More AF100 footage...

I really recoil a bit with the notion of "give me a studio to make this camera look good".
I don't. It's what has to be done. You have to learn the product to get the best from it.

What I've seen here, searching for what's making some of this footage look so "video", is a lot of excessive edge enhancement. Dark ghosting at areas of high contrast, as though the detail or edge enhancement were much too high.
The edge enhancement does seem stronger on this unit than on prior units. Maybe it's the nature of having so much shallower DOF, that the edge enhancement stands out more. I originally told Philip Bloom to go with -2 on detail, based on my prior experience, but with some testing that night I found that I preferred -4 and advised him such. Which says to me, that yes, you do have to tame the detail circuit to get better performance from the camera.

Which, incidentally, is exactly the kind of thing you learn when you spend a day in the studio with charts and lights, profiling the camera to learn what it does, and how you like it. That's what every cinematographer does, with every new camera (or, well, they should). That's what everyone does when Kodak introduces a new film stock -- or, at least, they rely on someone qualified to do it. Look up the film tests in American Cinematographer -- whenever a new stock comes out they shoot the living hell out of it, in every imaginable combination, at every possible level of over and underexposure, to find out how it responds. That's what you have to do with digital cameras too.

What really concerns me now, is that this footage was shot, commissioned by Panasonic Europe, to show the virtues of the camera presumably. But I found a lot of the feel very cold and harsh. It seems a little under-saturated, though. Hope it's the lens or settings or both. Since this was done for Panasonic, is this the best Panasonic thinks this camera will do? (btw - I know it was done for them as I asked the person who posted it for lens and settings, and he told me he didn't do it, Panasonic had it done.)
The way I heard it, they had about five hours total. The panasonic factory shipped the camera to Amsterdam for the IBC show. They had a layover in Frankfurt. Panasonic Germany found out about it, and asked these guys to shoot during that layover before the camera went forward to Amsterdam.

This was not some pre-planned, layed-out, "let's get the very best footage in the universe" thing. This was working under the schedule of the engineers who were trying to get the very first barely-functional prototype out of the factory, and then handing it over to the guys who shot it, who took it exactly as it was because they had no time or opportunity to properly profile the camera.

I know everyone's disappointed with how the launch has been handled, and we all wish that they had conducted it more like how Sony has -- commissioning professionally-shot film-style stuff, right from the get-go. That's not how this launch has happened. But it also is no reflection on what the ultimate quality this unit will be capable of. I think Panasonic has learned a few lessons about this, or at least I hope they have, and that they never allow any footage out again unless it's absolutely representative of the best their camera can do, because that's the standard that internet viewers are going to hold it to.

It's not all that long ago that the first footage in the world from the DVX100 was from the show floor at the WEVA convention, where I shot some trains circling a track. That's how the DVX was launched. People's expectations have changed dramatically since then, probably because of "Reverie". Panasonic hasn't managed this properly, in my opinion. But there will be good-quality footage coming soon.
 
Umm, I don't know about Leo... but I really like to learn a camera under controlled studio conditions first. I find it easier to figure out what each menu option does on the camera and how they interact when all the other variables are under as tight a control as possible. So I'm intending to take my AF100 into the studio for a day first, figure out how to make a model* look great on a white infinity cove or a black studio corner. Then figure out how those settings interact when I put her in front of a window, or in a room set. Then figure out how it all looks with natural light in the rest of the house, then figure out how it all looks in the garden (weather permitting).

Once I've played with as many settings as I can and looked at all the footage in full size on a decent monitor, I will begin to see how to use the camera to shoot the sort of stuff I like to shoot.
Exactly. I don't really understand how anyone would work any other way.
 
That's how the DVX was launched. People's expectations have changed dramatically since then, probably because of "Reverie". Panasonic hasn't managed this properly, in my opinion.

I don't know. I think if they made a mistake, it was only giving you guys so little time to shoot with it in Japan. They should have made it a five day event or something like that. That would give people a couple of days of testing and a few days of shooting which would have been more than Laforet had to do Reverie, but he did sink $5K of his own money into Reverie. I think it was definitely cool to bring KOL's out to shoot in Japan. Just give them more time. Why not bring four KOL's out, give them a budget of $5K a piece for a week. I mean Canon forked over $40K for "The Last Three Minutes" that ASC Shane Hurlbut shot. Spending $20K for four KOL's to shoot four shorts would seem very beneficial for Panasonic to have these high quality shorts kicking around the web for a couple of months before release.
 
Originally Posted by yoclay And what's with that awful matte of the camera and lenses at the end?
Is this actually an advertisement for Panasonic?


That was the footage that was shown in the IBC booth. It was the first footage shot by anyone, anywhere. It wasn't an ad, but they probably put the panasonic name in it because it was being shown in the booth.

I asked Jaume, who uploaded this video, and who shot the Farmer's Market video:

"I am sorry but I do not know which lens was used for this production.
It is produced by Panasonic Broadcast Europe, not me.
It was a pre-production camera, because it was made almost two months ago.
Kind regards from Barcelona"
 
Barry, I totally agree with you about using a studio to fine tune camera settings, no doubt about it. I meant that I recoil from the notion that shortcoming in footage like this dance group in the warehouse is because it was not properly lit in a studio. I think my HVX/Letus would have looked very nice with that mostly indirect soft light from side window sources.

Yes, if that's how they had to shoot this, they were under even more extreme constraints and more in the dark than you guys were in Japan. Crazy.

On the edge enhancement, which I will try to post later this evening, I don't think it's a case of shallower DOF. It makes me think this camera could use another 2 or 3 months being tweaked by the engineers, if the factory settings are that ham-fisted. I hope the user settings will allow us to eliminate problems like that. That kind of edge noise just shouldn't be there in my opinion.

Initially, I was alright with this unconventional approach by Panasonic to allow this footage out. Now I see it was a mistake. We simply need to see the absolute BEST this camera can do, with the very best equipment, to know what the camera is at least capable of producing, should we as customers choose to do so. That way, we know the option to achieve it is at least there. Otherwise, we simply get a lot of frustrating speculation and guessing that the product will perform to a certain level, without truly being able to see it in a definitive and repeatable way.
 
I don't know. I think if they made a mistake, it was only giving you guys so little time to shoot with it in Japan. They should have made it a five day event or something like that. That would give people a couple of days of testing and a few days of shooting which would have been more than Laforet had to do Reverie, but he did sink $5K of his own money into Reverie. I think it was definitely cool to bring KOL's out to shoot in Japan. Just give them more time. Why not bring four KOL's out, give them a budget of $5K a piece for a week. I mean Canon forked over $40K for "The Last Three Minutes" that ASC Shane Hurlbut shot. Spending $20K for four KOL's to shoot four shorts would seem very beneficial for Panasonic to have these high quality shorts kicking around the web for a couple of months before release.
Agreed 1,000%. I didn't know Canon put up the money for The Last Three Minutes... but yeah, if launching a cinema-oriented camera, it needs to be shot cinema-style. I have made this point to them, and hopefully future launches will be more oriented towards showing our membership the kind of things they want to see/expect to see.
 
Barry, I totally agree with you about using a studio to fine tune camera settings, no doubt about it. I meant that I recoil from the notion that shortcoming in footage like this dance group in the warehouse is because it was not properly lit in a studio. I think my HVX/Letus would have looked very nice with that mostly indirect soft light from side window sources.
And, had it been properly profiled, they probably could have made it look even better than it does. But it's pretty good-looking footage as-is.

Yes, if that's how they had to shoot this, they were under even more extreme constraints and more in the dark than you guys were in Japan. Crazy.
Yes, and while I may have "misremembered" some of the details, this is the way I remember it being reported to me.

On the edge enhancement, which I will try to post later this evening, I don't think it's a case of shallower DOF. It makes me think this camera could use another 2 or 3 months being tweaked by the engineers, if the factory settings are that ham-fisted. I hope the user settings will allow us to eliminate problems like that. That kind of edge noise just shouldn't be there in my opinion.
Which is the kind of thing profiling would eliminate. And keep in mind -- that footage is from over two months ago. Yes it just got posted, but it was shot in September. The engineers have since had those had 2 to 3 months to tweak it!

Initially, I was alright with this unconventional approach by Panasonic to allow this footage out. Now I see it was a mistake. We simply need to see the absolute BEST this camera can do, with the very best equipment, to know what the camera is at least capable of producing, should we as customers choose to do so. That way, we know the option to achieve it is at least there. Otherwise, we simply get a lot of frustrating speculation and guessing that the product will perform to a certain level, without truly being able to see it in a definitive and repeatable way.
Yep. Totally agreed, releasing any footage other than professionally-produced stuff was a mistake. I don't think they should ever do that again. They should disable the card slots so nobody can shoot trade-show-floor footage when it goes out to trade shows. Too much stock is put into what people show, and the other guys aren't just letting random stuff get posted. No matter how big the clamoring is for footage, no matter how many people insinuate that they must be "embarrassed" or "afraid" to let footage out, they should issue a firm policy saying "we will release no footage before its time", just like Orson Welles used to say.
 
Laforet's Reverie sold thousands of Canon 5DII cameras. The piece was conceived and executed to take advantages of the 5D's strengths and to hide it's weaknesses, exactly what a good marketing piece should do. It gave prospective buyers the confidence that they too could produce stunning films with a small, inexpensive camera and the rest was history.

Panasonic, by contrast, used people unfamiliar with the camera, shooting from the hip under unworkable time constraints and uncontrolled circumstances; exactly the polar opposite of the camera's intended use.

Panasonic is going to sell the AF100 in dizzying numbers because there is really nothing else like it for anywhere near the money and soon after release, some brilliant people are going to shoot spectacular stuff with it that will burn up Youtube, so they will recover from this stumble, but this has been a bit of a buzz-kill.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo
 
Laforet's Reverie sold thousands of Canon 5DII cameras. The piece was conceived and executed to take advantages of the 5D's strengths and to hide it's weaknesses, exactly what a good marketing piece should do. It gave prospective buyers the confidence that they too could produce stunning films with a small, inexpensive camera and the rest was history.

Panasonic, by contrast, used people unfamiliar with the camera, shooting from the hip under unworkable time constraints and uncontrolled circumstances; exactly the polar opposite of the camera's intended use.

Panasonic is going to sell the AF100 in dizzying numbers because there is really nothing else like it for anywhere near the money and soon after release, some brilliant people are going to shoot spectacular stuff with it that will burn up Youtube, so they will recover from this stumble, but this has been a bit of a buzz-kill.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo


To be fair, Laforet had no idea what the strengths and weaknesses were of the 5DII when he shot with it. He was stating things in his blog before the camera was released that it could do that it couldn't. He didn't even have a manual. There wasn't all the conventional wisdom and guidelines about the 5D that there is at this time. He picked up the cam from Canon and was given a very short period to return it. Talk about shooting from the hip, Reverie was a completely point and shoot endeavor all on auto. The camera's overall aesthetic was just amazing even under those circumstances. It's all incredible LIGHTING. Which again makes the point, it's not the camera but the lighting that counts. Point a camera at a well lit scene by a good photographer and it will shine. For that matter, give me a window with natural light and a reflector for some fill, and I'll show you a bit of magic.

I think what the 5D brought was a incredible low light sensitivity so while you still needed light, you just didn't need as much.
 
Panasonic is going to sell the AF100 in dizzying numbers because there is really nothing else like it for anywhere near the money and soon after release, some brilliant people are going to shoot spectacular stuff with it that will burn up Youtube, so they will recover from this stumble
I believe this is exactly what's going to happen.

In fact, let's go to The Four Stages of Camcorder Release, something I first posted here maybe two or three years ago, and revisited a year and a half ago when the GH1 was first introduced, but it goes like this:
Kholi reminded me (probably even in this thread) that I once pointed out that every camcorder release goes through the following stages:

When It's First Announced:
"Oh my Gosh I cannot WAIT this is THE ONE!!!11!11!!!!"

First Footage:
"THIS IS THE ROXXOR!!! I CANNOT WAIT! FINALLY I can now make my MASTERPIECE! Look out, HOllywood!!!"

The General Public gets their hands on it:
"What the hell is wrong with this? Look at this -- this is awful. Look at this intolerable issue ("noise", "split screen", "jello", "skew", "rolling shutter", "vignetting", whatever). Canon/JVC/Panasonic/Red/Sony, HOW could you DO THIS to us? We should start a class-action lawsuit."

Macgregor or Disjecta get their hands on it:
"HOLEY MOLEY! WOW, now THAT's what I'm talking about! This is the holy grail of all cameras again!"

Eventually people learn how to work with it and get great results from it, and those who are in business settle down to turn out fantastic work with whichever tool they've chosen to buy. And those who don't work, but just dream? Oh, they're onto stage 1 of the cycle with the NEXT great announcement (D90, GH1, Scarlet, 5D Mk II, take your pick...)

Seems like the AF100 has already gone through stage 1, then it looks like we swapped stage 2 and stage 3 around; the AF100 is currently stuck in stage 3 (only this time it's "highlight clipping"). Now we're waiting for the proper stage 2 to hit.

And people are already on Stage 1 of the "next great thing" -- only this time, it's 5D Mark III, NXCAM, and ... comically, still the Scarlet!
 
Give me a day or so in the studio with my charts and a model to play with the settings and I should be ready to rock.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

Can't wait to see what you come up with! Leo, thanks so much for contributing to this forum. I can learn from all of your posts.
 
I think that Reverie and the 5D2 can't compare to the launch videos from a video camera like the AF100. The thing is with the 5D2 it looks excellent on it's own and in hands of a skilled photographer and used with proper lighting it will look great 99% of time. It's a flawed image yes but it looks so great thanks to Canons know-how in still cameras and since you just tap that sensor to HD video it will look as great as stills from this camera, but with technical flaws.

What the AF camera is it's a video camera. It does not have the same gorgeous image to start with as the 5D2. But it does manage to produce a very nice technical image with little flaws. Why has 5D2 got such a buzz? Because it just looks so darn good to start with. That's what I felt when I first got my D90. That this was something else than what I have ever got from a video camera. The 5D2 came and was so much better than the D90. It really was a camera before it's time in some respects. Why are there so many DOP used to shoot with higher-end cameras that turned to the 5D2? It wasn't that flawed image but the gorgeous stuff it could produce. And they could buy one, two or several cameras and get to know them really well.

I never expect the AF to ever compete with image gorgeousness but it will beat the 5D2 and other DSLR cameras in most technical aspects.

To look at test footage from the AF on a computer is just not doing it justice. Anyone should watch it on a proper display, be it plasma, big screen or LCD. In some of the shots from both Filippo and Philip on such a proper screen it looks very natural. Most shoots are medium to close that looks great but very few has as short DOF as shown in the Sony F3 demo or Reverie. What a boost Panasonic could have given the AF just doing the right kind of test/show-off footage.

As Barry stated, we will go through all the stages and end up with a very nice camera. A blend between a HVX/HMC and 7D really and this was what we all asked for a year ago!

BTW, there is one wide shot in the F3 footage that looks really bad. Deep DOF and over exposed and it looks worse than any shot from the AF I've seen. I wish they could just release the camera so all that great footage would appear on vimeo and the tube.
 
I thought the footage was good. Like with the other footage it did not turn me off but it did not make me go WOW I need to pre-order it now. I am taking the patient approach, when its here I will take a look at it in my hands and see what is what for me.
 
I think people should just wait until the AF100 is put through its paces by folks who know how to use it. Any speculation until then is stirring up noise but isn't relevant to what the actual product will actually do, in competent hands. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- give us a couple more weeks and all questions should be answered.
 
I think people should just wait until the AF100 is put through its paces by folks who know how to use it. Any speculation until then is stirring up noise but isn't relevant to what the actual product will actually do, in competent hands. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- give us a couple more weeks and all questions should be answered.

BUT THIS REQUIRES WAITING!!!!

Which apparently no one can do these days... Lol
 
BUT THIS REQUIRES WAITING!!!!

Which apparently no one can do these days... Lol
Understood, but it's pointless to do otherwise.

May I remind folks that this camera is on the same release target as the HVX200 was, and the very first footage in the world anyone ever saw from the HVX200 was released December 8th. So by HVX standards, it's not waiting at all.
 
I have no problem waiting mostly because I do not plan to buy a new rig until next year anyway. The problem with some people is that they spend too much time on here, picking every little thing apart. I used to be one of those guys but now with a steady 9 to 5 doing video and my side projects I don't have the time. And that is a good thing keeping busy makes the days go faster till the camera gets here. But as I said earlier I find that actually handling the camera to be the best way to decide for me.
 
I think people should just wait until the AF100 is put through its paces by folks who know how to use it. Any speculation until then is stirring up noise but isn't relevant to what the actual product will actually do, in competent hands.

The S/N ratio here is getting pretty dismal, isn't it Barry? :happy:

So none of these "tests" have been perfect, nor approached the inspiring Reverie.
Yet the common thread of all the tests (including the "Frankfurt layover" of this latest, yet first video) is:
Nearly every video seems to have been shot within hours (or a day) of taking it out of the box:
1. Get the camera
2. Turn it on
3. Play around with the settings for a few minutes, maybe an hour or two?
4. Go to an uncontrolled setting- Alfa Romeo track, Japanese park, Theater warehouse, Spanish market (or a very rushed model shoot, with little time for pre tests).
5. Start shooting
6. Edit/upload video for the world to see, return camera.

Yes Laforet shot Reverie with little to zero pre-existing knowledge of the 5DII.
But, how likely is it that he:
• Rented a helicopter, mounted the camera on it.
• Set up a car mount.
• Lit a scene under the Brooklyn Bridge, etc, etc...
... without doing tests? Without going through the Picture Profiles extensively?
No shoot/screen/assess, shoot/screen/assess, shoot/screen/assess?

I'm not an apologist for all that is Panasonic, and I'm not saying the AF100 has the buttery look the 5D does.
All I'm saying is look at the conditions of the AF100 tests.
And look forward to extensive testing (from amateurs to experts) upon its release.

And (here's the key part)- if you don't like it, don't buy it! (= noise reduction). :thumbsup:
 
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