications. My main concern when disucssing this is that we don't confuse ENG (news) with EFP (production) which have quite different signal quality and monitoring and post production needs. This camera's feature set is clearly optimised towards single and multi-camera EFP and Digital Cinema applications, and much less optimized for ENG tasks at this moment.

 

[Muttondraw]

Stuart

It is clear that RedOne is not going to be the best solution for hard line ENG. The interesting area is the ENG, EFP crossover. It is not so much that there is confusion of ENG (news) with conventional EFP (production) but single person EFP sometimes requires very high signal quality and high production values but with very limited resources. Does that make it ENG? No. But it doesn't necessarily fall neatly in the EFP camp either, personally I quite like the expression ENG/EFP to describe this application, but I can see how it might be confusing.

But the important thing is that I don't see the kinds of compromises required to use RedOne in this role are any worse than the kinds of compromises people currently accept when using domestic camcorders to shoot single person EFP or low budget movies. It is all about whether it is do-able or not do-able not whether it is ideal. The compromises are accepted because the payoff is considered to worthwhile. Realistically hard line ENG is probably not do-able, but single person EFP is. It isn't possible to design a camera which is all things to all people but can we push the boundaries with RedOne? From what has been reported so far I think it is going to be likely.

I believe it all comes down to the price point. RedOne is cheap enough that people will use it outside of it's clear comfort zone. To me there seem to be parallels with the domestic camcorder market in the 90s when first Hi8 and then DV camcorders started to be deemed of sufficient quality to be used for specific broadcast applications. This time the push is top down rather than bottom up, higher end kit is being applied to lower end applications.

Martin

 

[Stuart English]

ENG / EFP configuration

ENG / EFP configuration

"It is not so much that there is confusion of ENG (news) with conventional EFP (production) but single person EFP sometimes requires very high signal quality and high production values but with very limited resources. Does that make it ENG? No. But it doesn't necessarily fall neatly in the EFP camp either, personally I quite like the expression ENG/EFP to describe this application, but I can see how it might be confusing"

Martin thank you, you have very accurately described our terminology dilemma. This style of single camera, perhaps multi-camera, mobile production is a very important application for the RED camera. My only objection to using the term ENG when discussing RED, is that a lot of people immediately start explaining why this camera isn't ideal to produce the local news stations 24 / 7 reportage.

So despite EFP not necessarily being the most ideal term either, its the one I prefer to use and perhaps we can move forward with some suggestions for names for sub categories of EFP - such as hardline for example.

 

[Erik Olson]

Starsky's bored...

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