Live Opera audio for video
- Thread starter Wilshireblvd
- Start date
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Maybe it's a language thing.
When you said "lighting gallery" I thought you meant Grid. What your talking about over here would the catwalks. I have my doubts about omnis that far from the stage. And to be a bit more generalized I have found drop mics to have a huge amount of room on them unless your really close and if your really close your over the stage and probably picking up the fly loft. I have seen folks use hypers or shotguns from the catwalks. I would probably like that a bit more than omni's but?
John Willett
Veteran
It actually worked extremely well - I think the catwalk was above the third or forth row of the stalls.
This is an opera house full of people, to there will be a lot of absorption there.
Wilshireblvd
Active member
Just to follow up...I did go ahead and do it, but informed them that as this was a favor, I could not invest in setting up sound...that I was going to do it with the onboard mic. I did find out they were recording it...so I'm going to get ahold of that and lay that track down with the video. However, I must say I'm REALLY surprised with the quality my EX-1 got from its stereo mic. I was about 3/4 of the way back and my DOF was reading around 50 to 60 feet, and though the audio does not sound professional, it is certainly not horrible...it's pretty good actually. Still going to use the mixed track (assuming it's better), but thought this was an interesting tidbit to share. Thanks for all the suggestions.
Sound Chaser
Active member
Late to the discussion but....
Late to the discussion but....
"Natural" concert recording can be a really simple thing.
Most people are intimidated by it, but some of the best solutions are the simplest.
If the concert sounds good right there in your seat then it's hard to beat a matched stereo cardioid XY pair. There are no phase issues, the dynamics are natural, coverage is good and the recording can become almost as good as you hear it. Plus you have the option to tweak it in post.
I have recorded the Toronto Symphony and Wynton Marsalis this way with decent results, albeit in a great sounding hall....Massey Hall, Toronto.
My favorite mics for this techniques are yes...the humble Oktava MK102 large diaphram capsules--the same capsules they use on their flagship tube mic. Amazing warm sound. I prefer them to my U87's which are $4,000 a piece!
Late to the discussion but....
"Natural" concert recording can be a really simple thing.
Most people are intimidated by it, but some of the best solutions are the simplest.
If the concert sounds good right there in your seat then it's hard to beat a matched stereo cardioid XY pair. There are no phase issues, the dynamics are natural, coverage is good and the recording can become almost as good as you hear it. Plus you have the option to tweak it in post.
I have recorded the Toronto Symphony and Wynton Marsalis this way with decent results, albeit in a great sounding hall....Massey Hall, Toronto.
My favorite mics for this techniques are yes...the humble Oktava MK102 large diaphram capsules--the same capsules they use on their flagship tube mic. Amazing warm sound. I prefer them to my U87's which are $4,000 a piece!
Sound Chaser
Active member
You just proved my point...
You just proved my point...
You just proved my point...
If the result you got was fairly good with a cheap mic 60' back. Think of the quality you could get with the $800. (pr) matched Oktava's would give you in the perfect placement.
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ullanta
Veteran
Well, it's too late for the original poster, but as someone who makes a healthy percentage of his living recording operas, I wanted to drop a few comments for anyone else thinking about this, which I think were missed in this discussion:
1. Opera folks in general are highly averse to any visible mics. At a decent opera, you won't be putting any mics anywhere where they're noticeable. That means no coincident pair center stage anywhere between the floor and the supertitles/top curtain, etc. You may be able to put a pair at about stage height, or on the outer lip of the orchestra pit if they're low. Boundary mics on the inner lip of the pit do a good job of picking up the singers; on the outer lip of the pit, in some places, they can be a decent compromise between orchestra and singers (though the orchestra will be a tad muffled). A spaced pair of cardioids, placed low, on the audience side of the pit can do a surprisingly good job in a pinch - aim at the singers' mouth level.
2. If there are complex sets or lighting, hanging mics can be a big problem, especially if you don't work it out with the technical director and lighting folks weeks before the show. Not something to count on.
3. Ideally, you want at least four channels - a stereo recording of the orchestra in the pit, and a stereo recording of the singers, as separate as possible. For a good mix, you'll want to adjust the level of the singers A LOT, as they move around the stage and sing pieces at different levels (you don't want to adjust much within a piece... try preserve the relative dynamic range within pieces). You DON'T want to dfo so much adjustment to the orchestra.. it's relative dynamics are steady, and it doesn't move around relative to the mics. Musicians will hate a recording where weird things happen to the orchestra levels because the singers change in level.
4. (I typically use a fairly minimal recording setup of about 15 mics, recorded multitrack. For very small operas or quick setup, often two-three directional boundary mics on stage, two-three mics for the orchestra, one or two for the audience if possible).
5. Placing head-like mics at a good listening position in the audience will give you something similar to (but not as good as) the actual experience of "being there" - including coughs, paper rustles, whispers, etc. When this is done professionally for, e.g., binaural opera recordings, it's done in a special session WITHOUT and audience... or with a fake one. I personally also tend to find ANY "audience perspective" recordings to sound too distant for my tastes.
6. Noiz - I heartily agree with you on the mono issue. I also tend not to worry about it; and I find recordings with spaced pairs tend to sound better, warmer, and more natural, even if not as "precise". I vote for "more likeable" over "clinically accurate" every time! Unfortunately, in the mathematical world of AES papers on mic techniques, precision is all they've got to go on, which I think has historically caused some damage.
7. Given a decent 24-bit recorder, I wouldn't try to operate the camera and play with the levels at the same time. Catch a rehearsal or two for sound check, set the levels so that the loudest thing you hear in rehearsal is about -6 to -9db (since things will always be louder when engaged with the audience), and engage the limiter as a safety factor. Then, just be ready to lower the gains if necessary to keep max levels below the level where the limiter might kick in. I tend to be at three or four rehearsals before recording an opera; by being diligent during these, I've reached a point where I never have to adjust levels during the performances. And, with even halfway decent 24-bit equipment, there's lots of leeway to raise levels where necessary in post.
1. Opera folks in general are highly averse to any visible mics. At a decent opera, you won't be putting any mics anywhere where they're noticeable. That means no coincident pair center stage anywhere between the floor and the supertitles/top curtain, etc. You may be able to put a pair at about stage height, or on the outer lip of the orchestra pit if they're low. Boundary mics on the inner lip of the pit do a good job of picking up the singers; on the outer lip of the pit, in some places, they can be a decent compromise between orchestra and singers (though the orchestra will be a tad muffled). A spaced pair of cardioids, placed low, on the audience side of the pit can do a surprisingly good job in a pinch - aim at the singers' mouth level.
2. If there are complex sets or lighting, hanging mics can be a big problem, especially if you don't work it out with the technical director and lighting folks weeks before the show. Not something to count on.
3. Ideally, you want at least four channels - a stereo recording of the orchestra in the pit, and a stereo recording of the singers, as separate as possible. For a good mix, you'll want to adjust the level of the singers A LOT, as they move around the stage and sing pieces at different levels (you don't want to adjust much within a piece... try preserve the relative dynamic range within pieces). You DON'T want to dfo so much adjustment to the orchestra.. it's relative dynamics are steady, and it doesn't move around relative to the mics. Musicians will hate a recording where weird things happen to the orchestra levels because the singers change in level.
4. (I typically use a fairly minimal recording setup of about 15 mics, recorded multitrack. For very small operas or quick setup, often two-three directional boundary mics on stage, two-three mics for the orchestra, one or two for the audience if possible).
5. Placing head-like mics at a good listening position in the audience will give you something similar to (but not as good as) the actual experience of "being there" - including coughs, paper rustles, whispers, etc. When this is done professionally for, e.g., binaural opera recordings, it's done in a special session WITHOUT and audience... or with a fake one. I personally also tend to find ANY "audience perspective" recordings to sound too distant for my tastes.
6. Noiz - I heartily agree with you on the mono issue. I also tend not to worry about it; and I find recordings with spaced pairs tend to sound better, warmer, and more natural, even if not as "precise". I vote for "more likeable" over "clinically accurate" every time! Unfortunately, in the mathematical world of AES papers on mic techniques, precision is all they've got to go on, which I think has historically caused some damage.
7. Given a decent 24-bit recorder, I wouldn't try to operate the camera and play with the levels at the same time. Catch a rehearsal or two for sound check, set the levels so that the loudest thing you hear in rehearsal is about -6 to -9db (since things will always be louder when engaged with the audience), and engage the limiter as a safety factor. Then, just be ready to lower the gains if necessary to keep max levels below the level where the limiter might kick in. I tend to be at three or four rehearsals before recording an opera; by being diligent during these, I've reached a point where I never have to adjust levels during the performances. And, with even halfway decent 24-bit equipment, there's lots of leeway to raise levels where necessary in post.
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