Red for ENG/EFP USE

jeffry alan said:
What is an 'intuitive focus assist'?
Click to expand...

Intuitive is simply a term I included to describe an important property of any feature of a camera system – that its use be intuitive, in other words that it is simple to use, fast to use, straightforward, and you can adapt naturally to its use.

jeffry alan said:
Why is a histogram preferable to auto exposure? (I rely heavily on the programmed exposure modes -shutter, aperture, and full auto- when I am recording bowhunting situations, where I have to follow a moving animal going in and out of sunlight usually at dawn or dusk, and immediately pan to a guy 3 feet from me).
I have manually adjusted exposure but it is a glaring distraction in a continuous shot and looks sloppy since it is not instantaneous, and I have racked focus, but it is nowhere near as fast as autofocus.
Click to expand...

The shooting you describe has its own set of challenges: rapid pans, constant focus changes, and continual exposure adjustments. Though I don’t specifically shoot hunting programs, I’ve watched a lot of them on networks I do work for (ESPN, Versus, etc.). I’ve shot hundreds of programs with similar challenges (action sports, adventure travel, etc.). First off, let me say this: if hunting programs like you describe are the sole reason you reserved a RED One camera, and you will never produce programming in other styles (digital cinema, other EFP, etc.) or genres (documentaries, commercials, etc.), then the reality is that RED One may not be the best camera choice for your productions. RED One should be an extremely flexible camera system, capable of shooting scores of different genres and sub genres with the major categories of DC, EFP, and ENG. That said, being a fully manual camera system, it won’t be a perfect fit for some sub genres of production – like yours. You’re not going to have auto iris or auto focus with RED one, so you have two choices if you choose to use RED One for your hunting shows:

1)Learn how to use the histogram and focus assist on RED one effectively and rapidly. You’ll also need the optional EVF for your style of shooting. A manual camera, even with a histogram and focus assist, will simply not be as fast to operate as an auto camera in your genre of shooting. In a recent post on another thread I gave my breakdown of techniques for manual camera exposure and focusing in mobile EFP and ENG environments.

2)Don’t use your RED One for those particular shows, and instead use a camera system with the auto features you want.

I can’t be any more direct than that – RED One will be unbelievably flexible and capable, but it won’t be an absolutely perfect choice for every single sub genre of EFP and ENG.

My reference to a histogram being preferable to auto exposure is a broad reference to the multiple style of shooting that will be enabled by RED One – DC, EFP, ENG. A histogram will enable the precise adjustment of exposure necessary for DC applications and most EFP and ENG applications. It gives you a lot more info than a zebra, much more fine-tuning adjustment capability, and if it is viewable in the periphery of the EVF and LCD, you can work quite fast with a histogram. All this said, a histogram may not be the fastest or best choice of exposure control for a few sub genres of shooting – and your hunting shows are one of those genres.

Most professional DSLRs have histograms. If you haven’t used histograms before, here is a link to a simple explanation of histograms and their use: http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/guides/digital/histogram_101/index.html


jeffry alan said:
how fast can I change shutter speed? Is it a menu item or can I toggle it like on the H1?
Click to expand...

Only the RED development team can answer that. They’re due to release the finalized specifications for RED One in the relatively near future, so at the latest you’ll know the answer to that question then. Hopefully it will be via toggle, rather then menu. I was recently DP for series covering professional golf and we used the XLH1 for mobile shooting. I appreciated having often-used camera control features available via toggle on the XLH1.

I hope this info helps you Alan. Even if a manual RED One isn’t perfect for your hunting programs, you should seriously think about spreading your production offerings out to some of the many other genres and sub genres that RED One will excel at. Since you like outdoor shooting, RED One should be exceptional at production of outdoor-oriented commercials, travel, nature, stock footage, hospitality industry, etc.
 
Thanks again Steve,

I am always looking for better tools, and RED looks like a good addition, but obviously not a replacement for the EFP work that I do.

I am anticipating the features that have been described such as focus assist but since there are no comparisons out there so I will have to wait to see what the heck that will be and then test it out.

Thanks for the link but I have worked with histograms for years during post production and with my DSLR (as a static reference only), but I assume it will be a dynamic graph always moving with the image, and unless it is large enough to use without blocking the image I think it would become awkward in live action situations. Tweaking the image in post is one thing, tweaking it while acquiring it is many times is not an option. Correct me if I am wrong, (and I don't doubt that someone will), but there are fundamentally only two ways to adjust the exposure on a camera- aperture and shutter- (and on DSLR's you have the equivalent of film speed which I doubt the RED will have), so no matter how precise the histogram is, you either add or subtract light coming to the sensor with the iris or the shutter, that's it. A histogram in itself doesn't do anything, but your eyes (and the EVF) will help to decide what to alter.
Personally I probably wouldn't even use the histogram if it is going to obscure any of the image, I want to see as much of the image as possible, keep the exposure in an acceptable range, and tweak it in post. I know that on DSLR's the histogram is an imprecise meter of a preferred jpg and not a true scale of the actual information gathered, even when splitting the channels to RGB. (If you need a link to support, I can try to find it).

J*
 
Last edited:
Yeah, RED hasn't released the particulars of their focus assist, but they have said they feel it will be very effective.

As for the histogram, I didn't know if you were familiar with them, thus the info, link, etc. I believe RED has stated somewhere along the line that the info displayed in the EVF and LCD will be placed outside of the framed 16x9 image. True, in rapid motion and rapidly variable light (sun to shade) using a histogram will be a challenge. Perhaps part of the solution would be to shoot in an average light for the conditions, in REDCODE RAW, then "develop" the fine-tuned exposure in post. For your shows that would probably be 2k acquisition. 2K REDCODE RAW will shoot 1-60fps, so you could get a nice fast frame rate (60fps). If you're using the RED 18-85 zoom in 2k Windowed mode the crop factor of the 2k window would extend the lens to a fairly usable focal length for wildlife shooting. If you needed an even longer focal length, and didn't need to pan to guys close to you, you could also combine the zoom and windowed mode and up with a doubler between the body and lens for maximum focal length - of course you'd be losing a few f stops in the process.

Outdoor Channel now has a dedicated HD channel for your type of programming (Outdoor Channel 2HD), so they would be a good target for your HD hunting programs, then if you're self-syndicating you could also make SD masters and dub masters and place your shows on other networks. Link: http://www.outdoorchannel.com/index.cfm?site=2
 
Last edited:
this is a great thread for anyone interested in operating RED solo

maybe the discussion is better served by discussing CREWED vs SOLE OPERATOR????

No matter the genre or style of shooting, to me the biggest difference will be whether I am shooting it myself or if I have a crew to assist (focus puller, camera operator etc) - much of the time I'll be on my own.

I've recently shot a couple of jobs solo with the XDCAM HD. I operate using manual apeture and focus 99% of the time. However of the great things with this camera is the built in ND filters. This allows me to quickly adjust the ND and then the aperture to manipulate the depth of field - at the same location in the same scene sometimes I want a shallow depth of field and sometimes I want it deep (large).

I thought Doc's comment described what is going to be one of the biggest challenges when using RED solo

"Actually for me - no ND filter on board - will be the tricky part of the RED while working in EFP. Manual focus and iris I'm accustomed to, but changing filters on the fly is a whole different ball of wax."

How are those of you who will be sole operators planning to deal with this??
 
jeffry alan said:
Correct me if I am wrong, (and I don't doubt that someone will), but there are fundamentally only two ways to adjust the exposure on a camera- aperture and shutter- (and on DSLR's you have the equivalent of film speed which I doubt the RED will have), so no matter how precise the histogram is, you either add or subtract light coming to the sensor with the iris or the shutter, that's it.
Click to expand...

Nalu made me realize that an ND filter is another way to adjust exposure. I stand corrected (by myself).

The ultimate solution (in the future) would be to have an awesome camera like the RED that communicated with and controlled the lenses, like the DSLR lenses that have been out for years or the HD lens on the XL H1.

J*
 
Last edited:
An ND filter is changing the aperture by allowing less light through to the sensor, so it could be considered an alternate way of changing aperture. ND filters are an option with RED One, but they would need to be drop in filters for a matte box, or screw on filters for a lens barrel - not as quick as flipping a switch, but drop in filters can be changed quickly.
 
ah great - I've never had to change matte box filters on-the-fly as a sole operator so it's good to hear that you think this is workable and relatively easy

I was concerned about this, as every little thing/job/convience makes a diiference when you are shooting solo - so much to think about - getting the picture looking good is just one of them!
 
We used ND's on the Red camera to modify the exposure during the CML/Stump tests, to go past F22, the physical limitation of the Cooke used.
I dropped in a .3, .6, .9 and a 1.2 at F19 and F22 so Dave Stump could accurately shoot more than 8 stops of the lens.

As well, the 300mm Red lens has a special slot for round filters, and as Gibby explains, you can use ND's in many different configurations on the Red camera.
 
I don't think the histogram method for manual exposure control is going to be a workable solution for single-operator shooting (as in reality, documentary, news) when rapid and accurate exposure changes are necessary.

There is simply no way this otherwise well-conceived and dead-accurate method can compete speedwise with a momentary auto iris button (like those found on many Fujinon and Canon lenses).

Hit the momentary switch while pointing at a neutrally lit area within your frame and you've got a balanced exposure that you can then fine tune with the manual iris with more subtlety.

As an illustrative example, think about changing your filter wheel while focusing on the move. It is a clunky proposition at best, yet we all have to do it regularly.

Having an ND selector allows for gross adjustments at best - and regretably, the more options you have, the more difficult it is for an operator to select the right one when his eye is in the viewfinder.

Unless there is an indicator of current stop and ND filter selection and so-on electronically represented within the viewfinder itself... but even then, I don't know.

I won't speak for all operators who do the work I do, but to have to make exposure decisions on the run using a histogram is almost as bad as having to interpret a scope while doing the same. I know where it is supposed to be, but rapidly hitting it while walking, framing and focusing is another matter.

Too many operating parameters and next thing you know you've walked through a take without even activating the camera!

Again, this critique is for a very narrow work subset, but within this thread I think it stands to reason.

e
 
some good points overland

I think it's going to be a case of getting used to the specific camera i.e. RED and just working out what is possible on-the-fly as a sole operator. Learn the possibilities, the limitations and make judgement calls as you work.

The sort of unpredictable shooting conditions we're beginning to talk about requires you to make it up as you go. Once we have enough time on RED we'll know what's possible and what are the logical adjustments to make on-the-fly.

These threads are great in my opinion as it serves as a constant reminder to the RED team of our needs, opinions and objectives.
Not that I think RED will forget the sole operator but there's nothing like being front of mind when the guys are working and brainstorming the development of features.

It's kinda of like lobby groups and politics as policy is being developed.:thumbup:
 
Keeping the camera body to the barest minimum design essentials, thereby making the accessories bring multi-functionality to the greater platform, will assure that RED One isn't one of those unfortunate compromise-laden items that does many things not very well.

Focus on the core digital cinema market and allow the accessories to make it feasible to do the rest.

e
 
I shoot a lot of the same genre stuff as you Overland (reality, documentary, sports, etc.), and I think you made some good observations on histogram use. Hopefully RED's histogram will be optimized for fast use. In my mind, for these genres, a logical workaround is to shoot in 2k REDCODE RAW (1 to 60fps), and using the histogram, set aperture for the average lighting of what you're shooting, and then optimize the exposure of the REDCODE RAW footage with REDCINE in post. Once the final specs on the camera are released, and the assembled test cameras are be being used, we should get a clear picture of what the parameters of EFP and ENG field usage are for RED One - and from that be able to extrapolate field possibilities for sub genres of production.
 
Last edited:
We used ND's on the Red camera to modify the exposure during the CML/Stump tests, to go past F22, the physical limitation of the Cooke used.
I dropped in a .3, .6, .9 and a 1.2 at F19 and F22 so Dave Stump could accurately shoot more than 8 stops of the lens.

As well, the 300mm Red lens has a special slot for round filters, and as Gibby explains, you can use ND's in many different configurations on the Red camera.
__________________
Click to expand...

Jarrad, Will the 300mm red prime have macro facility. I know it is unlikely (otherwise it would have been mentioned) but i would still like it confirmed one way or the other. With all the talk of sensor dust the less changing of lenses the better (in certain circumstances i would imagine).

As someone likely to be working solo for specific footage and the fact that equipping red with all the "other essentials" will quickly mount up cost wise will the filters required for the red prime be capable of being used also with the red zoom?

One other little niggling thing i am not 100% certain about but would greatly appreciate an accurate answer is: With the red one the COC will be set at whatever it is for the s35mm sensor right. The DOF for that sensor with the appropriate lenses will be able to be defined.

Will the COC change when you go from full sensor to windowed mode 2k. Does the use of part of the sensor alter the COC which results in greater DOF (all things being equal) In other words will the DOF in say windowed 2k be the exact same as the DOF of a s16mm sensor camera with s16mm appropriate lens.

This thread has given out great insights and information which i have found so helpful. You guys are just brilliant, really such wisdom and knowledge given so freely in an age of selfishness is so liberating:dankk2:

Michael
 
as far as setting an average f-stop for the shot and doing exposure fine tuning in redcine, will it be possible to do gain ramping, or essentially key frame the exposure over the course of a shot within redcine? i could see this as being a very useful (but advanced) feature of redcine especially since the mysterium is so low noise. ramping from 100iso to 400iso over the course of a shot probably wouldn't be noticed by the average viewer. if this is not in the plans i'm putting this in as a request.
 
mike the beginner said:
One other little niggling thing i am not 100% certain about but would greatly appreciate an accurate answer is: With the red one the COC will be set at whatever it is for the s35mm sensor right. The DOF for that sensor with the appropriate lenses will be able to be defined.
Click to expand...

Hi,

I think you will find the DOF on a digital sensor is less than for S35mm. There was a thread on CML about the Genesis. A sensor is totally flat, film being curved probably explains the difference.

Stephen
 
Interesting discussion in here.

I'm glad DCP was bought to the table. That's what this camera is best suited to IMO.

It's just not simple and fast enough for ENG. Eng is like driving a car. It just has to work simple and get you there. I can jump in almost any car and drive it. Just as I can pick up any ENG camera can use it blindly to get good material that counts.

RED is also too far advanced for a lot of today's general EFP world. it's also good for other parts. For Documentary work, and other slow paced stuff where quality is they key, then it'll be a great tool.
However for "Television" EFP production it's by far not the best choice. It's no good in multicamera environments (see the other thread about switching/mixing RED camera). And it's far too advanced to be flexible and realistic in today's world. Take the lack of Composite output, or perhaps full sized (=easy, ready to go) connectors for stuff like XLRs.

RED ONE will be a D-cinema camera, not a Television Camera.


- Mikko ... has heard of many many film producers & rental houses who have REDs reserved, but is curious how many TV stations have a reservation.
 
Mikko makes good points - points we've all been making without saying what he said in the end. There are some brilliant 1080 and 720 2/3" form-factor cameras already on the market.

Asking RED One to fill every niche is asking RED to compromise its core market, and that's not good for anyone.

e
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top