Lets compare clips to be realistic.

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jamesmallonuk said:
Can I get permission now to say I told you so later when you are desperately selling everything you own including the 7D on Ebay to buy a Scarlett before this Christmas?

So f...g missing the point I'm making.



ps I look forward to seeing your next iphone movie....maybe.
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Actually my comment was more for Cola (for expressing the indie sate of mind better than i've read in a long time) and not against anything you said.

Funny thing is I have just sold my RED camera. Truth. Made money shooting and renting and then decided I didn't enjoy working with the camera . So I sold it for a significant profit .

Did a shoot with my EX1 last week and got paid the same that I did for RED. And everyone was happy with the quality and the easier workflow. I should let you read the emails the company sent. I've also done several shoots with the 5D. No complaints.

Now I've just got a EX1, a 5D, 2 canon HF11's,( because I like what they do) a 7D coming and an iphone too. I will keep them all for a long while becasue I like what they all do and their ease of use that even the 7D can't replace. When I feel I want a different camera I will sell them off for one that I like whether it be a scarlet or a point and shoot. The way I feel, Its my choice not some one else's idea of what a quality image is.
 
The Scarlet 2/3" will not compare favorably to the 7D for what I shoot, and at a price more than double what I'm paying for the 7D and that doesn't even include new lenses that I would need to purchase to accommodate the tiny 2/3" sensor.

The S35 brain is much more interesting, but at $7k before any of the other **** needed to put it to use even, I can buy a 7D and a whole slew of nice Canon glass and STILL not come close to the price.

So I can go out right now and use cash in my bank account to order a 7D and start shooting and making back my investment in a month or two....or I can get a loan for a Scarlett S35 rig...well, whenever it ships (late 2010 is my guess), and take a year or more to pay it off.
 
Red is going to IBC with an Epic. No scarlets to be seen there because I think the scarlets are being rethought and no one knows if the 2/3 size will still be there. We might be all surprised with what they come up with and the price it will cost. Since it doesn't exist theres no reason to compare it favorably or not to anything.
 
Hmmm well let's give this some thought. What if Red decided to not make scarlets? It seems as if the target was to always be better than the big boys. They don't really need the prosumer crowd to be profitable.

Why not just make epics?
They could just bring the epic price down to about $10k and go up to $30k. This would seem to be the smarter move. Why even compete in the prosumer market?
 
Can I get permission now to say I told you so later when you are desperately selling everything you own including the 7D on Ebay to buy a Scarlett before this Christmas?
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Sorry but it ain't gonna happen. There won't be a Scarlet on anybody's hand by Christmas. Mark my words. Probably next year sometime but NOT IN 2009. There is no magic involved in creating a camera from scratch, especially from a company with a limited track record. I would love to get a Scarlet tomorrow if it was available but reality tells me not to wait for it this year. To deliver the anticipated level of quality in such a small package is going to take a mighty amount of work. As for the VDSLRs, as soon as they become more sophisticated on the video department, with all the bells and whistles,including RAW capture, then everybody and their brother will want to shoot with one. Including big productions. Mark my words on that one too. It must be a little sad not to understand trends and the change new technologies have brought into our business and will bring for years to come. I know is hard for some people to accept change but is happening at a furious pace here. All you have to remember is how a few years back professional photographers said that digital photography would never replace traditional film. And we all know what happened with that one.

BTW: Video on the new DSLRs never happened by accident. All the big companies started their video and still programs with point and shoot digital cameras a long time ago. It just evolve naturally into bigger sensor cameras. There are a lot of hurdles for video on these cameras that are now being fixed. The big Japanese camera companies don't do anything by accident. They know how to plan and deliver, improve and then deliver again better.
 
jamesmallonuk said:
Big Budget players are using the RED
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And the F950 and the F35 and the F23 and the VariCam and ... oh, yeah, 35mm film...

Barry is missleading not to encourage people in this oportunity at this time.
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Are you serious? Misleading?

Okay, here's the big question to answer yourself: what PERCENTAGE of those films' budgets goes to the camera? And, once you answer that, then decide whether using the same camera as them is going to result in the same look as them. Where did all the rest of that money go? Hmmm... maybe there's something more to the "filmic" look than buying a DSLR?

We've heard this "the playing field is now level, the revolution is here" kind of talk for decades. It started with 16mm film, around 1940-something. The cheap alternative to 35mm. Then we heard about it with 8mm and, most especially, with Super8 film. (Back in 1980, all I wanted was a Chinon Pacific 200/8XL Super8 movie camera... man, if I just had that, I'd be a "real" filmmaker. Sound familiar?) Then it was all about video, when video first started (all Robert Rodriguez' short films were shot on VHS.) Then, oh, the big one, 1997, with DV, how component digital video was now going to be the ultimate revolutionizer, now the means of production were in the end user's hands, now you could edit on a desktop computer with a cheap firewire card, THE REVOLUTION IS HERE! Yay! Except... I guess we need more "revolution" because in 2002 when the DVX came out, that was the big revolutionizer and the final nail in the coffin of why anyone couldn't succeed. But, wait, in 2003 it was the JVC GH-HD1 camera... now the consumer had HD! Surely the gates of Hollywood were going to fal..l. Then in 2005 we got 24p HD, with the HD100 and the HVX200, and with the HVX we also got 4:2:2 color sampling and slow motion! So now, the revolution is secure, who needs anything more? Ah, but in 2006 the real revolution arrived, because we got the Redrock M2 and other lens adapters... surely that was all anyone needed to make their opus! The revolution is finally complete! Oh, but wait -- in 2007 we got the Red One. NOW the revolution is here, now we can get started. Oh, I guess not, because in 2008 we got the full-raster EX1 with half-inch chips! Yay! Revolution! Er... but we also got the D90 and the EOS 5D Mark II -- so NOW the revolution is here. Who can deny it? NOW we can make something filmic, right? Except, of course, that it wasn't the real revolution, because in 2009 we got the GH1 and (soon) the 7D, with true 1080/24p at unheard of price points. So Now can we have our revolution? Please? Or will it all be thrown out in six months when the Scarlet comes out -- will that be the real revolution? Or what about the oft-rumored Canon XL-H2... surely that will be the revolution? Can I make filmlooking stuff on that?

The fact is, you could have made film-looking stuff on that 1940's-era 16mm Filmo. I know, because I've got one, and I've done it.

Look long and hard in the mirror, folks. It ain't the lack of equipment that's holding anyone back.

Jack and I got a film in Slamdance this year, shot on a 3-year-old HVX200. And last year James Longley got 2 academy award nominations shot on a seven-year-old DVX100, and Chris Kentis got a theatrical release with "Open Water" shot on a VX2000. Maybe we all should have waited for the 7D or the Scarlet?

Keep waiting if you want, keep looking for that "revolution". Boy, sure would have been nice if this revolution had been around when Rodriguez was shooting, maybe he could have availed himself of this great technology to shoot "El Mariachi" on.

Point is, the tools that are available today are WAY BETTER than they've ever been before, and they are WAY more than good enough. An EX3 or HPX300 can make footage that looks close enough to an F900, the camera Lucas shot Star Wars Episode II on, and you can buy 'em outright for $8,000. A GH1 can make footage that could fool people that it was shot on a Red One... for $1500. If you can't do something amazing and cinema-like with today's equipment, IT IS NOT THE EQUIPMENT'S FAULT.

The revolution is here. It's been here for sixty years. And it'll be here again and again and again.
 
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Well said, Barry! Pixel Peeping is only fun for so long, shooting's more fun and productive. I fully hope this forum to be empty by October 9th, and the User Films section to blossom forth
 
It's easy for all of us to get caught up in cutting edge technology, and even easier to forget that technology is always cutting edge and will always be better tomorrow.

Thanks, Barry.
 
So I challenge anyone to post DSLR work that can convince were are watching a movie. Here's a clip form the RED to get the ball rolling its by far the best I've seen but it furthurs my point. And yes lighting etc makes the difference but lets have some DSLR footage that is as convincing.

http://www.thedoorpost.com/hope/La Premiere/
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xWolgfF0XI&fmt=22

The live action sequences from this film were all shot on a 5d. Check.

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LOL :) great previous post Barry!

Measurebators are concerned with pixels, the audience is concerned with content, too many people lose sight of that.

EDIT: If indies want to be measurebators I think they should start looking at audio, I'd enjoy an indie feature shot with great audio gear (schoeps) and a dvx100 more than I would a Red and crappy audio.
 
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Some people just can't be helped I guess. Go buy the 7D.






...............And the wise wait a few months you'll thank me later.:smile:
 
I want a RED. Badly. But when faced with the ability to purchase a surprisingly inexpensive and seemingly versatile product in the present or to wait for a product of unknown specifications to be released at an indeterminable time at an inconceivable cost, I feel strongly compelled to act in the present. It seems very likely that in the time that I could have been waiting, I will have not only paid off the purchase of the interim camera, but will have made money. The extra capital may very well put me in range of the S35 instead of the 2/3".

I understand that my situation is somewhat unique and that many others already have the equipment they need to shoot, but at the same time there seem to be quite a number of first-time buyers looking at the 7D. Perhaps I'm not quite so alone.
 
I love the finality surrounding the camera decision...haha. It's a $1700 camera that will hold its resale value for a long long time. Buy it now, if some mythical beast happens to appear out of thin air in the next few months, and said mythical beast happens to be worth the price over the $1700 camera, sell it back off for $1600. It's not complicated. I'd rather make films now than keep putting off for better and better gear.
Or just hold on to it. It's only $1700. It's half the price of a RED viewfinder.
 
without a doubt Barry, one of the best pieces of writing I have had the pleasure to read. That post should be compulsory reading anywhere cameras are sold, discussed, written about, bitched about and (god forbid) used.
 
jamesmallonuk said:
Some people just can't be helped I guess. Go buy the 7D.

...............And the wise wait a few months you'll thank me later.:smile:
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I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have a feeling that nobody here is going to thank you. Your condescending attitude isn't very nice. As has been stated a number of times in this and other threads and forums, if you buy what's on the market now, or use what you already have, then you can make movies and money in the interim, instead of wasting time just waiting.

The people who are buying the DSLRs now do so for a variety of reasons, and to dismiss all of those reasons and presume that everyone does or should think like you do is ignorant, arrogant, and insulting. The most basic reason why anybody changes cameras is because something new on the market fits his/her needs far better than what he/she already has. Some people are "upgrading" from small-chip, fixed-lens rigs. Some people are looking to save money and increase rig usability by switching from DOF adapter systems. And some people can't afford what RED's promising/offering but would like to be able produce casually comparable output. What do these people gain from not buying right now and instead waiting an indeterminate number of months for the Scarlet?

You know, to be perfectly fair, not even RED footage looks just like film. It looks GREAT, but it's not film. Only film can look just like film. Digital cinematography will always approach the look of film but will probably never get there. DSLR footage can approximate the look of RED, so the question is, who besides you is fussy enough to claim that none of it looks "cinematic"?

And I say all of that as a RED fan who plans to buy a Scarlet ASAP and who currently has a 7D and a GH1 on the way.
 
I just deleted the last two posts. don't get personal. don't use offensive slurs. don't post in this thread unless you've got something of substance to contribute. :)

"Be excellent to each other!"

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