GH4 Panasonic GH5 coming in 2017

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Fasle color

Vesku said:
I wonder why most users feel it is not good to see what exposure camera uses. Preferred options seems to be full manual or full blind auto.
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The only thing I care about is the exposure; not the values that give me my exposure. I have my shutter locked at 180 degrees, and I've chosen my shots DOF by my lens and it's aperture.

What would you do differently if you were shooting in Shutter Priority mode and got 1/50th and f/11? What would you do to keep the same exposure? You already told the camera what was important to you when you picked Shutter Priority, so now you have aperture and ISO left. But why is aperture so important if you don't have the facility in your chosen operating mode to change it? I truly just don't understand the point, and I've been silently listening to your argument for months, hoping one day I would be enlightened as to the utility of this, yet I can't!

Why not just use auto ISO in manual mode and use exposure comp to set your exposure?
Or do like EVERYONE ELSE and use False Color to see what the exposure is on your subjects, and adjust aperture and ISO accordingly, because the shutter should already be at 180 degrees.
 
Batutta said:
Because we don't want the camera to choose it for us, and we don't want those things changing mid-shot. Unless I'm going for an effect, the shutter is going to stay at 180 degrees, or 1/50, or whatever is double the frame rate to get the most natural motion blur. Now you're down to ISO and shutter. On the GH4, I want the ISO to be as low as possible for maximum quality with the least amount of grain, between 200-800 unless I'm in a real low light situation. Then there's aperture, which, unless I'm shooting on a wide lens, I want as open as possible for cinematic depth of field (f1.4 to 2.8 on the GH4). I definitely don't want this on auto and changing mid shot. That's why I shoot all manual. If I need to cut brightness, I use an ND.
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I think this is where the difference may be between us. I do not want the cinematic look. I like the live fast frame rate look and just about everything in focus. My iris will be at max sweet spot for the lens for max depth of field for the particular location. Very different to most I know. For me the attraction of the GH5 is being able to shoot UHD 60P as a fixed full stage camera and then crop/pan /zoom in post editing to create the final video archive of the event. Consequently I want the highest quality image I can get with everything in focus so that I can crop/pan/zoom and reproduce the effect of a mutlicam shoot from one camera. The attraction is smoother pans than is possible live, same for zooms matching exactly the action on stage. I can do this with my FDR-AX1 but it just is not a good enough camera for the range of lighting condition I get. So I do understand that my use for a GH5 is likely very different than most as I likely will not take still pictures with it at all and my lens choices will be short zooms just to frame the stage. I too may end up with an Atomos Inferno to get the highest quality file to work with maybe in HDR too.
 
filmguy123 said:
Would there be any problems shooting 4k 29.97 10-bit 4:2:2 and then conforming it to 23.98 in Premiere (so basically making it 30p at a 24p timebase) to grant a subtle 4K slow motion to clips?
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We used to do this all the time back before there was VFR; this is how we'd get slow motion on the DVX100. We'd shoot 30p, then drop it on a 24p timeline and set the playback rate at 80%. Works perfectly. I can't imagine why Premiere wouldn't be able to do it too.

The slow motion you get is quite mild, it makes it such that the footage takes 25% longer to play back than it took to shoot, but -- it is slow motion, and it'd be frame accurate, with no frame blending or other artifacts.
 
estarkey7 said:
The only thing I care about is the exposure; not the values that give me my exposure. I have my shutter locked at 180 degrees, and I've chosen my shots DOF by my lens and it's aperture.

What would you do differently if you were shooting in Shutter Priority mode and got 1/50th and f/11? What would you do to keep the same exposure? You already told the camera what was important to you when you picked Shutter Priority, so now you have aperture and ISO left. But why is aperture so important if you don't have the facility in your chosen operating mode to change it? I truly just don't understand the point, and I've been silently listening to your argument for months, hoping one day I would be enlightened as to the utility of this, yet I can't
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I dont use 180 degree shutter. I dont need shallow DOF. I dont use ND filters. I have all freedom to choose exposure values or methods. With 4k 60P I can use what ever shutter speed I want. If the DOF changes a little during a clip its OK for me.

I want easy setup and I want to avoid the most disturbing issues (for me):
1. Noise at high iso.
2. Clipped highlights with wrong exposure.
3. Too low shutter speed causing motion blur and making post stabilization difficult.
4. Too small aperture causing diffraction.
5. Too big aperture causing out of focus subjects.
6. flickering with electric lights.
7. Exposure jumps caused by stepping aperture in Pana lenses.
8. Exposure jumps when changing manual exposure during a clip
9. Wrong exposure caused by user or changing light

To avoid those faults I want to see what exposure values or iso the camera is offering to me. Depending on situations I must use A or S and/or auto iso. M in difficult and important situations.

I am not a film maker and for my own use i dont have to follow all the old rules. If I would make commercial videos I would use more conventional methods.

If it is disturbing to see exposure info you can use tape or something to cover expo info. It may confuse users head watching changing number. Or you can use display button to hide all info from screen.
 
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Ron Evans said:
I shoot in the theatre where lighting changes can be very big between scenes. I want to maintain depth of field on the stage and do not want gain to get too much because of grain in the image. Once the show starts I cannot stop and play around with parameters too much. Hence my approach of fixing shutter speed to be the image blur I will accept considering low light I will make this as slow as is reasonable for the particular show. Mostly it is at the bottom 1/60. With a gain limit so the grain does not get too bad automatically on me, I have control of the iris in manual and AE shift slightly negative ( since the camera in the dark environment would like to open up too much). The camera has fine gain control though the indication is the normal steps, I can see if I am approaching the limits that I have set. For instance with the 1/3" sensor sweet spot is around F4. I will not shut down more than F5.6 because the image gets soft and opening up beyond F3.5 is at the limit of ramping on the zoom lens. It is much better to let the camera control gain and then switch in ND and control AE shift resulting in a smoother final video without steps in exposure etc. Seeing what the auto function is selecting gives a heads up as to what may be needed as an intervention by me.

Depends what you are shooting. Closeup of a flower in macro etc for a 4 min video then by all means use full manual to get the shallow depth of field etc that is needed. If you are shooting a dance show with flashing colored LED lights that have a random switching sequence --good luck. Controlling this with some level of automation with control of AE speed etc is really useful if the show is over 2 hours long.
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Oh, I get it now. You want the human eye. Good luck with that.
 
Vesku said:
I dont use 180 degree shutter. I dont need shallow DOF. I dont use ND filters. I have all freedom to choose exposure values or methods. With 4k 60P I can use what ever shutter speed I want. If the DOF changes a little during a clip its OK for me.

I want easy setup and I want to avoid the most disturbing issues (for me):
1. Noise at high iso.
2. Clipped highlights with wrong exposure.
3. Too low shutter speed causing motion blur and making post stabilization difficult.
4. Too small aperture causing diffraction.
5. Too big aperture causing out of focus subjects.
6. flickering with electric lights.
7. Exposure jumps caused by stepping aperture in Pana lenses.
8. Exposure jumps when changing manual exposure during a clip
9. Wrong exposure caused by user or changing light

To avoid those faults I want to see what exposure values or iso the camera is offering to me. Depending on situations I must use A or S and/or auto iso. M in difficult and important situations.

I am not a film maker and for my own use i dont have to follow all the old rules. If I would make commercial videos I would use more conventional methods.

If it is disturbing to see exposure info you can use tape or something to cover expo info. It may confuse users head watching changing number. Or you can use display button to hide all info from screen.
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Or you can use the camera as it was intended to be used. I'm not going to put tape on my display just so you can have a feature only you want. Then again I wouldn't be caught dead using the s or p priority modes to shoot video so it doesn't really matter. I understand you find shooting in those modes easier for whatever reason but what many of us are telling you is that perhaps it would be best to learn how to shoot in a wide variety of situations with manual exposure. It really isn't that hard and many of us do it all the time.

I also understand this is information you want to see but it just isn't there right now and likely will not be since not very many people are asking for it. You also have to remember this is a forum and has nothing to do with Panasonic. You can preach the blasphemy of not having this feature on the cameras until you are blue in the face and honestly it will do no good. Submit feature requests to Panasonic. We are not going to do it for you. If this is a feature you are this passionate about then start writing to Panasonic to add it to the GH6. Don't wait until the feature set is locked for the GH6, do it now. Engineers need time to plan the feature set and once it is locked in a last minute request will not make it in. It is for sure too late for the GH4 and likely now too late for the GH5. Firmware can only do so much and without a large number of people requesting the same feature it will likely get ignored.

I personally don't see the point of this feature but hey if you insist on using the camera that way I'm not going to try to stop you. To each their own. I don't agree with how you are using it but go ahead and do what you want. I'm just saying try to use the camera more in manual exposure mode. Eventually you will do much better than the camera ever could. I know you can do it.
 
estarkey7 said:
Oh, I get it now. You want the human eye. Good luck with that.
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I can actually do this now with my Sony FDR-AX1, in UHD 60P. I just want a better sensor than the 1/3" in it ( likely the same as in the Panasonic HC-X1000 ) The approach I detailed is how I run my NX5U most of the time and have done so for a few years now. For the Sony's with just gain in auto one can use AE shift to control the exposure with much finer control than switching gain ( on the Sony they are big steps of 3 db at a time ) and manually controlling the iris. OF course I often lock the exposure too. Really depends what one needs the output to be. A clear record of an event or a cinematic video. Approaches will likely be very different even using the same equipment
 
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Ron and Vesku I remember when I moved to higher end camera gear (this was like 14 years ago) and felt like features were "missing". I actually understand what you are saying from reading this, and all for more features in any product if executed well and not detracting from other things. I don't see any reason from a programming standpoint why this would be a terribly difficult menu option to display or not in auto.

But do keep in mind what others are saying. One of the reasons the camera doesn't do this is because it's a huge drawback to give up control of settings. This was pointed out in the post Vesku. One on hand, you dont care about any of these settings and they can be whatever, on the other hand, you very much care about them and have a list of problems. I do understand the difference and what you are saying, but really when things get THAT specific it is time to upgrade your personal toolset and learn how to handle this by properly setting up the camera in manual and choosing a compromise in image quality (likely losing some of the shadows when things get dark).

I'll point out a few thoughts for you on that:

Exposure levels adjusting all over the place IS a compromise as well, and arguably a more distracting one.

You might be surprised how well the camera could maintain a constant setting and perform well for you.

A little bit of post work can go a LONG ways. Shoot to protect your highlights, or at least the important ones, and be ok losing some of the overly dark shadows. You probably won't lose as much as you think. In post, especially with the new GH5 robust codec, you will have increased dynamic range and less noise in shadows, as well as better abiity to lift the shadows.

The best solution to this problem may already exist, though I never shoot auto and haven't researched the new autoISO my assumption would be you could set the camera at a constant aperture that works for you, the proper shutter speed locked as close to 180 degree as possible to avoid flicker, and then set your ISO to 800 and turn on AutoISO, allowing the camera to adjust up or down as needed, and set an ISO ceiling of say 3200 (assuming thats possible with auto ISO). Even if its not, the noise looks to be SO much better in GH5 its likely a non issue.

Sure, it would be cool if Panasonic had a settings menu for auto that allowed you to dial in parameters. That's really what you are asking for. Say min-max parameters on shutter, aperture, and ISO, and then go auto within that range. That's what you want. That would be cool. It would seem an easy program trick to me.

I would never use it, but I won't criticize you for wanting it. Just realize you don't actually need it to accomplish what you want, and should be able to get great results by learning just a tad bit more on your camera, some smart setting choices, a little bit of post work... and recognize that the GH5 improvements in other areas may largely solve your problem.

Just pointing out a pragmatic approach since these features may never come, or if they do, may be at least a year out.
 
TheDingo said:
The GH5 does exactly this for the Auto-ISO feature. You can set the highest and lowest ISO you want it to use.
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Good!! I wasn't sure but that was in my proposed solution of setting aperture and shutter static, dialing that in at a baseline of 800 ISO so that camera has room to stop down and stop up as needed on ISO. For the level of work it sounds like they are doing, I can't imagine the much cleaner ISO at 1600 or even 3200 on the GH5 won't solve their problems with two stops up and down in flexibility. Add 10b422 and a little time in post to push/pull as needed and it should work a charm.
 
This all sounds interesting. It is like someone talking about peaking features and some other saying "dont use peaking because it is better to use AF and I work that way".

It would be very easy for Panasonic to fix FW showing exposure info. I think that actually Panasonic cameras has additional programming to block automatic exposure values. 4k photo video shows it and phone app shows it so there is a block for camera screen. I think the reason is that Panasonic dont want to show how their auto exposure works. In P-mode it wont adjust aperture because it has stepping exposure changes so it adjusts exposure with shutter speed. It is not generally a preferred way to adjust exposure so Panasonic dont want to show it.

Many of you say I should learn to use manual exposure. It is not the case. I can use manual and I use it in difficult situations. I know the rules. There are simply so many situations when I can get better exposure with auto and easier than using manual. When i go to some shooting session I program my GH4 auto exposure so that I can get optimal result easily. If I want constant exposure I just press AE-lock.

Many times the situations are so fast that I have 1-2 seconds to power on the camera and start shooting. A sudden wild animal, jet fighter, funny moment need instant reaction. If I had programmed my camera properly before I can just power on and press the shutter. Some situations are so difficult that it is impossible to even see how to dial manual exposure. Very high or low angle or dangerous places prevents dialing manual. When panning from shadow to sun it is better to let auto exposure adjust brightness than get totally white face with manual. When clouds drift in the sky the brightness changes. It is better that camera changes exposure smoothly than dialing stepping manual with audible clicks. I prefer properly exposed clips vs too dark/too bright + post processing. I think I have good reasons to use auto exposure. I dont understand why so many are saying using auto features are wrong. It is like saying dont use automatic gears in expensive car, learn how to use manual gears. Is it also wrong to use auto focus or auto WB?

GH4 and GH5 works best at base iso200. When upping iso the noise increases and details blurs. I want that camera uses always lowist iso possible. Auto iso makes exactly that. Starting with iso800 and letting iso drift up and down is a bad advice. Iso800 is noisy and blurs details. Besides it is impossible to start with some iso because auto iso is not showing the iso value.
 
TheDingo said:
The GH5 does exactly this for the Auto-ISO feature. You can set the highest and lowest ISO you want it to use.
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Do we know anything about the ability to set minimum shutter speeds while in Aperture Priority?


Vesku said:
I think I have good reasons to use auto exposure. I dont understand why so many are saying using auto features are wrong.
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I agree, I too feel a well understood auto exposure is also a very powerful tool, but like you say, if you know the camera is trying to go for a 360' shutter angle in a fast moving room, the footage is gonna look rubbish. I think perhaps what you are after Verku is a FS5 type camera, where you can set up the camera to your required settings 1/60, ISO200, f4 (say) and let the ND filter take care of the exposure all without effecting the 'look'?
 
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GH5 new focus pull feature is very nice. I think it would be even better if having an option to drive focus motor using joystick. For example: Speed1 - up/down, speed2 - left/right.
 
TheTrickster said:
Do we know anything about the ability to set minimum shutter speeds while in Aperture Priority?
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I spotted the Auto-ISO min / max settings in one of the GH5 menu videos, but I haven't seen anything similar for shutter speeds. Would Panasonic even know that there's a need for this feature ?
 
I think Vesku and I shoot very different projects to some of you. For your information I am not a young inexperienced guy I just had my 75 birthday and have shot both film and video since the 1960's. I moved from film to video and also changed my nomenclature as well. Shutter is now speed not angle since what we are talking about is the time the sensor collects light before it is read to memory, iso is gain to me the amount of amplification used on the output from the sensor. Which like film is variable but realtime not in processing of film. A lot of the time I too am in full manual but for what I am sure the opposite of what I lot of you strive for in their image. I go for max depth of field and smoothest motion. I see the GH5 as simplifying some of my event shooting and will likely only ever shoot UHD60P video. I will certainly use the app so I think will show all the information I want as the camera will be remote. We will have to see how the GH5 interfaces with the app for sure.

Like Vesku there are situations in the theatre where lighting can have very fast and extreme changes. In my case if I am in manual on my NX5U I will not be able to change fast enough and end up relying on the small Sony's used for wide shots in semi auto mode. Shutter is always fixed the same on all the cameras if the show is dark the shutter is 1/60 if light I may go to 1/90. As you will note neither follow the 180 rule as some cameras shoot 60i the others 60p. 60i and 60p for information has the same number of images just 60i is only half the vertical resolution and the 29.97fps is timecode and the start of the 2 field sequence. Temporal motion is the same. The small Sony's set with AE shift ( fixed shutter speed and the camera is controlling iris and gain with upper gain limit) if I go into this mode on the NX5U I control iris, set AE shift and let gain be under control of the camera but with an upper gain limit set. I can set the speed that the AE uses so that changes are smooth and not noticeable but change faster than I could manually or as smooth.

To the full manual people it is a bit like saying the only transmission to have on a car is a manual one. I guess that is why race cars have controllable automatics !!!
 
I think we all thoroughly understand what Vesku wants by now, and it's his right to ask for it. And if his way of shooting works for him then great. But his way of working is not typical, and even for those who do rely on auto settings, either in part or fully, don't care about seeing that information on screen. It's not a priority for most shooters to have this feature, and likely not a priority for Panasonic.
 
This is also not a knock on using the auto exposure. What it is about is just how important is it really to see the aperture while shooting in these modes? My point was always what can you really do with that information? If you see the camera shift from f4 to f12 what can you really do with that information? If you are shooting live do you quickly shove the camera in manual mode? That seems more obtrusive vs just letting the camera do what it thinks is best. If I'm shooting auto because it really makes the most sense then I'm really letting go and letting the camera do its thing. While it might be nice to visually see what numbers the camera is using you can't really do anything with that information. That is where we find the request a bit odd.

This is also not a fix the FW situation but a feature request. There is nothing flawed with the cameras and it isn't a bug. The camera is working exactly as it was designed to work. This is 100% a feature request.
 
This is just to explain some reasoning that Vesku may have. I am sure he can add. The example is how I use my NX5U video camera ( going to the GH5 is a first for me as all the other cameras are video cameras ). I track the action on stage with the NX5U using zoom etc. The lens on the NX5U ramps from f1.6 to say f4. so if I zoom in the iris will change altering the exposure that has to be compensated either by me manually at the same time I am zooming or automatically. Consequently I set my iris at between f4 and f5.6 so that I do not have to worry about the ramping I have the gain in auto with AE shift slightly negative and with a gain limit of 12db. I really do not want to the gain to go beyond 9db so I can watch how the camera is managing the gain and if I see it go to 9 db I can back off the zoom and open the iris until the light improves a little. I also have 3 switch position for gain that I set for a show and can go complete manual if I can see what the auto has set I can then choose that switch position and go into manual with no effect on what is being recorded. That way I can go back and for between manual and semi auto depending on the situation. But being able to see the values and whether they are in manual or automatic ( little A beside them when in auto) is useful and part of most modern video cameras. I too am in a learning curve for still cameras shooting video. As I think I have said goal for me is UHD 60P 10bit 4:2:2 and the only other choices to get this in a video camera are DVX200 with real wide angle limitations and both needing an external recorder like the Inferno or go as far as a Sony FS7. Either way a lot more expensive and I think the WiFi app is better for the GH5 ( assuming its the same as the GH4 and FZ2500 app )

edit: just to add what is choice for auto and reasoning. iris will control depth of field ( for me as deep as possible so sort of fixed for a wide shot get whole stage in focus) and shutter speed the motion blur as fixed in my case to match all the other cameras. So the primary variable if these are fixed is the sensor gain. If too bright then ND if too dark its what it is limited by lens !!!
 
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