Re: Sony A7RII - FIRST video sample!!!

[dfreerider]

And Sony always sounds like S35 is the way to go with this one. Bummer. It's a bit too expensive for an APS-C camera. a7000 where are you???

Yes, Sony showed off a chart illustrating that only 4K S35 is non pixel-binned. All other formats such as 1080P S35, 1080P FF, and 4K FF is using some sort of pixel binning. So unless you shoot only S35 4K, the A7s will probably have better quality. Still, we have to wait for real life tests to show up.

 

[wallrc]

And Sony always sounds like S35 is the way to go with this one. Bummer. It's a bit too expensive for an APS-C camera. a7000 where are you???

I agree - it seems like if you're shooting video with this camera, you're shooting in s35 mode exclusively. Unfortunately it looks like 1080 mode is also lineskipping in either s35 or FF, which is unfortunate. If they would introduce a s35 only camera that had the same s35 quality as this in 4k (and maybe 1080 non-skipping) with a lower MP, it would sell a bunch - personally I'd rather use a s35 with a speedbooster to get that look - it turns all sorts of inexpensive lenses (canon 24-105 4 into 2.8) into really useful speeds.

 

[Reality Studio]

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but the A7R2 *finally* lets you set a minimum shutter speed when using auto iso mode for photography. This is something I wish my A7S had because the A7S seems to favor iso above all else and will go down to 1/60th shutter sometimes. Personally I do not have a steady hand and need 1/165 minimum to get clear pics, so it's nice to see them finally add this feature as I like to manually set aperture and leave iso on auto for my photography. Hopefully they add this to the A7S as well in a firmware update or release the A7S Mark 2 soon, preferably the latter.

 

[DLD]

I agree - it seems like if you're shooting video with this camera, you're shooting in s35 mode exclusively. Unfortunately it looks like 1080 mode is also lineskipping in either s35 or FF, which is unfortunate. If they would introduce a s35 only camera that had the same s35 quality as this in 4k (and maybe 1080 non-skipping) with a lower MP, it would sell a bunch - personally I'd rather use a s35 with a speedbooster to get that look - it turns all sorts of inexpensive lenses (canon 24-105 4 into 2.8) into really useful speeds.

Given that the 4K file size is very modest - unfortunately - one may as well shoot (mostly) everything in s35 4K and then downscale it to 1080p in post.

 

[cpc]

Not sure if anyone else noticed, but the A7R2 *finally* lets you set a minimum shutter speed when using auto iso mode for photography. This is something I wish my A7S had because the A7S seems to favor iso above all else and will go down to 1/60th shutter sometimes. Personally I do not have a steady hand and need 1/165 minimum to get clear pics, so it's nice to see them finally add this feature as I like to manually set aperture and leave iso on auto for my photography. Hopefully they add this to the A7S as well in a firmware update or release the A7S Mark 2 soon, preferably the latter.

Don't hold your breath. Sony don't have a record of updating stuff. It is actually a small miracle they added xavc-s to the a6000. People have been asking for the minimum shutter speed feature with auto ISO since the first NEX cameras appeared. It is on pretty much every camera out there, except on Sony cameras. I myself have explicitly asked for this through their online channels. For all their inventions and breakthroughs, Sony often make inadequate usability decisions. It is no coincidence users say "Sony people don't shoot their own cameras".

 

[paulcurtis]

I've noticed that

a) There's a presentation slide that compares A7s and this A7rII, the A7rII only reads full sensor in S35 4K mode, not in any other mode, not even S35 HD. It reads twice as much and down samples to 4K, this would probably give an amazing image in S35.

b) There is no OLPF, so the idea of line skipping in FF means that perhaps aliasing could be a problem, we'll have to wait to see source footage i guess.

c) The output is only 422 8Bit over HDMI, internally it's always 420 8 bit.

d) The IBIS should sort out most jello and micro movements, that's the biggest single problem with the A7s. It appears to have a very fast readout in S35 meaning very little rolling shutter. No idea about FF but if it's skipping and reading basically the same kind of data just over the full frame perhaps the rolling shutter is minimised there.

Overall it's an amazing looking camera, but to upgrade from an A7s? I'm not 100% there yet.

It's a case of how long would the A7sII be? With IBIS and internal recording i'd upgrade in a heartbeat

cheers
Paul

 

[DLD]

I've noticed that

a) There's a presentation slide that compares A7s and this A7rII, the A7rII only reads full sensor in S35 4K mode, not in any other mode, not even S35 HD. It reads twice as much and down samples to 4K, this would probably give an amazing image in S35....

cheers
Paul

Sony says 15 MPX-to-8.3 in s35 mode. But that 100 Mbps bit rate makes you want to wait and see ... and compare to what one might get on the external recorder.

 

[Reality Studio]

Overall it's an amazing looking camera, but to upgrade from an A7s? I'm not 100% there yet.

It's a case of how long would the A7sII be? With IBIS and internal recording i'd upgrade in a heartbeat

I'm in the same boat, decided I'll wait for the A7SII. I figure with a far lower pixel count, the A7SII with the similar faster sensor read speed of the A7RII means it should do full frame 4k video with no pixel binning. And assuming they borrow the rest of the A7RII's new features means the A7SII will be quite an incredible camera. Not to knock the A7RII as it seems awesome really, but at the end of the day I do far more video work that photography and I don't really need 42mp for my photography anyways so I'll wait it out.

 

[Luis De La Cerda]

Pixel binning is not the same as line skipping.

 

[Samuel H]

It is not. But Sony seems to say "pixel binning" when they mean "line skipping". Odd.

 

[Doctor Wu]

Well I'm glad the C100 was back-ordered for two weeks. I would not have been able to return it to BH. I'll trade off the ND filters and 24 Mbs of the C100 for 100 Mbs XAVC 4K and Slog2 of the A7RII anytime.

 

[ectobuilder]

And Sony always sounds like S35 is the way to go with this one. Bummer. It's a bit too expensive for an APS-C camera. a7000 where are you???

Every Axxxx camera to date has had overheating issues. I don't think the upcoming A7000 would be any different.

 

[paulcurtis]

It is not. But Sony seems to say "pixel binning" when they mean "line skipping". Odd.

In that interview with one of the designers they state that the sensor has lots of A/D convertors on the back of the sensor now, each one dealing with 4 pixels, so perhaps that's the binning that's being referred too. The advantage of that new design is a read out 4 to 5 times faster than before. There's even DRAM on the back of the sensor. Perhaps for full readout they're binning sets of those 4 pixels, like 16 a go and binning that on the sensor creating a super binned pixel. There would be some math involved to deal with the bayer greyscale amounts but i can see some kind of binning solution there.

But personally the A7sII i would hope has IBIS, same resolution, but better access to the full sensor. The video vs stills output is quite different - you cannot get the range of the camera through prores and slog, even externally. The resulting image seems 'thin' compared to the raw stills. Also the noise is quite different too. So if on the A7s II they worked on the image quality - 10 bit Slog3 for example - that would be a good way to segment the market and a much better result for us video-heads...

Wishful thinking perhaps, but you never know. Sony have pulled some amazing things out of the bag so far...

cheers
Paul

 

[Samuel H]

Every Axxxx camera to date has had overheating issues. I don't think the upcoming A7000 would be any different.

I thought the a5100 and a6000 were free of overheating issues. In any case, yes, I would expect a new model shooting 4K would have at least some overheating, maybe a lot of it if it's the reason for the a7000 delay. But really, overheating never bothered me: I rarely take shots more than a minute long. (in the project I'm editing right now I have 285 takes, 229 of which are 20 seconds or less; the longest one is 1:30, the next one is 1:02)

In that interview with one of the designers they state that the sensor has lots of A/D convertors on the back of the sensor now, each one dealing with 4 pixels, so perhaps that's the binning that's being referred too. The advantage of that new design is a read out 4 to 5 times faster than before. There's even DRAM on the back of the sensor.

When he says all that stuff, he's talking about the 1" sensor in the RX10 II and RX100 IV, which are stacked CMOS sensors. The a7R II sensor is BSI but not stacked, the circuitry is behind the phosotites, but it's very basic circuitry, just a few transistors to move the analogue charges around. The ADCs are probably on the edges of the sensor, and there is probably a not-so-great amount of them in the chip (I mean: there must be a lot of them, just not as many as in the 1" sensor, which has an insane amount of ADCs)

 

[DLD]

Question to those with more tech knowledge than me ... which is pretty much everyone here - is it possible for a manufacturer to upgrade its either external or internal color depth recording to 10-bit from 8-bit via firmware?

Os is this pretty much a non-issue once a given camera is released?

The reason I am asking is because I have a feeling that this model has a lot of "spare" processing power that Sony intentionally kept in reserve, conceivably to protect a future A99 MK II or for other products down the road.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Question to those with more tech knowledge than me ... which is pretty much everyone here - is it possible for a manufacturer to upgrade its either external or internal color depth recording to 10-bit from 8-bit via firmware?

Os is this pretty much a non-issue once a given camera is released?

The reason I am asking is because I have a feeling that this model has a lot of "spare" processing power that Sony intentionally kept in reserve, conceivably to protect a future A99 MK II or for other products down the road.

That is largely a hardware issue.

 

[Paul schefz]

Question to those with more tech knowledge than me ... which is pretty much everyone here - is it possible for a manufacturer to upgrade its either external or internal color depth recording to 10-bit from 8-bit via firmware?

Os is this pretty much a non-issue once a given camera is released?

The reason I am asking is because I have a feeling that this model has a lot of "spare" processing power that Sony intentionally kept in reserve, conceivably to protect a future A99 MK II or for other products down the road.

what makes you think this has spare processing power? sony is putting everything and the kitchen sink into this....
find the discussions about binning and or line skipping funny....sony gives us an option here, FF or s35, take you pick....
this is not the alexa (and not only because this one actually does 4K)....but it is pretty much everything that is possible RIGHT NOW.....the A7sII will probably have a pixel count optimized for internal 4K video, maybe higher DR and probably better low light but the key is that sony is not holding back on any level here....
they probably can't do internal 10 bit and if they could they probably would....with Canon you have to go all the way up to the C300II to get 10bit....
i can't wait to see how the AF will work for video....and when we will see all this in the next FS8/FS75/....

 

[DLD]

what makes you think this has spare processing power?...

GH4 is a far more affordable year old model, with a worse rolling shutter and it still puts out 10-bit via HDMI. So, regardless of whether A7R MK II has "spare power" - and I doubt any computer maxes out at anything but the extreme conditions - it should have enough for 10-bit 4:2:2 with what it already has.

It should also have the DCI 4K and not just the UHD.

And a higher internal bit rate recording.

 

[Paul schefz]

GH4 is a far more affordable year old model, with a worse rolling shutter and it still puts out 10-bit via HDMI. So, regardless of whether A7R MK II has "spare power" - and I doubt any computer maxes out at anything but the extreme conditions - it should have enough for 10-bit 4:2:2 with what it already has.

It should also have the DCI 4K and not just the UHD.

And a higher internal bit rate recording.

i think the camera you are asking for is the FS7.....
and i am not sure how the GH4 10bit files will compare to the 8bit files from the A7rII....just like i doubt anyone will consider the GH4 over a C300 just because it has 10bit vs 8bit....the GH4 has 8? stops DR?
maybe sony will make 4K (vs UHD) happen via firmware upgrade, the FS7 started out as UHD...
anyway: the A7rII is first and foremost a still camera which happens to have pretty incredible motion features....the A7sII will be the motion camera with the pretty incredible still features...but i doubt it will do 10 bit either....

 

[DLD]

i think the camera you are asking for is the FS7...

Sony is entitled to cripple ... I mean, differentiate their own product from one model to another but it is in bad taste, IMO, to underserve the market on the software. I have the same problem with Panasonic and GH4 because it can shoot at 200 Mbps in 1080p but only at 100 Mbps (if that) in 4K. On specs, if not the layout and full functionality, A7R MK II can exceed FS7. Sony chose to detract from own achievements, however. If Ferrari put in a Prius engine into its body, there'd be a major ruckus about its attitude toward its customers but, when a photo/video company does it, no one utters a peep. That's just sad.