GH13 RANT! - Why are Canon HDSLR filmers like Apple junkies?
- Thread starter JackBayer
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plasmasmp
Well-known member
exactly this.
roei z
Veteran
Hebrew translation ?? do i know you terra1 ?
Has the thread starter come back after starting or possibly a S/S,my take is what you create does come first but if cam/dslr quality did not matter the years of tests by mags and camcorderuser etc would not have happened,if canon users can live with with the dreaded M and A fine i cant.
terra1
Well-known member
hebrew translation? regarding the video clip i ment to say... now lets all whistle the music that kicks in (as in lets all get along together) :smile: if that is the part you didn't understand.
i do not believe we are aquatinted roei z
exactly flinty that has been my point, every camera along the road is valid and just.
in general across the net there seems to be some negative feelings towards CANON cameras & users (plus 'APPLE junkies' lol) we shouldn't hate something because its popular or in demand.
as i said earlier 'an artist isn't an artist because he owns a paintbrush' its what he paints with the paintbrush that is important.
arguing over which is better the GH1/2 or the 5DII is like fighting over what type of paintbrush is better, a fat tipped brush or a fine tipped brush :smile:
both great brushes and both give a different effect, i prefer a fat tipped brush personally, there's no wrong or right involved.
ps: can anyone give me directions to the exit of the rabbit hole please :smile:
roei z
Veteran
about the Hebrew, it was weird you chose a youtube clip that was specifically translated to Hebrew.. so i wondered if you speak the language.
and NO- once you stuck your nose into the rabbit hole it's too late
Barry_Green
Moderator
Best. Post. Ever.
bronxjragon
Well-known member
No. This is the best post ever.
Hi!
I didn´t expect any discussion to start off, actually I expected to not even see this thread anywhere near page1. I had no time to even look until just now, as there´s the Munich Film Festival going on, has been for 3 days and I am watching crazy numbers of films.
So if any posts where especially for me, I´ll answer as soon as I find time. But as I just answered to another one via pm I guess my rantiness came from realizing that the 5D/7D hype could cost me jobs, when in the eyes of some producers I would be "...the one with this unknown camera I´ve never heard of...naaa let´s go with the guy with the Canons" ...
Sure, producers don´t need to now specs or anything, but they sure should shut up then and just order great footage and never hire me again, if I couldn´t deliver.
So, no time. must - watch - more - movies!
regards!
@Kholi: wheelchair -> nice!
I didn´t expect any discussion to start off, actually I expected to not even see this thread anywhere near page1. I had no time to even look until just now, as there´s the Munich Film Festival going on, has been for 3 days and I am watching crazy numbers of films.
So if any posts where especially for me, I´ll answer as soon as I find time. But as I just answered to another one via pm I guess my rantiness came from realizing that the 5D/7D hype could cost me jobs, when in the eyes of some producers I would be "...the one with this unknown camera I´ve never heard of...naaa let´s go with the guy with the Canons" ...
Sure, producers don´t need to now specs or anything, but they sure should shut up then and just order great footage and never hire me again, if I couldn´t deliver.
So, no time. must - watch - more - movies!
regards!
@Kholi: wheelchair -> nice!
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
I can name ONE person who has a GH camera locally, that I met through here. I can name probably 20+ people who locally have a Canon camera that they shoot video on. I personally think that Panasonic has done a poor job at marketing their camera. I don't see them for sale ANYWHERE here. Yet, I can walk into probably four stores from a mile where I am at right now and buy a Canon or a Nikon. Not to mention, the exposure Canon has had at the professional level, ie, episode of house or a variety of other things. And this is not me saying that the Canons are better, because they are not. I thought the GH2 shot beautiful footage. That said, the GH cameras have not set a precedence that you can say "Hey, look at this! This was shot with this camera" and Canon does. People look at precedence set by equipment because it's proof positive of results. True, it says nothing of how you got there, but it does show you *can* get there. And I'd say that the 5D being a full frame sensor has helped out ALL the other Canon cameras because it does add capabilities and freedoms for shallow DoF shots that weren't easily obtainable before. It definitely hasn't been the 1D that has driven this.
If you want people to recognize ANY camera for what it can do, then you need to show the results. Words mean little to me when it comes to evaluating equipment to use. You would not believe how many movies and television shows that I go and check what they shot it on. If Panasonic or you wants their DSLR cameras to be recognized more for their capabilities in the video world, then they or you need to help that movement.
If you want people to recognize ANY camera for what it can do, then you need to show the results. Words mean little to me when it comes to evaluating equipment to use. You would not believe how many movies and television shows that I go and check what they shot it on. If Panasonic or you wants their DSLR cameras to be recognized more for their capabilities in the video world, then they or you need to help that movement.
Ben Totman
Active member
absolutely rick, canons marketing strategy has helped them alot. for instance, and im sure some of you have seen it, the commercial for canons HDSLR's, ive seen this during NFL games and other TV programs with high ratings.
Boncrek
Well-known member
+1 to this post.
If it wasn't for places like DVXuser.com I wouldn't have known about the GH series of hybrid cameras.
I know I plan to market myself as being a different type of DSLR shooter than all the others because I will be using the GH2.
Seperatign myself from the crowd as it may.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
As Rick already pointed, GH2 loses in popularity, which is a shame.
Truth be told, I would have opted for a GH2 if it were available when I was camera shopping. But the GH2 has been considerably harder to come by, and out of the dozens of videographers I interact with, I think only one had ever used a GH2 to shoot something.
Heck, I had a conversation with a corporate sales rep at B&H (a personal friend of mine) who wasn't even aware of it being used for pro video.
Panasonic is dropping the ball left and right when it comes to pushing these cameras, and its sad because it seems like quite the decent option. Indeed, its lack of popularity is also exactly why I still don't use one.
And its not for the reasons you may think- I'm very much a fan of getting a tool that does the job, regardless of whether or not its the "popular choice". Heck, most of my clients still aren't aware of DSLR video at all, and ask where my "real camera" is when I show up with a Canon. At this point, it wouldn't matter if the camera were a Panasonic. Going back to the OP, I also don't use a Mac for my editing, as I can set up a multi-PC render farm of i5's from the Dell Outlet for the price of a single Mac editing station (nothing against Mac, I used to love them back in the 80s, but they are just not a sensible investment to me unless you are being forced to use Final Cut).
So if I'm not sold by hype, why is the Canon still a "better tool for the job" for me?
1) Magic Lantern. The tools presented in ML actually turn DSLRs from "a decent alternative" to an extremely full featured video camera. Magic zoom and focus peaking tools making pulling accurate focus on a small display possible. If you are shooting with low F/stop manual lenses, I can't imagine working without this. I would LOVE to see ML ported to the GH series, but it seems unlikely.
2) Standard audio jack and headphone monitoring. When using ML and an external preamp, you can effectively eliminate the need for dual-system audio with sync in post. Yes, you can get an adapter to go into the GH, but even then ML allows live headphone monitoring via the A/V jack. It just works like my full sized camera. I recently shot a piece for network television, no complaints about the audio.
3) More standard lenses (for photography purposes). I've heard it argued that the GH series is just as good as Canon when it comes to still photography. I think that's arguable, but I've seen excellent results come from both. Either way, you can't argue that Canon has more native glass available for full-auto functions when taking stills. As I understand it, Panasonic's lineup of native lenses are rather limited.
4) Accessories. This is one of the only things that makes me jealous of iOS owners. I have an Android tablet and phone, and all I ever see in accessories are for the iPad and iPhone. Because they are more popular. There are thousands of cheap cases, adapters, holsters, etc... and nothing for my lesser-known devices. If I can find something made for my stuff, its usually proprietary and custom-designed on a small run, and therefore costs a heckuva lot more. This is one of those rare times that going with the popular brand really helps you out- there are SO many accessories designed specifically for Canon cameras (batteries, rigs, loupes, holsters, etc) that are cheap and easy to come by.
That's just off the top of my head.
These are all things that the GH2 *could* be capable of if it were more popular... If the GH2 were outselling the Canons, perhaps Trammel Hudson would have first developed Magic Lantern there instead of the 5D. If it were more popular, there would be more accessories and native lenses. It would be more ubiquitous and it would make more sense for everyone to use them. But they're not.
Again, no disrespect to GH owners, your cameras are awesome and in many ways better than Canon's current lineup (moire, aliasing, and recording limit without pause). I'd still love to pick one up when it comes in stock somewhere around here. But comparing Canon to Apple users is silly. Sometimes the GH2 just isn't better, and its not all hype.
Truth be told, I would have opted for a GH2 if it were available when I was camera shopping. But the GH2 has been considerably harder to come by, and out of the dozens of videographers I interact with, I think only one had ever used a GH2 to shoot something.
Heck, I had a conversation with a corporate sales rep at B&H (a personal friend of mine) who wasn't even aware of it being used for pro video.
Panasonic is dropping the ball left and right when it comes to pushing these cameras, and its sad because it seems like quite the decent option. Indeed, its lack of popularity is also exactly why I still don't use one.
And its not for the reasons you may think- I'm very much a fan of getting a tool that does the job, regardless of whether or not its the "popular choice". Heck, most of my clients still aren't aware of DSLR video at all, and ask where my "real camera" is when I show up with a Canon. At this point, it wouldn't matter if the camera were a Panasonic. Going back to the OP, I also don't use a Mac for my editing, as I can set up a multi-PC render farm of i5's from the Dell Outlet for the price of a single Mac editing station (nothing against Mac, I used to love them back in the 80s, but they are just not a sensible investment to me unless you are being forced to use Final Cut).
So if I'm not sold by hype, why is the Canon still a "better tool for the job" for me?
1) Magic Lantern. The tools presented in ML actually turn DSLRs from "a decent alternative" to an extremely full featured video camera. Magic zoom and focus peaking tools making pulling accurate focus on a small display possible. If you are shooting with low F/stop manual lenses, I can't imagine working without this. I would LOVE to see ML ported to the GH series, but it seems unlikely.
2) Standard audio jack and headphone monitoring. When using ML and an external preamp, you can effectively eliminate the need for dual-system audio with sync in post. Yes, you can get an adapter to go into the GH, but even then ML allows live headphone monitoring via the A/V jack. It just works like my full sized camera. I recently shot a piece for network television, no complaints about the audio.
3) More standard lenses (for photography purposes). I've heard it argued that the GH series is just as good as Canon when it comes to still photography. I think that's arguable, but I've seen excellent results come from both. Either way, you can't argue that Canon has more native glass available for full-auto functions when taking stills. As I understand it, Panasonic's lineup of native lenses are rather limited.
4) Accessories. This is one of the only things that makes me jealous of iOS owners. I have an Android tablet and phone, and all I ever see in accessories are for the iPad and iPhone. Because they are more popular. There are thousands of cheap cases, adapters, holsters, etc... and nothing for my lesser-known devices. If I can find something made for my stuff, its usually proprietary and custom-designed on a small run, and therefore costs a heckuva lot more. This is one of those rare times that going with the popular brand really helps you out- there are SO many accessories designed specifically for Canon cameras (batteries, rigs, loupes, holsters, etc) that are cheap and easy to come by.
That's just off the top of my head.
These are all things that the GH2 *could* be capable of if it were more popular... If the GH2 were outselling the Canons, perhaps Trammel Hudson would have first developed Magic Lantern there instead of the 5D. If it were more popular, there would be more accessories and native lenses. It would be more ubiquitous and it would make more sense for everyone to use them. But they're not.
Again, no disrespect to GH owners, your cameras are awesome and in many ways better than Canon's current lineup (moire, aliasing, and recording limit without pause). I'd still love to pick one up when it comes in stock somewhere around here. But comparing Canon to Apple users is silly. Sometimes the GH2 just isn't better, and its not all hype.
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bronxjragon
Well-known member
As Rick already pointed, GH2 loses in popularity, which is a shame.
Truth be told, I would have opted for a GH2 if it were available when I was camera shopping. But the GH2 has been considerably harder to come by, and out of the dozens of videographers I interact with, I think only one had ever used a GH2 to shoot something.
Heck, I had a conversation with a corporate sales rep at B&H (a personal friend of mine) who wasn't even aware of it being used for pro video.
Panasonic is dropping the ball left and right when it comes to pushing these cameras, and its sad because it seems like quite the decent option. Indeed, its lack of popularity is also exactly why I still don't use one.
And its not for the reasons you may think- I'm very much a fan of getting a tool that does the job, regardless of whether or not its the "popular choice". Heck, most of my clients still aren't aware of DSLR video at all, and ask where my "real camera" is when I show up with a Canon. At this point, it wouldn't matter if the camera were a Panasonic. Going back to the OP, I also don't use a Mac for my editing, as I can set up a multi-PC render farm of i5's from the Dell Outlet for the price of a single Mac editing station (nothing against Mac, I used to love them back in the 80s, but they are just not a sensible investment to me unless you are being forced to use Final Cut).
So if I'm not sold by hype, why is the Canon still a "better tool for the job" for me?
1) Magic Lantern. The tools presented in ML actually turn DSLRs from "a decent alternative" to an extremely full featured video camera. Magic zoom and focus peaking tools making pulling accurate focus on a small display possible. If you are shooting with low F/stop manual lenses, I can't imagine working without this. I would LOVE to see ML ported to the GH series, but it seems unlikely.
2) Standard audio jack and headphone monitoring. When using ML and an external preamp, you can effectively eliminate the need for dual-system audio with sync in post. Yes, you can get an adapter to go into the GH, but even then ML allows live headphone monitoring via the A/V jack. It just works like my full sized camera. I recently shot a piece for network television, no complaints about the audio.
3) More standard lenses (for photography purposes). I've heard it argued that the GH series is just as good as Canon when it comes to still photography. I think that's arguable, but I've seen excellent results come from both. Either way, you can't argue that Canon has more native glass available for full-auto functions when taking stills. As I understand it, Panasonic's lineup of native lenses are rather limited.
4) Accessories. This is one of the only things that makes me jealous of iOS owners. I have an Android tablet and phone, and all I ever see in accessories are for the iPad and iPhone. Because they are more popular. There are thousands of cheap cases, adapters, holsters, etc... and nothing for my lesser-known devices. If I can find something made for my stuff, its usually proprietary and custom-designed on a small run, and therefore costs a heckuva lot more. This is one of those rare times that going with the popular brand really helps you out- there are SO many accessories designed specifically for Canon cameras (batteries, rigs, loupes, holsters, etc) that are cheap and easy to come by.
That's just off the top of my head.
These are all things that the GH2 *could* be capable of if it were more popular... If the GH2 were outselling the Canons, perhaps Trammel Hudson would have first developed Magic Lantern there instead of the 5D. If it were more popular, there would be more accessories and native lenses. It would be more ubiquitous and it would make more sense for everyone to use them. But they're not.
Again, no disrespect to GH owners, your cameras are awesome and in many ways better than Canon's current lineup (moire, aliasing, and recording limit without pause). I'd still love to pick one up when it comes in stock somewhere around here. But comparing Canon to Apple users is silly. Sometimes the GH2 just isn't better, and its not all hype.
Agreed with what he said, I'm just too inarticulate to summarize it as such.
bronxjragon
Well-known member
Biggest thing for me was affordable lenses/options and accessories as well.
Why do people perpetuate this lie? iOS isn't more popular at all. Android by far wins in market share worldwide; http://www.comscore.com/Press_Event...uary_2012_U.S._Mobile_Subscriber_Market_Share
I'd much rather have and use a Samsung Galaxy SIII or htc One X Android smartphone than give in to some weaker Apple product just because it's trendy.
It all comes down to do you know how to get the most out of your camera/equipment and are there any limitations for that equipment.
You could have the most perfect camera imaginable. If you don’t know how to use its features then the camera really won’t help you.
Those features don’t always stay the same either. I bet most people have not given the new and improved AFC a try with the version 1.1 firmware. It is the first larger sensor video AFC that I have used that really works. It is completely usable even with the faster lenses(25mm F1.4 and 45mm F1.8).
However, most “Pro” shooters will never even consider trying it because it wasn’t good in the past.
The bottom line is that you have to keep an open mind. There are a lot of things the GH2 does right today and only a few limitations that it has. Those limitations could get fixed for the GH2/GH3 or they could be made worse in the GH3. You never know.
The Canon 5D MKIII looks like a good camera. However, it still has some limitations that I couldn’t live with. It has some features I want but those don’t necessarily override the limitations.
I am just glad that we have so many great HD cameras for everyone to choose from. Remember it wasn’t that long ago that everyone was shooting 4:3 480i and saying it looked great. It makes me cringe when I think about what was considered “High Quality Video” just one decade ago.
You could have the most perfect camera imaginable. If you don’t know how to use its features then the camera really won’t help you.
Those features don’t always stay the same either. I bet most people have not given the new and improved AFC a try with the version 1.1 firmware. It is the first larger sensor video AFC that I have used that really works. It is completely usable even with the faster lenses(25mm F1.4 and 45mm F1.8).
However, most “Pro” shooters will never even consider trying it because it wasn’t good in the past.
The bottom line is that you have to keep an open mind. There are a lot of things the GH2 does right today and only a few limitations that it has. Those limitations could get fixed for the GH2/GH3 or they could be made worse in the GH3. You never know.
The Canon 5D MKIII looks like a good camera. However, it still has some limitations that I couldn’t live with. It has some features I want but those don’t necessarily override the limitations.
I am just glad that we have so many great HD cameras for everyone to choose from. Remember it wasn’t that long ago that everyone was shooting 4:3 480i and saying it looked great. It makes me cringe when I think about what was considered “High Quality Video” just one decade ago.
stoneinapond
Veteran
:crybaby:
Rick Burnett
Section Moderator
It's not a lie that iPad/iPhone have more accessories available. From a musician standpoint there are some AWESOME accessories for the iPad to be used in professional settings.
Like:
http://www.alesis.com/iodock
Or (iPhone):
http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32.aspx
Or:
http://www.akaipro.com/synthstation49
Or:
http://www.akaiprompc.com/mpc-fly
And I am sure I could go on and on showing you more things that are available. (Like all the Midi interfaces as well). Let's not forget about software either. While there is an android version of this:
http://hexler.net/software/touchosc
The author says he just cannot make the android version customizable and that makes it useless for most applications of the it, as I use it as a controller which means my iPad replaced the functionality of the lemur which was around $1700+ discounted.
http://www.jazzmutant.com/lemur_overview.php
The problem with Android right now is the same problem with Linux, fragmentation. There are too many different implementations on too many phones without any hardware standardization. Because of this, it makes it difficult for developers of hardware or software to make things for a huge moving target. Take this even further, most android phone manufacturers don't support their product on multiple versions of the OS, instead, they just release a new phone. HTC is very guilty of doing this outside the nexus 1. Don't believe it? Check this out:
http://theunderstatement.com/post/11982112928/android-orphans-visualizing-a-sad-history-of-support
My iPad makes me money. It's paid for itself about 5 times over. I can't argue with that.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Because its not a lie. And you completely failed at understanding my point.
First of all, on a global scale Android is more popular simply because the market is flooded with devices. Phones, tablets, netbooks, e-readers, embedded media players, heck even point-of-sale devices are starting to use Android as an OS. But there is not single Android device that even comes close to the marketshare of any single Apple device. That means that if you're marketing an accessory for a particular product (a case, an adapter, battery extension, inductive charger, etc), you will get far more sales by targeting the latest iPhone/iPad/iPodTouch than any other single Android device in existence. The very fact that you couldn't pick one Android device to combat the iPhone is proof of this dilemma (Galaxy S3, HTC1? Maybe the newest Motorola Droid offering, or LG's 6-core Nvidia-Tegra based chip? Can you say "fragmentation"?).
This also bleeds over into the software space- When marketing a software product, "mobile versions" more often than not means "iOS", then eventually being released to Android and other OSes (if it makes it to other OSes) after that. Look at any major software release- Its rare to find anything that is released on Android first, and then iOS, simple because the Apple market is the standard by which all others are judged.
And I'm saying this as an Android guy who prefers PCs as an editing platform. I gave up on Apple years ago for budget and personal reasons, but always re-evaluate my stance everytime I need to purchase a new product (I like to think of myself as platform-agnostic). But I'm fair enough to acknowledge what Apple is and what they aren't. Your marketshare statistics don't tell the whole story.
Meanwhile, back on topic here- Comparing Apple to Canon still isn't fair.
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