Red for ENG/EFP USE

mikkowilson said:
RED ONE will be a D-cinema camera, not a Television Camera..
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Well Mikko, RED One is being designed primarily as a digital cinema camera, but it definitely intended for alternate use in EFP and ENG. I produce extensively for national and international television and I've reserved two RED cameras. I also know of scores of other EFP and ENG professionals who have reserved RED One cameras. I believe RED has had direct interest from multiple television networks for RED use in their EFP production. Your statement flies in the face of media convergence, whereby a huge portion of today's shooters now shoot both DC and EFP, and elements of both styles are included in a huge portion of television programs. Here’s some verifications from RED this week that RED One is also intended for the EFP and to some extent the ENG production market:

“Fact is RED_ONE can operate in all three of these applications. Its suitability for the Digital Cinema application is obvious. And with the available RED-FLASH solid state magazines and wavelet proxy file extraction, it has the fundamental technology to suite ENG too, but the reality is the Electronic News Gathering market is driven by long term business relationships and there are existing products such as the DVCPRO series and XDCAM installed in that application. However, the EFP market is not driven by those kinds of contracts and although "ENG like" in its accessory requirements the camera performance requirements in EFP are much higher.

Thats why our focus is on delivering the highest quality and operational flexibility for Digital Cinema and EFP applications, plus satisfying broadcast oriented ENG customers that wish to adopt our unique workflow.” Stuart English, Post #26 of this thread.

“The bottom line is that the RED ONE will make better images than any ENG camera you can buy. The sacrifice is auto-exposure (questionable feature if you have a histogram) and servo zoom control (on, well). Given that you can make better images and record to a small drive, easily convert REDCODE RAW to anything you want while maintaining a "digital negative" for future use... there is no question that the RED ONE needs to be looked at as a "next generation" ENG camera. If 35mm DOF is a concern, shoot S16mm lenses and a windowed 2k. Still more info than any ENG camera on the market.” Jim Jannard, 12/1/06, DV Info, http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80544&page=3

If you’re saying that RED is not optimal for hardlined television production that is true. Remember, the final specs for RED One have not been released. Since a huge portion of television production now involves non-hardlined EFP and ENG-style production, and a modular RED One is being designed to be accessorized and used for those genres (see Jannard and English quotes above, and the RED One proposed specs), your blanket statement that RED is not a television camera is erroneous.

There was an entire thread on this subject, that ran here from 9/28/06 to 10/19/06, 183 posts, 19 pages, on this exact subject, two months before the confirmation this week from Jannard and English that RED One was additionally intended for EFP and ENG use.
Link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=72900

The previous thread, Stuart English’s statement on this thread, and the confirmation from Jannard should have finally proven the notion that RED One is intended for DC, EFP, and to a lesser extent ENG. RED One was conceived as a modular and flexible camera system from the very outset, primarily as a digital cinema camera, but secondarily as a system that can be accessorized for EFP and ENG use. Those of use that shoot all three styles really look forward to that broad utilitarian value. There will be challenges and workarounds for certain styles of shooting, but nothing that is insurmountable.
 
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go go gibby and show.. some guys here seem to have other interests around the sony wing.. jannard said a few days ago and they keep the *****.. what do you guys expect that our conclusion drawn will be?..
 
filmmaker1977 said:
... some guys here seem to have other interests around the sony wing.. jannard said a few days ago and they keep the *****.. what do you guys expect that our conclusion drawn will be?
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I'm not sure what you mean here? Are you saying we cannot have a conversation that includes Sony or Panasonic or Thomson/BTS/LDK or JVC here in a thread committed to ENG and EFP production when those manufacturers control roughly 100% of the marketplace?

Those manufacturers have invested billions of dollars in developing today's crop of products, creating suites of coordinated HD tools that have rapidly changed the way we all work in ENG, EFP, news, reality and documentary. Sony and Panasonic in particular have put HD and Digital Cinema into the hands of a market that could only be described as independent cinema five years ago. There was nothing there but a bunch of beat-up 16mm cameras before Sony and Panasonic took an active interest in the segment.

XDCam (which I gather you were referring to) represents one of those quantum leaps forward within the mainstream broadcast production field - that is why it is already deployed so widely in news and reality programming.

P2, to a lesser extent, has an opportunity to take a foothold in mainstream production once Panasonic delivers (or at least explains it to producers who make the $$$ decisions) the promised post-production and data management tools to facilitate the robust physical production workflow.

RED is part of the discussion only because of what they promise to do, not for what they have done in the past. When looking at trends, whether you're trying to match or break them, you can only look at what has been done before - and that is decidedly the realm of Sony, Panasonic, BTS, Philips, Thomson... for now.

e
 
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There will be challenges and workarounds for certain styles of shooting, but nothing that is insurmountable.
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I hear ya Gibby.:)
Mikko, Lets not forget the price of the red one for all other uses. It is cheap by camparison in many areas. True it does not look like it is the best camera out there for some of the various "other uses" but as a camera for digital cine most say it will excell so lets give it a likely 5 stars for cine production. As a multi purpose camera for all uses what does it deserve? Indeed if you listed the positive and negative points for a whole host of uses it will probably not get 5 stars in some uses, it might only get 3.5 stars for ENG since auto features and deeper DOF might go against it (guessing), but i bet it would get 4 stars in a significant portion of uses. As Jim Jannard stated, it does not have auto features. So it loses a star because some people will require an instant focus in certain cIrcumstances and unless you are a real expert at focusing with the red one you might well loose out on that aspect.

The red one with red flash will have pre-record. That is surely a big plus in many instances. Also with red flash combined with the red cine workflow it is looking like a real winner....a massive winner if priced sufficiently low, this is a potent camera. When you add what the final image might look like plus the new follow focus which again sounds like it will beat "anything else" on the market today in terms of fast/accurate manual focusing (an educated guess) plus the ability to use it in wondowed mode. The extra frame rates and IF red can get the 120 FPS working in higher modes, would that not also open the door for even greater uses.

I gather from what Steve has said and i include comments from others in a similar vein, it is that red can cover so many other areas so well that it is likely to be a great camera to own. If you made a list of positive and negative aspects of red (and Steve has partly done that already) then the lists of positives continue to grow ever longer. The good news is that the short list of negatives has the potential to be reduced more so than the already long list of positives has of being reduced (i think anyway) and that is really mindblowing when you think about it!

My only real worry just now is the ability of red in putting all of this together and getting it all to work really well. A few months ago someone commented about the production aspects of things and basically said that things can happen! things just don't work as expected and the unknown can and frequently does hold back the production line (Sony playstation etc). We are all asking for so much so soon that i just hope that what we have as current specs comes to being without major hitches. I hope the sensor once fixed down performs to expectations.


PS: Overland i think you make great points without any bias and you clesrly have loads of experience. You only need to look at the BBC in Scotland to see how well XD HD cam is taking off. They alreadt have everything in place...everything. BUT red might well have them beat with red flash and red cine?
Michael
 
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I'm just of the oppinion that RED doesn't have the features that todays ENG and EFP profesionals (the people that do this day in day out, for a living, not ebcause they love it, but because it brings in the bread ... the people you see in the mobs of reporters holding the cameras above their heads or cahsing the president around, etc...) need to do their job to the best of their ability right now. And that's what counts.

- Mikko
 
RED in ENG and EFP applications

RED in ENG and EFP applications

Mikko,

I respect your opinion, could you summarize how you come to that conclusion? This is a good debate.
 
I agree. Not that you couldn't but it seems silly to me to put a 2/3" HD ENG lens on a Red and record 720P or 1080P/i and go tromping around a press line. However, I can see doing many Doc/Interview style TV shows on red, some I already shoot cine style in 24P on the DVX and HVX. So not all reality TV is out of the scope of Red.
 
I agree, this is a good, and important debate.

Everything from the mattebox backwards isn't (curently) ENG friendly. Here's a quick list off the top of my head.

- The need for a mattebox to ad ND. There's no time for filters in the ENG world. Don't be silly.

- Non compatibilety with broadcast lenses. No exsisting lens gear liek zoom controllers, or spare lenses, will work.
The lenses available arn't new firendly. Zooming is a staple of ENG, and EFP work. How do you follow a football player or a politician if you can't zoom smothly. (Something that needs the electical system to ensure soothness).
Look at where broadcast lenses are going: Canon's new line of digi lenses have memeory and focus-tele presents, just for speed and conveinience. Non of this is available with red.

- News isn't about Shallow DoF. It's about seeing the content of the picture. Of course shooting in windowed does eliminate this problem.

- Auto-iris. As allready discussed a lot. "Better way" or not, Auto-iris is what is used, and is needed. Look at the HVX, Panasonic put in a special "News gama" mode, that sacrefices exposure quality just to help make sure that you can see everything in the shot. When you are walking backwards in a mob of people all trying to get the best shot, you have barly enough time & space to get the camera pointed the right way, let alone look at a histogram (if you can see it!). The moment you glance away to set exposure the competitor allready has the shot.
Also the implicaions of no CCU control immediatly wipes out RED from consideration as a Mutlicam camera head in any Technical Operations Manager's mind.

- Other camera controls. Buttons & status display on the back mean you have to take the camera off your shoulder to change any settings. .. And even to hit record? (As there is no REC button on the lens). Again, not ENG friendly.
Where's the BARS switch? Or the Gain Switch on red? Or the White Balnce switch (I know, you shoot RAW and CC in post, but ENG often doesn't have post. We live in a world where Cellphone video goes live to air, not through some colorists workstation. I can't remember seeing scopes in a News-cutting bays very often either). How about mic level control? Or my monitor volume control. These are things that are the same in every ENG camera, so that it works without thinking about the camera. You get to concentrate on the shot and million other things going on. In news content is king.

- Very few ENG or EFP connections in camera. Ok, we have Genlock in and HD/SDI video out. Every single news or production truck on the planet can accept a Composite signal. SDI is definatly common, but not EVERYWHERE by a long long shot. What about a monitor on a Jib? Or a tallent monitor? They all need Composite.
Then MiniXLR inputs? Oh come on. Now you have to carry adapter-cables around all day in case someone needs to plug in a mic for a report or into the press-feed. Make that 2 cables, as you always need a backup of cables because they are the first thing to break.
More connections: No Communication connections what so ever. No Teleprompter output. No Return Program video. All things that quickly kill it as a EFP camera.

- Battery mount. Or rather a lack of. We need an externally attached battery mount? I can't remember the last time I saw a ENG shooter with out the battery mount built into the camera.
How about power consumption? When you have to carry all yoru batteries aroudn with you, power useage is important. RED one isn't going to be light on power due to all that goes on inside her.

- Recording format. Radically new is great, especially when it's a thousand times better than anything else. But not when you need garunteed reliability. When I do TV work, the #1 requested format is still BetaSP. It's analog for god sakes, but damn it if it's EVER been turned down as "oh, we can't do that". DVCPRO and DVCAM are up there close behind. Just about every station has a DSR-1500 deck ready to go so that they can play any DVCPRO, DVCAM, or DV tape you throw at them.
I dare someone to try selling calling up their local station and try selling them some important news footage on a "RED drive" or perhaps on a Hard drive? "Red who? *click*" will be your answer.

- Workflow. Related to recording format, How fast is REDcine?Is it: The media comes out of the camera and into a deck and goes on the air, or into ingest or right into edit? Because that what ENG needs. Can I edit a 3minute package during the 20minute drive back to the station in the back of the newsvan from Red? Can I take a 5 mintues interview and insert a couple of B-roll shots and have the tape ready to air in 3 mintues?
At IBC this year I saw a demonstration of a team of 2 people assembing all the content for a news broadcast in 10 mintues. They took a XDcam disc from a camera of "Breaking news" footage and stuck it in a deck with 50 seconds to air and still had it cut in time for it to be the opening shot of the program. Can RED do THAT? beacuse thats what News today needs.


There are so many necesarry convenices needed for fast paced ENG & EFP production that RED just isn't designed for.

My comments, though often rather cynical, and in this post a little "demeaning", are not meant to be a RED bash, but rather represent how I, and others, react based on the needs for our jobs. You think the folks at Cinematography.net where harsh? Try one of the ENG photog forums. I only critisize to help contruct, I'm sure you understand.

I'm not saying that RED should be able to do all these things. It shoots the best digital images on the planet for god sakes. But I am saying that RED shouldn't claim to be the "camera for all situations" which it clearly isn't.

- Mikko
 
Definitly an interesting thread, great comments Mikko, thanks. I agree Red will not be best suited for ENG work, especially as today news will broadcast just about anything (quality wise) as long as the idea of what's going on gets through. It seems to me the priority of news casters today is to be the first ones to get the info out, quality doesn't really matter.

As to EFP, we agree we are talking about Electronic Field Production (not film production) right. Red may not be the best tool in some situations, for many of the reasons mentioned by Mikko and others previously on this thread. However for documentary style production, which I still count as EFP, it will prove to be an incredible tool, depending on the situtaion as good or better than high end HDcam or DVCproHD, with the advantage that you can do D-cinema also.

Personnaly, I do a lot of documentaries, but have been getting into fiction lately, I want a camera to do both. With the idea that some documentaries may make it to the big screen, if only in festivals. I've heard doc. distributors speak of documentaries made as features (90 minutes), winning festivals, but never getting a cinema release and only selling to TV in short form (52 min.), however the made for the big screen version helped the film gain success and helped to sell it. That's the wonder of Red, shoot your film (digital film that is) and make your TV and big screen versions at the same time.

So I want a camera I can configure for shoulder shooting, wether for documentary or fiction.

Cheers,
Damien
 
Great post Miko and very informative. I shall study those comments and see how many of those negatives might apply to my own type of work.

I know and others do as well that you are not anti red:)

To be completely fair to red (and everyone else really) no one has said that red is, the camera for all ocassions. What has been said is that red can be a great camera for cine use and a good camera for a host of other uses. Like i said, maybe a 4 star for a lot of uses and a 3.5 star for some of the uses you mentioned?

You have given a good account of the use for specific tasks and why red is not really suited for some particular uses. Surely though even in some of the uses such as news gathering you might get by perfectly well with the red camera on most ocassions but for the average skilled guy (if such a thing exists) you might not on others.

Maybe we will have to wait and see just how good reds focus assist is going to be before we progress on this one? Now if red was to say the focus assist will easily be able to be used for ENG news gathering without giving any other details, then that would surely change things?

Well red...... How magic is the focus assist is it suitable for a fast paced frantic focus as Mikko describes?

Michael
 
Yeah Mikko, A manual adjust lens, manual control camera is a poor choice for ENG/EFP. Until the lens and camera are one, integrated, programmable unit, the camera is best suited for controlled situations.

J*
 
Actually, Mikko spoke very little about focus. Focus is one tiny piece of the myriad missing from RED for ENG work.

I stated, on page three or so, that RED simply isn't designed for - and shouldn't be compromised for - ENG use. It simply is too much to ask of a camera that should be committed to cinema-style work where multiple takes are the rule, not the exception.

I'll argue again that, for EFP, long-form interviews, documentary and some reality, RED might well have a solid place at the table without much need for accessorized modification.

Like the CineAlta 2/3" cameras (F900, F950), RED may only be used for some beauty shots, while the lion's share of the greater work is lensed with 1/3" imager cameras in HDV or DVCProHD (oh, the horror!!!).

For single-camera film DPs, operators and assistants, RED will likely make a good, big splash - especially now that Genesis has made a good first impression with its roster of films released in 2006. The walls are tumbling down around celluloid-based cinema - we're literally less than a decade away from the tipping point. Jim might argue less. ;)

Contrary to what people may believe about Sony and the others who dominate the 1/2" and 2/3" or sports camera markets, they (along with the ENG/EFP lens manufacturers they partner with), have already delivered incredibly refined and elegant tools and formats that satisfy the vast majority of the market. They work as a Swiss Army knife does, doing many things pretty darn well.
Certainly well enough for television.

Historically speaking, it is in forcing them to behave and perform in place of a film camera that most have failed or fallen short. It's like demanding an Aston Martin Vantage (and... I need a tissue now) to go where a Land Rover Defender (been there, done that) does. It is simply an empty argument over something that should not happen.

It also doesn't diminish what the Vantage is in any way to say honestly that it has no business on any surface bumpier than the crushed-oyster shell drive at my private villa in Lourmarin. Enough of that analogy.

Let's look at who decries the ENG/EFP form-factor strictly from an ergonomic standpoint? Cinema people. Who laments the lack of resolution for filmout? Same narrow subset.

Who will resist broadcasting 2k and 4k like a cat would a cool bath in the sink? Networks, their affiliate stations and... sorry, the cable industry who doesn't want to pay for another upgrade to a system already threatening on the horizon: UHD.

So, there will be those who can make RED work in other areas and those who continue to use what works without too much thinking or re-tooling. Hopefully, in a couple of years, there might be a convergence for ENG work. I don't think it is going to happen with RED One, nor should it necessarily.

e
 
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I'm just catching up with this thread. This is definitely a good discussion. Respectful debate is healthy! I agree with some of the issues that have been raised, have partial agreement with others, and disagree with some of the points raised. I've been busy with other matters since my last post yesterday, but sometime later today, when I can get to it, I'll post my constructive input on the issues in question.
 
BBC has ruled out SONY XD CAM and Thomson 's REV format will be more cost effective and robust for ENG usage for Broadcasters. REV is CHEAP anyway.
 
TVB Hong Kong show their HD 1080 TV Look content in the D-Cinemas ( 4K ) in order to get new revenues but the Quality looks so bad for the 30feet D-Cinemas Screen.

TV Stations should reconsider thier investment on Digital Cameras NOT ONLY TV but LARGE SCREEN display as well.

STEWART CHONG
Hong Kong SC
 
Focusing RED in ENG (or EFP)

Focusing RED in ENG (or EFP)

There would be little to no difference in focussing a RED camera working in 2K windowed mode compared to an ENG / EFP camera - you look through the viewfinder and make a judgement (ignore focus assist for the moment)

There would be a difference if you were using 35mm lenses and 4K sensor area - then the focussing is more critical. But shifting to a 2K windowed mode using the same 35mm lens, or moving over to S16mm or B4 glass, the DOF is the same / similar to an ENG camera and so focus is just as easy.

In fact, its probably easier than on existing 2/3" HD-ENG cameras because of the higher resolution of the RED viewfinder compared to existing viewfinders.
 
Stuart, will the RED VF 720P ( 1280 x 720 ) in less than 5" , if SO. WOW !!!

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Stuart English said:
In fact, its probably easier than on existing 2/3" HD-ENG cameras because of the higher resolution of the RED viewfinder compared to existing viewfinders.
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Certainly would be interesting if the Red VF could be adapted to the Varicam or F900. Could open up a new market just for the VF alone.
 
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