C100: New C100 Coming down the line?

Eric Coughlin said:
When you're shooting a 100 million dollar Hollywood movie, 4K is not essential because you're most likely using an Alexa. But when your shooting a $5,000-$100,000 corporate video/commercial/short film, 4K is somehow "essential." Weird how that works.
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I've read that Netflix and Amazon don't accept Alexa footage for their own 4K shows. In fact, according to an interview I saw with the DP, Season 1 of Amazon's Transparent had to be shot 4K on the C500 because of Amazon's unwillingness to accept the Alexa for a show mastered in 4K. This was after they tested both the Alexa and the C500 in the pilot episode.

As for 4K 60P, Discovery Channel has had some of these requirements (I believe it was on Deadliest Catch). So there is going to be demand for this type of content as well, especially as we are in the very early days of 4K distribution on cable/satellite. We have no idea what the 4K TV standard is going to be, but I would not be surprised to see a push for 4K 60P as a broadcast standard once things get underway.

In my case, I worked in the film/TV industry many years ago and certainly before online content was even a real business. However, I was working in TV and Film post-production when HD mastering came along in the late 1990s and early 2000s and I recall the same kinds of arguments that "we don't need HD." Well, it turns out that things moved very quickly after that with the U.S. government itself mandating digital/HD conversion for broadcasters (and an evacuation of those old frequencies on the spectrum).

The push for 4K has mostly come from the consumer electronics giants and not really studios and content providers themselves. I'm sure Congress or the FCC won't be making any requirements for 4K, but Samsung, LG, Vizio, and Sony will be driving the market (and Film/TV/online production) itself towards 4K.

As for ARRI, the Alexa 65 is taking over all the high-end digital productions that may have previously gone with the Alexa. In addition, I'm sure they will soon have a 4K sensor on the market to replace the old 2.8K Alexa.
 
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Kinok said:
Well, it turns out that things moved very quickly after that with the U.S. government itself mandating digital/HD conversion for broadcasters (and an evacuation of those old frequencies on the spectrum)..
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Over the air broadcasting went to digital due to the DTV act, but there was not, nor is there now a mandate for broadcasters to broadcast in HD.
 
puredrifting said:
... Any thoughts? What would you go for if the C100 MKIII was $6,999.00 and the C300 MKII was $9,999.00?
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My retail thoughts match your retail thoughts.

C300 MKII will probably be marked down to $10,000 within a year and C100 MKIII will then be an expected half of that. (C700 will then be around $20,000)

A lot depends on competition, obviously. That whole FS7 vs. C300 MKII contest was a huge loser for Canon, with Sony taking a huge chunk out of the low end pro 4K market. And Sony will not be sitting idle either. There are already rumors of a new FS-series model that could come out during NAB New York. Other competitors are the DSLR style XT-2, GH5 and EM1 MKII (and whatever Sony might release in that niche) that offer sub-$2,000 hybrids with an excellent quality video and that sell in hundreds of thousands per model.
 
David W. Jones said:
Over the air broadcasting went to digital due to the DTV act, but there was not, nor is there now a mandate for broadcasters to broadcast in HD.
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While the HD part was optional (the FCC never officially required it as part of the ATSC standards), the DTV act pushed all the networks towards HDTV broadcasting and that's exactly how DTV was implemented. There was a good reason for this as the ATSC standard was developed around HDTV.
 
Kinok said:
I've read that Netflix and Amazon don't accept Alexa footage for their own 4K shows. In fact, according to an interview I saw with the DP, Season 1 of Amazon's Transparent had to be shot 4K on the C500 because of Amazon's unwillingness to accept the Alexa for a show mastered in 4K. This was after they tested both the Alexa and the C500 in the pilot episode.

As for 4K 60P, Discovery Channel has had some of these requirements (I believe it was on Deadliest Catch). So there is going to be demand for this type of content as well, especially as we are in the very early days of 4K distribution on cable/satellite. We have no idea what the 4K TV standard is going to be, but I would not be surprised to see a push for 4K 60P as a broadcast standard once things get underway.

In my case, I worked in the film/TV industry many years ago and certainly before online content was even a real business. However, I was working in TV and Film post-production when HD mastering came along in the late 1990s and early 2000s and I recall the same kinds of arguments that "we don't need HD." Well, it turns out that things moved very quickly after that with the U.S. government itself mandating digital/HD conversion for broadcasters (and an evacuation of those old frequencies on the spectrum).

The push for 4K has mostly come from the consumer electronics giants and not really studios and content providers themselves. I'm sure Congress or the FCC won't be making any requirements for 4K, but Samsung, LG, Vizio, and Sony will be driving the market (and Film/TV/online production) itself towards 4K.

As for ARRI, the Alexa 65 is taking over all the high-end digital productions that may have previously gone with the Alexa. In addition, I'm sure they will soon have a 4K sensor on the market to replace the old 2.8K Alexa.
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Deadliest is shooting 2K/1080 now.....C300 MK IIs, C100 MK IIs, and a few Sonys.....as far as I've been told by the production company, the 4K thing will be addressed next season...and it's crazy that Discovery wants 4K/60p for their tier one....most of their shows are reality based and for something like Deadliest, its ridiculous. They shoot a bazillion hours of footage and big boy 4K/60p is , is....the boat is going to sink from all the data!

Jim Martin
EVSonline.com
 
drummondb said:
So weird, in fact, that it might not be totally accurate. :smile:

How is 4K essential to you on $5,000-$100,000 corporate videos commercials, and short films?

I'm genuinely curious, and I'm not wholly uneducated on the matter. I run the video team of a Corporation with several hundred million in sales each year. I have done since 2010. I've worked on hundreds of projects with all kinds of budgets from zero dollars to 5 figures. And I've coordinated with outside agencies occasionally on much larger-budgeted national spots. And no one above me has ever asked about 4K
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I have had the opposite experience, I have three Fortune 200 clients who require me to rent a RED or F55 to shoot 4K or above, just because they "want the best." A lot of corporate clients are only superficially knowledgable about gear and formats. Typical budgets in the $10k-$25k range, although I am producing a $100k budget project for one of them right now, but it's all 3D animation, no live action. Same with Amazon, Netflix and Hulu and I am not even shooting new original content for them, we shoot EPK, junkets, BTS, documentary-style material and they all require 4K for 90% of their projects, although I did one this year for Netflix that let us shoot 1080. Have also received words for my producer friend who I shoot a lot of studio projects for that even the studios will soon require 4K origination and delivery (we tried delivering 4K masters when O owned the GH4 and Fox rejected them and we had to downconvert to 1080) so we are getting ready to buy a C300 MKII, just want to wait to see if they do drop it to $10k around NAB or earlier.
 
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drummondb said:
How is 4K essential to you on $5,000-$100,000 corporate videos commercials, and short films?
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Very essential when the client says, "We need 4K or we're not hiring you." Most of my clients still want 1080, but some of my clients insist on 4K, and yet still produce much lower quality content then 2.8K Hollywood Alexa films. There are plenty of people on DVXuser who can attest to clients requiring 4K, and many here get more requests for 4K than I personally do.


Kinok said:
I've read that Netflix and Amazon don't accept Alexa footage for their own 4K shows. In fact, according to an interview I saw with the DP, Season 1 of Amazon's Transparent had to be shot 4K on the C500 because of Amazon's unwillingness to accept the Alexa for a show mastered in 4K. This was after they tested both the Alexa and the C500 in the pilot episode.
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Netflix is lower budget content than the average theatrical releases which are mostly shot on Alexas. You can cite specific examples of those that require 4K, but it doesn't change the fact that the majority of high end content these days is being shot on Alexas at a source of 2.8K.


Kinok said:
As for 4K 60P, Discovery Channel has had some of these requirements (I believe it was on Deadliest Catch). So there is going to be demand for this type of content as well, especially as we are in the very early days of 4K distribution on cable/satellite. We have no idea what the 4K TV standard is going to be, but I would not be surprised to see a push for 4K 60P as a broadcast standard once things get underway.
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As far as the C300 Mark II is concerned, by the time 4K 60p would become a required standard for the majority of television, the C300 Mark III or IV would be out and the Mark II would be an older model. I don't really see future TV specs as much of a concern when it's pretty standard to upgrade an owner/op's camera every two or three years. I suppose for those who try to stretch out their camera's shelf life to say 5-7 years it would be more of a concern.


Kinok said:
As for ARRI, the Alexa 65 is taking over all the high-end digital productions that may have previously gone with the Alexa. In addition, I'm sure they will soon have a 4K sensor on the market to replace the old 2.8K Alexa.
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I see a good amount of big budget movies having an Alexa 65 listed in the cameras it is shot on, along with an Alexa XT 2.8K camera. For example, the Revenant was well known as being an Alexa 65 shoot, but in reality I believe most of it was still shot on the XT. A couple other examples, Captain America: Civil War is listed on IMDB as "Some scenes" with the Alexa 65, and Deepwater Horizon is listed as "One scene" with the Alexa 65. It appears most of the scenes in those movies were shot with the XT from 2.8K.
 
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Eric Coughlin said:
Very essential when the client says, "We need 4K or we're not hiring you." Most of my clients still want 1080, but some of my clients insist on 4K, and yet still produce much lower quality content then 2.8K Hollywood Alexa films. There are plenty of people on DVXuser who can attest to clients requiring 4K, and many here get more requests for 4K than I personally do...
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Yes, I can absolutely agree with that. If the money says 4K (for whatever uninformed reason) then 4K it must be.

And I'd just quietly think to myself 'if 2K is good enough for Lord of the Rings, The Avengers, and Game of Thrones, it's good enough for your lame ass.' :)
 
The Netflix shows are generally not on the same level as big-budget motion pictures, but they have much higher budgets than corporate videos. That was my only point.

In fact, Netflix's Marco Polo was advertised as having a $90 million budget for the first season, which is nothing to scoff at. It was shot on the F55 and mastered in 4K (as I'm sure you well know).

Everyone has different requirements, but if I invest in a camera that costs $10K+ in 2016/17, I would expect at least the option for 4K60P output. I think Canon should have included it and easily could have. Were they protecting the C500, or was it truly a technical impediment? With Canon and Sony, you never know.

The Alexa 65 was previously just an experimental camera with very few bodies in the wild and exclusive access. It was barely used on The Revenant or Mission Impossible: Rogue Nation for example. ARRI actually manufactured and delivered more Alexa 65 cameras to the U.S. market in the last year to meet the high demand for upcoming productions.

More recently, the Alexa 65 was used as the main camera on Sully and the upcoming Star Wars anthology film Rogue One. Avengers: Infinity War and Blade Runner 2049 will also be shot on the Alexa 65. There are many other examples, but the point is that the Alexa 65 is becoming the new standard in big-budget digital filmmaking, especially when IMAX is involved.
 
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Kinok said:
The Netflix shows are generally not on the same level as big-budget motion pictures, but they have much higher budgets than corporate videos. That was my only point.
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Than most corporate videos, sure. But just for the heck of it, I'll mention that one 15 minute 70 million dollar budget "corporate video," well, Casino promo short film, directed by Martin Scorsese, starring Leonardo Di Carpiro, Robert De Niro, and Brad Pitt.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4016250/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_12

I actually finally just found a link on the web and watched it. Mediocre film.
 
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A lot of Alexa features nowadays is shot in "open gate" at 3.4K. From there, if the release requires it, the edited footage will be upres'ed (but, usually, not in camera). Major streamers require 4K as means of differentiation from the OTA networks' based 1080p programming. Very little of the network narrative programming is mastered in 4K, as the OTA delivery won't be 4K for a long time.

But everyone is beginning to cover their behinds for the time when 4K is delivered via streaming and the 4K label will need to be attached to everything.

PS. Alexa65 is almost two years old now. A new Hasselblad model will also shoot 4K in medium format.
 
Jim Martin said:
Deadliest is shooting 2K/1080 now.....C300 MK IIs, C100 MK IIs, and a few Sonys.....as far as I've been told by the production company, the 4K thing will be addressed next season...and it's crazy that Discovery wants 4K/60p for their tier one....most of their shows are reality based and for something like Deadliest, its ridiculous. They shoot a bazillion hours of footage and big boy 4K/60p is , is....the boat is going to sink from all the data!
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Discovery has always been ahead of the curve when it comes to formats, so it could be foreshadowing of what other networks will soon demand. 4K60P should not be too bad in a compressed format as in the FS7's XAVC-I, but if it's uncompressed RAW the boat will definitely sink!
 
DLD said:
A lot of Alexa features nowadays is shot in "open gate" at 3.4K. From there, if the release requires it, the edited footage will be upres'ed (but, usually, not in camera). Major streamers require 4K as means of differentiation from the OTA networks' based 1080p programming. Very little of the network narrative programming is mastered in 4K, as the OTA delivery won't be 4K for a long time.

But everyone is beginning to cover their behinds for the time when 4K is delivered via streaming and the 4K label will need to be attached to everything.

PS. Alexa65 is almost two years old now. A new Hasselblad model will also shoot 4K in medium format.
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The Alexa looks better when upres'd to 4K than some native 4K cameras, but that is not really the point. Networks and online providers that acquire 4K programming don't see it that way and such lists don't typically include the Alexa. This is precisely why ARRI has just released the Alexa SXT with 4K/UHD resolution and has offered an upgrade program for XT cameras.

As for the Alexa 65, it had a few cameos previously, but this last year has been its first as an A camera in major productions, a few of which I listed above. It is still a specialty camera with limited availability and is booked by productions at the top of the totem pole.

The Hasselblad H6D will be a great novelty, but no competition for the Alexa 65 or RED Weapon 8K VV. Hasselblad lenses, however, do have a place in 65mm production, so that will certainly continue.
 
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Would you say it is still good time to buy c100mkII or will its price drop significantly again once mkIII is announced?
 
If memory serves correct when I was at NAB a couple of years ago the Alexa 65 was renting for 9,000 per day...
 
KarlSutton said:
Would you say it is still good time to buy c100mkII or will its price drop significantly again once mkIII is announced?
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C100 MKII has already had a significant price drop. I would say that waiting means you might save a few more bucks, possibly, if Canon has a lot of MKIIs in the pipeline and at dealers but how much money will you lose if you are not shooting your MKII? Any? Or are you already set up with a camera that is making you money and you just want to upgrade because? Or are you a hobbyist? It was interesting to me that at the Canon Hollywood workshop on the C300 MKII I attended on Saturday, the instructor told us that the C300 MKII should have really been called the C600 or the C500 MKII, not the C300 MKII. At first I was skeptical but as the day went on and we explored all of the capabilities, I totally agreed with his assertion. The C300 MKII has vastly greater capabilities than the C300 MKI did, Canon called it the C300 MKII simply because the C300 MKI was a runaway sales hit.

I mention this because it is totally possible that the C100 MKIII may actually be more like a C200, a new model with vastly greater capability than the C100 MKII, but they may call it the C100 MKIII simply for marketing purposes. Personally, I think they should call it the C200 and leave the non 4K C100 MKI and MKII in the lineup as the 1080 cameras. Not everyone needs or wants 4K so keep them in the lineup and price them as cheap as they are now or less and bring out the C200 as the entry level 4K camera for $6k. Give 85% of the functionality of the C300 MKII, which will have dropped to $9,999.00 retail by then, but also give it a few cool features the C300 MKII doesn't have like detachable eyepice for people who want to fly it on a gimbal, possibly make the form factor like a miniature C700 for better shoulder mounting, etc. Save some of the high end features for just the C300 MKII like 12-bit 4:4:4 or even 120 fps windowed so that there is still product differentiation. Done. That would make sense and would really flesh out the uneven and sometimes weird product lineup for the EOS Cinema camera lineup.
 
puredrifting said:
Any thoughts? What would you go for if the C100 MKIII was $6,999.00 and the C300 MKII was $9,999.00?
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I think the Achilles Heel of the C300 is the weight for it's form factor. It's not easy to shoot handheld for long periods of time without rigging. So I'd say if the C100 MkIII comes in at a much lower weight that would be advantageous. Also a lower-bit rate 4K option. I'm interested in acquiring in 4K and delivering in 1080 30P. As such I don't need the 250 mb/s data rate. But I want 4K to grab photo-quality stills from and occasional reframing. Since I would be downsampling for video, I'm not too worried about compression artifacts. For me something like Sony's 100 mb/s option would let me capture 4K without blowing my storage requirements to smithereens. Shooting in 60P for acquisition would allow slow-motion in post without knowing what shots you are going to be slowing down in advanced.
 
Yeah, I've been waiting for a C100 Mark III to jump on it. I need the Dual Pixel AF for my next event video camera (loving it on my 1DX II) but the C300 II is a bit too much for my needs right now.
 
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