Live Opera audio for video

W

Wilshireblvd

Active member
I may (haven't taken the job yet) film a small-scale opera in a 500 seat auditorium this weekend. It's just a one cam shoot...really just documenting the performance. I'm wondering what's going to get me the best results for audio. I have 3 ideas:

1 - Plug in to the sound via XLR cable

2 - Record live sound with a placed shotgun mic close to the stage

3 - Record live sound from onboard mic (I'm using a Sony EX1)

Any ideas as to which ONE of these is going to give me the best results? Thanks!
 
1. best choice in your situation except who knows what they will actually put through the house system. Could just be music, no voice, or could just be spot mics no music..could be a lot of things.
And, 9 times out of 10 house systems are going to be a mess with ground loops, buzz.. bad signal to noise levels.

2. you're never going to be able to cover an entire stage, music, crowd with 1 shotgun.

3. blah

4. you're not gonna wanna hear it but in this situation i'd hire a sound mixer w/ gear

If its purely for "documenting" then sound quality doesnt matter and just use
the onboard mic. If its anything more you're not going to get it with your 3 choices.
 
Yeah...it's not the best situation!:(

It's really kind of a favor I'm (considering) doing for someone so there's NO budget. I'm open to 'creative' ideas. Plus, live stuff is not my background. Oh well...thanks for the suggestions.
 
well if you can get a hold of 2 cardioids i'd put them in a simple X/Y pattern
10 ft in the air (try to get them above the audience as much as possible)

center stage about 2/3's of the way back (or slightly closer if the room sucks)

if I only had 2 mics and 2 tracks to play with thats what I would do personally.
 
What I would do is talk to the artistic director or the stage manager and ask them where the sweet spot is in the auditorium that they are performing in. With opera, they will know. Set your mic(s) there. For example, the sweet spot in the War Memorial Opera House in San Francisco is up in the third balcony (while the view is mostly the tops of the talent's heads, the sound is amazing). So, set your mics in the sweet spot and then shoot from wherever is best for viewing. Either run an XLR (potentially a long run) or record double system and sync in post.

Phil
 
Recording a ballanced line from the sound reinforcement mixer may provide you with a nice clean and dry sound, but you'll be entirely dependant on the sound reinforcement mixer. They'll have plenty of things to worry about already, so you'd better have a backup plan. You could well pick up all sorts of nasty hums and buzzes, and the mix will generally be tailored to sound reinforcement rather than to the needs of video.

However, Phil's reccomendation of an X-Y pair in the venue's sweet spot would give you full control over your tracks. It would also give you a richer, more lively sound than your likely to get from a PA mix, with the important addition of audience reaction.

For the best of both worlds bring along the X-Y pair (or perhaps a Rode NT-4) with shock-mounts, a vertatile mounting clamp and bracket (eg. an EZ clamp with a stereo bar), a good pair of monitoring headphones (eg. Sony MDR-7506), a 3-channel mixer (eg. SD302, Shure FP33), any neccessary adapters and patch cords (check with the sound reinforcement mixer ahead of time), a couple rolls of gaffer tape, and plenty of XLR cables (at least twice what you think you'll need). An eager assistant or two couldn't hurt, either. Run the sweet-spot X-Y mics into the mixer panned hard left and hard right, and run the dry feed from the house right down the middle. Mixing on headphones can be tricky, especially since the three channels are being folded down into a stereo track. The stereo pair will likely be doing most of the heavy lifting, with a bit of the house feed mixed into the center to enhance articulation.

An alternate option would be to rent a portable recorder instead of the mixer, and record the house line into your camera and the mics into the recorder. This would give you the considerable advantage of being able to adjust the mix in post, but you would be obliged to monitor one feed (probably the recorder) while hoping for the best with the other machine.

In either scenario, you can drop the house line if it starts acting up.
 
question. Do people even read other peoples posts before posting?


And I definitely disagree mixing spot mic's that could be 30ft back and a direct pa feed, if they are picking up mostly the same things.
You're doing nothing but asking for phasing issues and a mess.


If anything the pa feed should be doing the "heavy lifting" and the x/y just to fill in a bit of ambience.
 
If it's any half-way decent opera, there is no true sound reinforcement - at best a feed for the infra-red listening devices for those that are hard of hearing.

Phil
 
I tell you what I use for chamber music concerts in a good sized theatre. I use a pair of Oktava's (cardioid) on stands at the edges of the stage on the lip. About 8' or so up aimed to cross center of the performance area. Now you would have to go farther out because of the orchestra pit. You don't have to wory about phase issues if your recording stereo and playing back stereo. Personally I don't wory about some idiot playing back in mono. I don't think there is much real issue with that. NOBODY has mono sound systems and pretty much nobody has mono TV systems and your not playing on AM radio. IF your recording with more mics then you do have to worry about phase when you mix them down. But that can be fixed in post if it's an issue (assuming you don't do a live mixdown, in which you again have to worry). Don't use shotguns.
 
Wilshireblvd said:
I may (haven't taken the job yet) film a small-scale opera in a 500 seat auditorium this weekend. It's just a one cam shoot...really just documenting the performance. I'm wondering what's going to get me the best results for audio. I have 3 ideas:

1 - Plug in to the sound via XLR cable

2 - Record live sound with a placed shotgun mic close to the stage

3 - Record live sound from onboard mic (I'm using a Sony EX1)

Any ideas as to which ONE of these is going to give me the best results? Thanks!
Click to expand...

None of your proposals is very good.

Opera is normally sung without any PA, so there would be no sound system to plug in to.

I would suggest a pair of slung omnis - maybe with a Jecklin Disk.

Alternatively an ORTF pair of cardioids, or an MS pair of cardioid + fig.8.

I recorded opera with spaced omnis at Glyndebourne and an MS pair in St. John's Smith Square in London.
 
John, I think you have the best solution. Most opera singers have a huge dynamic range; much greater than good recording gear and much, much greater than the audio section on a camera. You may need to ride gain and you'll need a mixer for that.

If I were you, I'd take your gear to the space during a rehearsal to get a handle on the volume. They may well not have any PA.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
I would think a spaced pair would have too wide of a stereo spread
as the only 2 mic's. If someone was walking on stage from one side of the other I wouldnt want an exaggerated difference between L and R.
Summing those 2 would have issues. (especially if this person recording it doesnt understand phasing.)

But hey, thats just my opinion.
 
Rippie said:
I would think a spaced pair would have too wide of a stereo spread
as the only 2 mic's. If someone was walking on stage from one side of the other I wouldnt want an exaggerated difference between L and R.
Summing those 2 would have issues. (especially if this person recording it doesnt understand phasing.)

But hey, thats just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think your replying to my post?
So.

Yes the standard thinking is that your trying to imitate the hearing of a person in the audience and that summing to mono is an issue.
I think both are wrong assumptions today. Just to be clear I'm not stating some great truth just an opinion. But recording like someone's ears only makes sense if your only going to play back on headphones. Since most people are going to listen listen on speakers (this of course depends on what it is your recording but chamber music, opera, filmed anything is going to be mostly on speakers). You should logically then place mics at where the speakers would be since those are the points you are going to reproduce from. This does produce a wide image, just as a live stage produces a wide image. One could get too wide I suppose but as long as your playing back on speakers your only as wide as your speakers are. On headphones it does seem wide but I actually like it, but maybe that's just me. Recording in a traditional close pair produces an unnaturally narrow image especially on speakers. I have A/B'd the two set ups and the wide pair is a lot more open and "natural" sounding. BUT I don't know of other people doing this so... I took to calling it SOSR (Speaker Oriented Stereo Recording).

As to mono. Where is this going to play in mono? It used to be an issue for pop music because of AM radio and broadcast because of mono TV's. But today maybe 5% at most of the public has a mono TV and all shows are broadcast in at least stereo. There is essentially no danger of these recordings ending up on AM radio and you cant even buy a mono home "stereo" system. So mono compatibility is 99% a non issue and with a few seconds though you should be able to decide if your in a 1% situation. Also the phase issue could be corrected in post if it did become an issue at some point down the line. If I knew I was going mono I would record mono, otherwise I don't worry much about phase issues with stereo recordings.
Phase does become an issue when your doing a multi mic recording that will need to get mixed down later. But normally that is also planned to be fixed in post. If your recording a band with a bunch of mics you will have phase problems unless everything is isolated. And you will have to deal with it in post because in a live situation too much is going to change during the show. So again it's really not that big an issue in production.

Anyway those are my thoughts on the issues. Feedback on the recordings I have done this way have been universally positive. The NEA specifically mentioned the quality of the recordings in giving a grant to a chamber music group that I do recordings for. It's certainly not the only way and it might not even be the best way but all of the "big issues" that this system should in theory have, have not been a problem.

For the opera I can see one problem with being too close to the stage with a wide pair and that is the varying proximity of the performers to the mic's. With the chamber music I have the advantage of pretty static performance positions. Stage edge placement for opera would probably be too close, my guess is you would want to be 10 feet or so off the stage lip.
 
So in "your opinion"..you think its ok that if a home theater has its speakers 8ft apart
that it wouldnt be distracting if the "actor" on stage is walking the length of the stage
and their voice goes hard left or hard right (not totally)?
I would find that very distracting.

As far as mono goes, for someone who knows what they are doing you can obviously do stereo recordings that are just fine summed. In my post I mentioned i dont think
the original poster is quite to that level of audio.

But I disagree that being "mono compatible" isnt relevant.
If a simple home theater is set at dolby and a stereo source is being played it sums it
to the center. (least in the last 2 onkyo receivers ive owned)

There are a bunch of other situations where mono compatibility is important.
How many times has a post editor summed audio tracks that were recorded split? Only to sound like a phasy mess,
or the station feeding the signal done the same. By no means am I saying to record in mono, im saying to mantain mono compatibility.
My point was once again, if you know what you're doing..sure spaced pairs are fine,
but if you dont they will get messy.
A simple X/Y is going to be mono safe and still give a decent stereo signal (audience, music)
but it wont be so harsh when the actor moves. (yes it of course will still be noticable..just not as bad)

Once again, hey..just my opinion, but I wanted to state it clearer.
You've stated yours.

oh, and i actually wasnt responding to any post in particular.
 
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Rippie said:
I would think a spaced pair would have too wide of a stereo spread as the only 2 mic's.
Click to expand...

Not at all.

John Barnes at Glyndebourne used to record with just a pair of omnis hung from the lighting gallery on many occasions.

I have recorded opera in St. John's Smith Square with just an MS pair. And MS, of course, is fully mono compatible.

The art is in getting the mics at the correct distance from the stage.
 
John Willett said:
Not at all.

John Barnes at Glyndebourne used to record with just a pair of omnis hung from the lighting gallery on many occasions.

I have recorded opera in St. John's Smith Square with just an MS pair. And MS, of course, is fully mono compatible.

The art is in getting the mics at the correct distance from the stage.
Click to expand...
i meant for this situation.
I do space pairs all the time. I wasnt refering to MS?!?


I was trying to keep things simple for the original poster.
I doubt he has access to fig 8 mics, and then to even deal with it...etc.


Sure given unlimited tools there are 100 different ways of going about this, some people will think "their" way is the "right" way. (myself included)
but remember, this person has zero budget, and I thought I was already stretching it with him trying to get
2 easily accessible cardioid mics, and I truly doubt he is going to be hanging mics as well.
 
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Rippie said:
i meant for this situation.
I do space pairs all the time. I wasnt refering to MS?!?


I was trying to keep things simple for the original poster.
I doubt he has access to fig 8 mics, and then to even deal with it...etc.


Sure given unlimited tools there are 100 different ways of going about this, some people will think "their" way is the "right" way. (myself included)
but remember, this person has zero budget, and I thought I was already stretching it with him trying to get
2 easily accessible cardioid mics, and I truly doubt he is going to be hanging mics as well.
Click to expand...

I *did* mention an ORTF cardioid pair earlier.

And hanging is probably the only practical way of doing it, as it gets the mics up and out of the way of both the audience and the video cameras.

Hanging's not difficult - I just went along to the local boat chandler by the river and bought myself some non-stretch rope.
 
So in "your opinion"..you think its ok that if a home theater has its speakers 8ft apart
that it wouldnt be distracting if the "actor" on stage is walking the length of the stage
and their voice goes hard left or hard right (not totally)?
I would find that very distracting.
Click to expand...


Now lets be fair I said that might be a problem with this production and I said I would back up into the audience to mitigate that. But if you have seen any opera, they don't usually go that far from center when singing.


But I disagree that being "mono compatible" isnt relevant.
If a simple home theater is set at dolby and a stereo source is being played it sums it
to the center. (least in the last 2 onkyo receivers ive owned)
Click to expand...

I would return those systems. So when you play a CD in your system it comes out mono?

There are a bunch of other situations where mono compatibility is important.
How many times has a post editor summed audio tracks that were recorded split? Only to sound like a phasy mess,
Click to expand...

Well pretty much never. Other than BG's most things are used as mono. Nobody (well nobody in the studios I've worked) sums to mono. The industry standard is to use the left channel. If you can't figure out how to fix a phase issue in post you shouldn't be in post. Sorry that came out a little nasty but if an editor of mine turned in a "phasey mess" it would be the last time I hired them.

By no means am I saying to record in mono, im saying to mantain mono compatibility.
My point was once again, if you know what you're doing..sure spaced pairs are fine,
but if you dont they will get messy.
Click to expand...

We just disagree on this. 99% of the time nothing is ever going to get mono playback.

A simple X/Y is going to be mono safe and still give a decent stereo signal (audience, music)
but it wont be so harsh when the actor moves. (yes it of course will still be noticable..just not as bad)
Click to expand...

Sort of agree. If the actor gets far away from center you will loose them, you will get a very center focused image. But again this is an opera not a stage play.

Once again, hey..just my opinion, but I wanted to state it clearer.
You've stated yours.
Click to expand...

Yes and yours is no less valid than mine. We are each speaking from our own experiences and both trying to help the poster.

oh, and i actually wasnt responding to any post in particular.
Click to expand...

cool. I thought I was the one that brought up wide spaced pairs so ...
 
John Willett said:
And hanging is probably the only practical way of doing it, as it gets the mics up and out of the way of both the audience and the video cameras.

Hanging's not difficult - I just went along to the local boat chandler by the river and bought myself some non-stretch rope.
Click to expand...

There is one huge drawback to hanging in a fly house and that is the reverb in the fly loft. There are others like proximity to the lights etc. But hanging can be a good choice and is all too often the only choice. As a rule it is not the best sounding choice. But as much as I hate to say it, the best sounding choice isn't always the "best" choice.

Also hanging pairs have all the potential problem as a wide spaced pair. Except sight line issues.
 
Noiz2 said:
There is one huge drawback to hanging in a fly house and that is the reverb in the fly loft.
Click to expand...

I did not say anything about hanging in the fly loft - this is a horrible place to put mics.

I meant hanging the microphones over the audience a few rows back.
 
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