Red for ENG/EFP USE

penfever said:
This is very educational indeed...I'm learning that internet forums are a place where people get angry and yell at each other over an electronic void.
That said, if EFP stands for Electronic Field Production and I call it Eggs, Fries and Pancakes, it's not just "a different opinion". But I know nothing about EFP or ENG, so it's all news to me anyhow.
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That said and with the due respect, it seems your first part is coming from another post than the second one... :)

Beyond any inaccuracy there is a point or more than one, so valid like the accurate info also posted and stand corrected for others later. This is a community and if sometimes it seems a school/college/university these boards aren't an examination test over what one or other poster have been saying. And in this case, I feel free of posting this 'cause one of my jobs (at the real life) is precisely doing examination tests @such_places. Otherwise, I'm not "the" poster(s)/target but I could learn something with such inaccurate information...
 
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overlandfilms said:
With respect to RED, it is actually and ironically better set up for EFP than ENG out of the gate, with its studio use stylings (e.g., separated monitor, menu functions at rear, capacity for external CCU-style control).
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The lack of CCU control is what makes RED ONE bad for EFP

overlandfilms said:
To say we're all entitled to opinion does a dis-service to people who come to the forum to learn. They're entitled to get good and accurate information.
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In my opinion RED ONE would be better suited to ENG out of the box because of that lack of CCU control.

Whilst Forums are a place to learn they are also subjective and allow for debate, that is their purpose. Forum's are not definitive guides to learning although in the same breath you can learn alot from forums. Opinion and questioning is paramount to the success of any forum otherwise you might as well read Wikipedia or similar if all you want are answers.
 
Agreed on the CCU thoughts - it's Ari's SI camera that has those functionalities roughly separated (through IRIDAS), not RED (at least to date).

I also see your point on opinion versus facts within a forum environment. However, my take on this is that we working professionals have an obligation to those coming up through the business to keep our technical facts straight - don't send a young, fresh newcomer to his first day on set thinking a mambo-combo is a clothespin. While funny... it's not terribly nice.

Keep matters of opinion limited to important subjects like: why did New Line and Peter Jackson go their separate ways?

e
 
overlandfilms said:
I also see your point on opinion versus facts within a forum environment. However, my take on this is that we working professionals have an obligation to those coming up through the business to keep our technical facts straight - don't send a young, fresh newcomer to his first day on set thinking a mambo-combo is a clothespin. While funny... it's not terribly nice.

Keep matters of opinion limited to important subjects like: why did New Line and Peter Jackson go their separate ways?

e
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Understood. Even if not easily acceptable (and just apparently), I stand both points. 'cause sometimes beyond an inaccuracy there is a wise thought and useful as well. That is also the difference between the formal education and the informal knowledge method like the internet really is.
 
Jannard said:
The ONLY exceptions are zoom control and auto-aperture. But we promise a magical focus assist and a histogram that is much more reliable than auto-exposure.
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Auto-aperture certainly wouldn’t be necessary with a fast and accurate focus assist and histogram in the periphery of the EVF and/or LCD presentation. ENG/EFP pros are very used to manual focus/manual iris field operations. The question I have is concerning zoom control. On 10/30 Stuart posted here a verification that (as of that date) RED intended to include 12-volt auxiliary power output:

"Plus yes to 12V aux power output."
Link: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=76365&page=2 (Post #16)

If this makes the final spec for RED One it will enable onboard power to a wide range of accessories, including powering the servo zoom motors of zoom lenses via a simple adapter cable running from the RED One 12-volt auxiliary power output bus to the multi-pin power bus on zoom lenses. 12-volt power available onboard would also enable easy use of a plethora of powered accessories on RED One for both cine-style and ENG/EFP style production with RED One.
 
ENG or EFP or Digital Cinema

ENG or EFP or Digital Cinema

I've been holding off on posting a glossary of terms, but maybe its time; not because definitions are wrong, but rather having a definition will aid the discussion.

ENG Electronic News Gathering ..... Local and National news. Issues - get the shot, get it back to the studio.

EFP Electronic Field Production ..... Interviews, documentaries, commercials, events. Issues - maximum operational flexibility, portability, economy, quality.

DCP Digital Cinema Production ....... 24fps base storytelling. Issues - cover all aspects of cinematic storytelling, 35mm DOF, latitude, lots of accessories.

Can we adopt these in our discussions? The main point being lets not mix up EFP and ENG, most often the applications being described are EFP.

Fact is RED_ONE can operate in all three of these applications. Its suitability for the Digital Cinema application is obvious. And with the available RED-FLASH solid state magazines and wavelet proxy file extraction, it has the fundamental technology to suite ENG too, but the reality is the Electronic News Gathering market is driven by long term business relationships and there are existing products such as the DVCPRO series and XDCAM installed in that application. However, the EFP market is not driven by those kinds of contracts and although "ENG like" in its accessory requirements the camera performance requirements in EFP are much higher.

Thats why our focus is on delivering the highest quality and operational flexibility for Digital Cinema and EFP applications, plus satisfying broadcast oriented ENG customers that wish to adopt our unique workflow.
 
Thank you Stuart. I do not do film production, but tons of Doc, reality, and the like. I plan to (at first) use red one to post in DVCPRO HD(1080p?). I imagine it will be like a varicam on sterioids and look magnificent on any HDTV.

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Thanks for that post Stuart. Those of us that work professionally in all three (DCP, EFP, and ENG) look forward to RED One and REDCINE for exactly the factors you enumerated.

I think some of the confusion in fieldwork terms stems from there being progressively more gray area as multiple techniques are used on many productions. For example, many of the broadcast and cable network productions I produce, direct, or shoot are non-hardlined, using small, mobile crews to shoot everything from highly cinematic b-roll (DCP) to quick interviews (ENG style), to extensive documentary and lifestyle shooting (EFP) - all in the same program, using camera systems that are re-accessorized quickly for each shooting style. Thus these programs have elements of DCP, ENG, and EFP in camera work style. Many who post here, including myself, have made a distinction between ENG and ENG-style, one being specifically electronic news gathering, and the other being shot in an ENG-style, but definitely not broadcast as ENG. Examples: run n' gun, non-hardlined alternative sports, reality, some documentaries, etc. The shooting style is not EFP, but rather ENG-style. The shows are then edited in post.

More confusion arises from sources like Wikipedia categorizing EFP as strictly hardlined production - thus some people have coined the term EFP-style to connote the increased quality of EFP, differentiate it from ENG, and attempt to describe their production gray area between the terms.

In view of all this confusion, I've recently been using cine-style and ENG/EFP style as two terms of differentiation, but I'm quite comfortable with your splitting it out into three categories: DCP, EFP, and ENG. Most of my projects produced using RED One and REDCINE will use all three styles in the field shooting, and thus have all three styles edited into the project.

Again…thanks for your input! I perceived RED One to be a flexible “all style” camera system when the camera was first announced, and your post supports that notion nicely.
 
I think the issue may be with the slightly fuzzy boundary between ENG and EFP, where people refer to 'run-and-gun' documentary production as 'ENG style'. Although the definition of ENG is in the name (if it's not news it's not ENG) a lot of documentary and corporate productions involve shooting of actuality, where you need to get the shot as it happens, with no posibility for complex setups or re-takes.

As has been said before in this thread, this historically used to be done on film, so there is no reason a skilled operator could not do the same with a Red. Those who are used to relying on auto iris (and even auto focus if they currently use pro-sumer cameras) will have to learn a new way of working with the Red, but it seems will be given all the necessary tools to help them do so.

Nick

EDIT:
Gibby appears to have covered some of my points already, and he posted before I did!
 
Actually for me - no ND filter on board - will be the tricky part of the RED while working in EFP. Manual focus and iris I'm accustomed to, but changing filters on the fly is a whole different ball of wax.

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Gibby and I usually seem to swim in the same waters - I agree with his observations on the ever more blurred lines between the three disparate formats.

To a newcomer in any of the trades, it might seem that we are mincing words, but when dialoging directly with a development team on an important emerging camera platform, semantics definitely matter!

In the vast (and rapidly growing) docu-reality, scripted reality and derivative markets, ENG, EFP and Digital Cinema disciplines are indeed closely interwoven within the final product.

For example, we commonly produce a hometown package on our talent - mixing documentary and cinema-caliber HD images of landscapes in 24 frame slow-mo and timelapse, staged interviews on practical locations, traveling studio set-ups with hosts or other talent et-cetera.

The advent of CineAlta and VariCam HD cameras allows the same cinematographer who might have at one time only shot interviews to go out and get stunning footage for b-roll where stock footage might have been used before.

On the last show I did, I was a jib operator in a multi-camera iso-recorded switched EFP location-cum-studio environment, then broke out of the main room to conduct intimate locked-off two camera interviews in tiny rooms with a full Kino and Chimera grid overhead and backdrops on c-stands.

The next day, we were in the field, doing what could only be described as ENG - unscripted, unrepeatable and rapid single-camera reality work with a double-system sound engineer and a producer.

It's no wonder RED feels the need to invent a camera that spans across many uses through modularity. If we can only figure out what we're shooting next...

e
 
Overland,

Nice summary...I definitely agree!

As for: "If we can only figure out what we're shooting next...", I'd say "Anything we want - and its about time we had that freedom".
 
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mmm.. i can see how you guys are blurring the lines.

Panasonic had a big push about this.. they called it CineSwitch, where you go from Dramatic, scripted style shooting to ENG-type shooting.

interesting.
 
Definitely interesting...

When I function as a judge for the National Emmy Awards each year, including the National Sports Emmy Awards in New York, the shows that impress me the most are ones that show the added dimension and complexity to have shot and edited in all three styles: DCP, EFP, and ENG. Granted, some genres call for just one kind of field production style, but an ever-increasing number of series and one-off programs can deeply benefit from incorporating all three styles, and gray-area combinations thereof, into their edited product, thus a camera system that is flexible enough to quickly and effectively satisfy those requirements is like gold. Also, having been a career-long editor, when I produce, my constant challenge is to find editors who can effectively edit in all those styles in the body of a program.

As Bob Dylan once sang: "The times they are a changing..."
 
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I agree with Jarred: here is an interesting discussion. A best sample of the internet use and what this medium can offer to any reader. Nice post overland and fine point too.
 
Jannard said:
But we promise a magical focus assist and a histogram that is much more reliable than auto-exposure.

Jim
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Jim, is the focus assist and histogram combo a replacement for auto exposure, or an alternative that still requires manual manipulation of the lens?

J*
 
I'm not Jim, but I'm sure his reply will be that it is an alternative that still requires manual manipulation of the lens. A real intuitive focus assist, high resolution EVF and/or LCD, and a easy-to-read histogram in the periphery of the EVF and/or LCD is much preferable to auto-exposure, and can function nearly as fast in a shooting environment. You will still need to manually change exposure settings. RED One will be a fully manual camera, excepting the possibility of using powered accessories if 12-volt auxiliary power is included in the camera.

Hope this helps...
 
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but an ever-increasing number of series and one-off programs can deeply benefit from incorporating all three styles, and gray-area combinations thereof, into their edited product, thus a camera system that is flexible enough to quickly and effectively satisfy those requirements is like gold. Also, having been a career-long editor, when I produce, my constant challenge is to find editors who can effectively edit in all those styles in the body of a program.

As Bob Dylan once sang: "The times they are a changing..."__________________
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Love the replies and comments great imput from everyone:dankk2:

Steve that paragraph sums it up for me exactly. The ability of red one to deliver such a camera is as you nicely put it is like gold. I just hope a combination of s35 and windowed mode 2k can be easiliy combined in the one project and easiliy done in post would be fantastic. Hopefully Graeme will get those magic pixies of his to perform this as well as the focus assist. I am a little concerned though with the method of operating the red in windowed mode since none of the red team have commented. Will red be capable of doing this by the flick of a switch? i hope so.

PS: your last line i had to repeat Dylan "The times are a changing" :)

Michael
 
35 to S16 switch / ENG or EFP ?

35 to S16 switch / ENG or EFP ?

There is nothing inherently difficult in allowing even a clip-by-clip switch between 35mm Academy and a S16mm area of the sensor - just not within a single clip :).

And in my definition, "single-camera reality work with a double-system sound engineer and a producer" would not be ENG, I'd consider that a mainstream EFP application. Hence the value in this terminology discussion, as people can easily make assumptions about needs or feature sets from these abbreviations.
 
Gibby said:
.... A real intuitive focus assist, high resolution EVF and/or LCD, and a easy-to-read histogram in the periphery of the EVF and/or LCD is much preferable to auto-exposure, and can function nearly as fast in a shooting environment. You will still need to manually change exposure settings.
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A couple of questions;

-What is an 'intuitive focus assist'?

-Why is a histogram preferable to auto exposure? (I rely heavily on the programmed exposure modes -shutter, aperture, and full auto- when I am recording bowhunting situations, where I have to follow a moving animal going in and out of sunlight usually at dawn or dusk, and immediately pan to a guy 3 feet from me).
I have manually adjusted exposure but it is a glaring distraction in a continuous shot and looks sloppy since it is not instantaneous, and I have racked focus, but it is nowhere near as fast as autofocus.

-how fast can I change shutter speed? Is it a menu item or can I toggle it like on the H1?


J*
 
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