You're essentially doubling the price of entry that way.
4K RAW at a $2K price point (or less) is the dream here.
GH4 Panasonic GH5 coming in 2017
- Thread starter Dan Keeble
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You're essentially doubling the price of entry that way.
4K RAW at a $2K price point (or less) is the dream here.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
You clearly don't know what a robust professional recording media is supposed to look like. Sure you could use that but that is internal storage and incredibly fragile and easy to break. Not exactly an optimal type of recording media for a run & gun camera or a camera used in not so great environmental conditions. Plus they are too large for a DSLR type camera. There is already media out there for capturing 4k raw, its called C-Fast and what BMD uses on their 4k cameras. The problem is cost and the size of the media. The BMD 4k cameras are much larger and able to take in a larger form of media.
You can't just take any old recording media and show horn it into a tiny DSLR camera body. It just doesn't work that way and is extremely impractical. What if M.2 stop production due to a lack of interest? Then what does Panasonic do? They need to support media that makes sense from an economics perspective.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Key word "dream".
You need to be more realistic when it comes to expectations. Sure it would be great if it could do internal raw but using an external monitor is not just for recording and a lot of serious professionals use an external monitor and external recording. There is a very valid reason why external raw is a feature on the higher end monitors and it does make sense to give that option to users. Some very high end cameras like the Sony fS7 support raw through external recorders. Do not use BMD as some sort of benchmark because they are not. They are the exception to the rule and not the norm.
Besides like I said it really isn't even about the capabilities of the camera. All cameras process raw internally. They just don't have the ability to dump it into a file. When the GH4 shoots 4k video it is processing 4k raw from the sensor, de-bayering it live in the camera up to 30 times a second, and applying any adjustments and profiles to that raw signal before it dumps it into a compressed format. Getting raw in the camera is not a problem at all. The problem is what to dump it to and is that media reliable, stable and not going to disappear in six months because it is an obscure niche product.
A media holder would solve that, like the PIX-E5.
They're not large or affordable enough.
All real world products start that way. The GH5 probably won't get us there, but I still feel the goal is a worthy one to strive for.
They do often redefine the price/performance bar, though. I've no argument with other companies trying to limbo under that bar. Do you?
A problem definitely worth solving, I feel, and sooner rather than later.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Yes and that increases the size because the camera needs to be able to take in that media holder. I do not doubt we will eventually have a media alternative but M.2 is not it. It is more realistic to hope a tried and true robust format like C-Fast 2 will drop in price and increase their capacities. P2 was a success because it was a media standard created by Panasonic for the purpose of recording video. It is much harder to take a random flavor of the month storage media and expect it to become a viable storage solution for video that is sustainable. Even C-Fast 2 struggles a bit as a video standard since only a hand full of cameras actually use it. If it wasn't for the fact that it is really the only realistic robust ultra fast recording format I'm not sure it would survive.
I still stand by a DSLR may be too small of a form factor to ever include a solid raw recording capability. At least for a couple of generations. I think it is much more realistic for Panasonic to at least give us external raw as an option for those that really do need it. Same reason why it might be some time before we see a compact BMD camera with 4k raw. I have been waiting for years to see a 4k pocket camera but the recording format is likely what is holding it back.
Alexa Mini dimensions - 7.3 x 4.9 x 5.5
GH4 - 5.23 x 3.68 x 3.30
The extra size was needed due to processing/heat issues.
The problem isn't that one can't have Raw inside a "small" size model but that a manufacturer must think that, if someone wants Raw, then they can afford a higher end product. That DJI drone is a modular unit, whose costs add up for the shooting package. Given the market trends, I'd expect a gimbal ready 4K Raw enabled piece from some manufacturer and priced considerably lower than Alexa in time for 2016 NAB.
Then, of course, there's that infamous gentleman's agreement that results in higher specs showing up on the BMD, Red, DJI, Samsung models before they appear on Sony, Canon, Panasonic and Nikon too. Visually, a hacked NX1 with the 160 Mbps bit rate in H265 is akin to ProRes 444, which is visually indistinguishable from most compressed Raw flavors.
PS. NX1 80 Mbps files were converted to ProRes Standard of 500 Mbps. ProRes HQ is 770 and 444 is around 1 Gbps.
GH4 - 5.23 x 3.68 x 3.30
The extra size was needed due to processing/heat issues.
The problem isn't that one can't have Raw inside a "small" size model but that a manufacturer must think that, if someone wants Raw, then they can afford a higher end product. That DJI drone is a modular unit, whose costs add up for the shooting package. Given the market trends, I'd expect a gimbal ready 4K Raw enabled piece from some manufacturer and priced considerably lower than Alexa in time for 2016 NAB.
Then, of course, there's that infamous gentleman's agreement that results in higher specs showing up on the BMD, Red, DJI, Samsung models before they appear on Sony, Canon, Panasonic and Nikon too. Visually, a hacked NX1 with the 160 Mbps bit rate in H265 is akin to ProRes 444, which is visually indistinguishable from most compressed Raw flavors.
PS. NX1 80 Mbps files were converted to ProRes Standard of 500 Mbps. ProRes HQ is 770 and 444 is around 1 Gbps.
That's why I like the idea of incorporating that into the battery grip. Include a full size HDMI port and sell it for under $200 and Panasonic would have a solution that even Blackmagic couldn't touch.
The BMPCC is even smaller.
That's why I like M.2. The data rates are sufficient, sizes are sufficient, and prices are reasonable.
Damn, I would love such a camera.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Yes it is but it can also get away with SDHC cards since it only records HD in raw. We are talking 4k which greatly complicates the situation. A 4k version of the pocket would not be able to use M.2 unless they greatly increased the size of the camera. Especially when you factor in M.2 will need some kind of shell to protect it. M.2 can be small because it is internal storage and doesn't need a protective shell around it. This is where C-fast 2 is a better option for shooting video. Yes it costs more but there is a good reason why it costs more. Because it will not break and is designed to get tossed around when swapping cards.
In the case of the GH5 if it no longer crops for video then to get raw we are talking 5k which is even larger and has a higher data cost.
M.2 is not an option. Just because the cost and size are there doesn't mean it is robust enough for people to actually use. If you have personally used one in that situation and can explain how robust it is then fine but just looking at specs does not mean it is a good option. So many other factors go into video storage. Things like is it a standard, robust, how many times the connectors can be inserted without wear, what would a shell connectors even be like and will that take up even more space, how does weather or the elements affect the readability, how easy it is to find, how many people manufacture it, will it be around six months from now? These are all factors that have to go into the decision process with a company like Panasonic. You don't just willy nilly add in support for any random type of media if it will ultimately affect the sales of the camera itself.
Thomas Smet
Veteran
Of course you can have raw in any small form factor camera. Every camera on the planet processes raw internally in the DSP. The issue is what to dump it to when you are talking 4k and higher resolutions. While the size both cameras take up in a box may not be vastly different what is different is the form factor and how much space there is on the outside and inside of the Alexa to incorporate larger media. The GH4 in it's current form is a bit tiny to add Cfast 2.0. Other camera do have enough space to incorporate a fast slot like the 7D mk2 but they are larger bodies. As far as I know the GH5 will not be massively larger.
With that said I do consider Cfast 2.0 a realistic option in the future since it is an industry standard on other professional cameras. If the GH5 were larger I could see doing what the 7D mk2 as an option where it can take either Cfast or SDHC. That way users have options if they don't care about raw.
I agree. My point is that M.2 has the needed capacity, speed and pricing. It's tailor made for this purpose in a way that no other format is, at least on those three fronts. I'd love for a camera company to explore it's feasibility, finding real answers to the other questions you pose.
You'll get IBIS but it doesn't look like it has a BSI technology in it, so that will likely stay the same.