Lets compare clips to be realistic.

[ydgmdlu]

The fixed lenses was at last check less than 4000 dollars and is ready to shot, stick a mic on it and you good to go.

But to be fair, the fixed-lens Scarlet doesn't appeal to many users here who want or have DSLRs. The reason is precisely because the sensor is 2/3", and the lens is fixed.

I maintain my point the 7D looks too video like to waste time on if someone is planning a low budget short anytime in the next 3-6 months.

And we're back into condescending territory again.

1) The contrast can be dialed-down on the 7D and 5D to create an acceptably flat image. The vast majority of DSLR videos out there right now simply weren't shot that way. It doesn't mean that the cameras are incapable.

2) Whether or not the quality of any DSLR footage is too "video-like" is a subjective evaluation. You're talking as if everyone does or should think exactly like you do. And then you go on about whether the quality of the footage is worth "wasting time" to get. Plenty of people here think the quality IS worth the time, effort, and money. Plenty of people here not only think that the quality is acceptably "film-like" but also think that it's acceptably "RED-like." Just go read the "Scarlet dreams" thread. So stop trying to speak for everyone here. I'd love to see you debate f64manray. I'd pay to see that.

3) You know what? I happen to have seen footage from the RED One that looks shockingly, distractingly "video-like." You know how that happened? It was because it wasn't shot the way that a professional film production is shot. And let's not forget that the vast majority of RED footage that you see has been properly, professionally graded, while the vast majority of DSLR footage has not. If you take any one of these DSLRs and shoot the way that film professionals shoot and grade the way that film professionals grade, then it will look almost as close to film as RED footage does.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

But to be fair, the fixed-lens Scarlet doesn't appeal to many users here who want or have DSLRs. The reason is precisely because the sensor is 2/3", and the lens is fixed


.......................... So stop trying to speak for everyone here.

:grin:



Like I said I'm just suggesting the RED could be a better bet at this point, Not condesending just IMHO.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

I'm personally amused by the fact a couple of months ago I got it in the neck from posters after I tried to suggest the GH1 was flawed and we should wait for the next round of DSLR's from Nikon and Canon. My posts got moved to Cafe DVX where no-one ever read them again. Back then I hoped myself a DSLR would do the job of a scarlett, particularly Nikon.


Hands up who's signing their GH1 onto Ebay now after a 'productive' couple of months trying learn how to use it and get a decent wide lens to work with it. People were saying its footage was like RED. :huh:

 

[daveswan]

Um projected 2/3" fixed Scarlet is $3750 after exchange rate conversion and allowing for import duty and VAT I came up with aguess of £3000-3500.
Currently a 5DII goes for £2000 body only (Use dirt-cheap M42 lenses if you don't alreafy have Canon) and the 7D is projected at £1650 with a very likely drop.
Both these are also pretty damn good stills cameras which the 2/3" Scarlet isn't, err won't be, you'll need the s35 minimum for that at £7000 without anything but the sensor.
IF you can afford them when / if they emerge, fine but don't patronise those of us on a tight budget, trying to do the best we can with what we have / can afford.
Dave

 

[pveal]

Sorry to hijack this tortuous thread but i promise i will post this only once seeing as Kholi, Zak, and the big guns so to speak will probably read this: can i use my Krasnogorsk-3 17-69mm f1.9 zoom Zenit Lens on the GH1? Maybe Squig has some ideas?

I shot a short thing in Seoul which some of you guys liked and I used a curve preset that mattsand made available for my (pariah) d90 which allowed me in my limited capacity (oh i'm so humble) to process some pretty un-videofied looking stuff. I was using a pd170 for four years so maybe I think my stuff is more filmic than i should, But it don't look like video to me, just bad low bit rate mjpeg compressed D90 footage, mutton dressed as lamb via magic bullet, but not video video. cheers, on with the show

 

[Barry_Green]

Ooh, interesting... well... hmm. Is your K-3 an M42 mount? Most of them are, but a few were Bayonet mount. If it's bayonet mount, I find it doubtful that you'll find a mount converter. But if it is an M42 mount, then you should be able to get an M42->M4/3 lens adapter. It might fit; it's been a while since I had a K-3 so I don't remember what the back of the lens looks like, I think it protrudes pretty deep past the mount, but there should be lots of cavernous space in the GH1 with an M42 mount, so... it might fit.

But, how usable will it be? Probably will wok as a 2:1 zoom, from 35mm to 69mm, but I don't know how much of the wider range you'll be able to use.

 

[pveal]

thanks Sir Barry Green, it's an M42 mount. The wider range will be compromised by the size of the Gh1 sensor; that the lens is designed for 16mm filmcamera? Can get my hands on a mount and will test maybe next week and will post the results in the d90 forum. The wider range is desirable but...oh well. Going to shoot a river between china and north korea where women try to cross and drown so actually long range is need in these circumstances. Barry thanks for your reply and your previous inspiring post. Woohoo! back to the 7D guys, cheers.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

IF you can afford them when / if they emerge, fine but don't patronise those of us on a tight budget, trying to do the best we can with what we have / can afford.
Dave

You are aware your location is West London the most expensive part of London, any house there would be 1,000,000 dollars and then some. My points were made to save money long term for poor people with a financial decision.

 

[Eddy Robinson]

I maintain my point the 7D looks too video like to waste time on if someone is planning a low budget short anytime in the next 3-6 months.

I'm not convinced. Have you looked at the Phil Bloom 'Dublin People' piece yet? That looks pretty filmic to me, even playing back full res...

Edit: OF COURSE I expect better results from the RED, and from the Scarlet when it (eventually) debuts. But the fixed lens Scarlet will be about 2x the price of the 7d, while the s35 brain (interchangeable lenses) will be about 5x. And you know what - I think it will be worth those extra dollars. I love what can be done with RED.

But as pointed out, it can also look like video. If in doubt, go see Gamer, a movie which has just opened. Shot on RED, it's a sci-fi movie about a future where socializing and shoot-em-up video games are played using real people instead of computer-generated characters (and it's considerably better than i anticipated - clever script, very imaginative visuals, superb editing). A lot of it 'looks like video' because the story calls for it to do so - indeed there are several instances where it switches between a filmic look and a video look multiple times in the same scene in order to establish different points of view. Although it's wholly deliberate here, it's not hard to imagine what could go wrong in less experienced hands.

 

[Rakesh Jacob]

Cool I loved Gamer, I wasn't expecting much but it turned out to be a well thought out concept!!! GO RED! But holy crap the CMOS Skew! Wow, that's the next big issue to tackle for this whole class of cameras to be honest. Seriously media has evolved into an immersive first person medium because of video games and I would love to go back to when I was just whipping my DVX around and the world didnt turn to a fun house mirror.

 

[Barry_Green]

thanks Sir Barry Green, it's an M42 mount. The wider range will be compromised by the size of the Gh1 sensor; that the lens is designed for 16mm filmcamera?

Yes, that lens is only designed to cover a Super16 frame size, which is about 1/3 as big as the GH1's sensor, so you can expect some serious vignetting on the wide end.

The wider range is desirable but...oh well. Going to shoot a river between china and north korea where women try to cross and drown so actually long range is need in these circumstances.

Okay, but -- do you not have the GH1's stock lens? It's both wider, and way more telephoto, than the K-3's lens... 14-140 is a way bigger range than 17-69!

 

[Eddy Robinson]

Maybe it was the sci-fi context of the film, but I completely failed to notice that while I was watching it last night. I did see a lot of strobing on some segments, but took that as a deliberate choice for the segments which were meant to have a synthetic, unnatural feel.

 

[Barry_Green]

Edit: OF COURSE I expect better results from the RED, and from the Scarlet when it (eventually) debuts.

Darn straight. I expect better results from any product that costs more than another product. :thumbsup:

But the fixed lens Scarlet will be about 2x the price of the 7d, while the s35 brain (interchangeable lenses) will be about 5x.

Well... again, we don't know that. That's what Red said back in December of 2008, yes, but that's really, really old info by now. We simply have no idea what the actual specs and actual configurations and actual prices will be. IINM, they had at least one announcement where they said "everything just changed completely again, all for the better" (or something like that). That's why I'm optimistic about what the actual Scarlet will be.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

I'm not convinced. Have you looked at the Phil Bloom 'Dublin People' piece yet? That looks pretty filmic to me, even playing back full res...

Actually it made me even more sure the 7D is a long way from Red Footage. Instead of arguments have a look at some 2K red files http://www.bealecorner.org/red/

and tell me what you think, not pixel counting just what the average viewer might think compared to seeing a 7D clip, the ungraded leaves clip shows how flat an ungraded image Red is unlike the Canon look.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Actually it made me even more sure the 7D is a long way from Red Footage. Instead of arguments have a look at some 2K red files http://www.bealecorner.org/red/

and tell me what you think, not pixel counting just what the average viewer might think compared to seeing a 7D clip, the ungraded leaves clip shows how flat an ungraded image Red is unlike the Canon look.

:huh:

We've got to compare things 1:1. Until we see footage from a 7D configured to produce a flat image shooting the same subject right next to a RED ONE, there's not really any certainty.

So far, unless I'm very wrong, the only footage shot by a DP on the 7D has been M. Bloom's, none of which was shot to be flat for grading later.

Of course the 7D image will be lower quality than the RED ONE. There is roughly a $15,000 difference, not even accounting for lenses, eyepieces, or storage. The RED image had better be higher quality. The question remains: what people are willing to pay the price (monetary or temporal) for RED given that other technology continues to improve. It is no longer so mind-numbingly amazing compared to the other players offerings.

 

[sblfilms]

My points were made to save money long term for poor people with a financial decision.

You have yet to address this point, but I'll post it again, people can go out in a month and shoot 7D work and make that money back pretty damn quick. I know as a guy who shoots weddings to pay for my gear fund my narrative work, the $1700 I spent on the 7D body will be paid back in less than 2 months time as wedding season here in Texas really heats up towards the end of the year (the only time it is at all cool!).

Why should I wait for a camera that has no announced release date, no announced specs, (because everything changed, again) and in fact doesn't even have the most important part, its ASIC, built....all when I can go out and buy a 7D and make some money in the mean time. Hell, I will probably be able to get 70 cents on the dollar a year from now if I sell.

 

[bwwd]

Actually it made me even more sure the 7D is a long way from Red Footage. Instead of arguments have a look at some 2K red files http://www.bealecorner.org/red/

and tell me what you think, not pixel counting just what the average viewer might think compared to seeing a 7D clip, the ungraded leaves clip shows how flat an ungraded image Red is unlike the Canon look.

+1
7D footage wasnt filmic for my eye even for 1 second,might be shutter speed "problem"

 

[Barry_Green]

all when I can go out and buy a 7D and make some money in the mean time. Hell, I will probably be able to get 70 cents on the dollar a year from now if I sell.

Amen.

Get what you need, and put it to work. If you want to upgrade later, sell what you've got and upgrade.

If you can't pay off a GH1 or a 7D in a couple of weeks, you're doing something *seriously* wrong.

 

[jamesmallonuk]

You have yet to address this point, but I'll post it again, people can go out in a month and shoot 7D work and make that money back pretty damn quick. I know as a guy who shoots weddings to pay for my gear fund my narrative work, the $1700 I spent on the 7D body will be paid back in less than 2 months time as wedding season here in Texas really heats up towards the end of the year (the only time it is at all cool!).

Why should I wait for a camera that has no announced release date, no announced specs, (because everything changed, again) and in fact doesn't even have the most important part, its ASIC, built....all when I can go out and buy a 7D and make some money in the mean time. Hell, I will probably be able to get 70 cents on the dollar a year from now if I sell.

I'm talking about the 7D's validity as a movie making tool compared to Scarlett. How you make money is non of my buisness and irrelevent to my point.

 

[sblfilms]

The 7D (And GH1, and D90, and 5D, and etc.) can all be used as effective tools for filmmaking in the time between now and whenever something better comes along. People can wait for the Scarlet to ship, and then people like you would say "Why bother with a 2/3" Scarlet when Christmas 2010 you can have an S35 Scarlet" then Christmas 2010 rolls around and you would be saying "Hey stupid, don't bother with a 12bit sensor like that, a real filmmaker would wait until the 16bit monstro sensor is available".

People can wait and wait and wait until the perfect tool is available, or they can go out and buy something right now and MAKE something. Your argument is the crutch of the less talented people who continually say "If only the camera did THIS, I would be getting the invite to the DGA the next day!". You will never be a good filmmaker if you continue to sit on your ass and wait for the right tool to come along.