It's coming.....

Ha!! Tell my wife that! Well seeing how Nikon started with the D90 they have came a long way in a short time. Will they take a big step in 2010? I think they have to because of the economy for one thing. People are being more careful with their money right now. Just like I'm sure Canon is working on a 8D or something. They have some things to fix too. So I don't think Nikon, Canon, Panasonic are going to sit around and not do anything. I'm hoping we see some great improvements in the DSLRs this year.



Uwe Lansing said:
:-)) ... perhaps, who knows. Unfortunately, i´m not as near as optimistic as you (and Zim). Nikon needs to get their things together regarding the video mode, urgently. But lets wait and see...
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damonb said:
mhood, if your wife and granddaughter love the D90, you'd be selling it on pain of death.
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You should see some of the beautiful pictures my 13 year old Granddaughter takes with the D90. I am certainly nobody's fanboy about it...I've just invested a few thousand in Canon lenses at this point and don't see me affording a switch back to Nikon given the nature of the vDSLR beast. You're right...nobody leads for long in this race and nobody officially loses.

I must say that to this day I prefer the look of the Nikon video...it's just warmer somehow. And AVCHD is a huge pain to work with. Once I got the right MJPEG codec on my machine, editing the D90's footage was a breeze on my slowest machine. I've now updated to Premiere CS4.2 and moved to a much faster machine and still have to convert everything with NeoScene before I can even watch the 7D's AVCHD footage.

...jumping through all these hoops for the 7D has sort of trapped me in the Canon camp. Not to mention lenses with no aperture rings. ;-)
 
A couple thoughts...

Regarding Megapixels: Look at the history & growth of the DSLR market - they began as high-end pro cameras, with digital point & shoots filling the consumer end. For the last few years, DSLRs have become more affordable & friendly, and I imagine a big chunk of the market are people who want to "look" like they're all geared up (but are still shooting P or A). As someone who makes a living with these things, there's never enough MP for me; I do shoot the occasional billboard after all, and the super-high end studio cameras have been over 40mp for ages. Someday I'll have a 40+ mp Nikon, and while I won't use that size constantly, I'll be glad it's there. Throw in some Moore's law and some western-mindset "newer/bigger is better" as well.

Reality-check thinking (for me) is I'd like enough MP to shoot an average two-page magazine spread at 300DPI - something like 12 x 18 - we're getting close to that, and 18 x 24 would feel even better.

Video seems to have been an afterthought on Nikon's part - someone said "Hey, we're shooting video to the LCD, why not allow users to capture the stream?" Nikon's video implementation is so "non Nikon" it's ridiculous (I do love it myself, for what it is) - no AF, crap compression, jello, non-standard frame size (thus all the line-chopping fixes) etc. This from a half-century of industry leadership? I mean, how many companies have existed this long and have been considered "the best" (or among the best) for this many decades? Well, it's simple - it's a tacked on feature that in Nikon's worldview may have nothing to do with their core business. I mean, video takes ONE or two pages of a huge user manual.

I imagine there are a lot of meetings at Nikon HQ where the phrase "so who do we want to be, what are we, what do we stand for" has come up. The subset of customers who are saying (to paraphrase threads like these) "Nikon needs to get its video act together" is probably small given the overall market size & Nikon-specific DSLR customer base (and the fact that the D90 REALLY has its act together as a still camera); if Nikon had designed video "for us" it would probably be pretty damned awesome, but again, it looks to be an afterthought, and the big question is: will future evolution of DSLR video be "for us" or for consumers? If it's consumers, you'll likely see 1080 at 60fps before the problems we have are fixed. (Look at review sites for flat panel TVs with hundreds of blowhards saying "720p is crap" - there are plenty of people who've already decided "bigger is better" and that 1080p is a remarkable difference on a 24" TV - yeah, right - marketing!!!)

The DSLR market shows us that when processing/storage becomes cheap enough (due to mass acceptance on the high end), consumer gear gets very powerful, though that power is more marketing/"bragging rights" than something widely used. Will we reach a point where the video we desire will be in every DSLR simply "because it can be"? I'd say it's inevitable, but probably not soon.

Nikon likely has the technology chops to make a camera close to or equal, say, the Red - but in tough times do they want to enter a completely new market? Is there enough desire from journalists and pro shooters to add truly useable "pro" video to forthcoming DSLRs (which have been in engineering and design pipelines for months/years as we chat?). Does Nikon (and does Canon) really care about the few users who are hopping from brand to brand because of "afterthought video" disappointments? (And should any business in their shoes?)

And, what may be the most important question - is upping the data rate, going manual, and working on stairstep issues an easy, firmware-based fix that has marketing value? Is a next-gen sensor that lowers Jello a complete overhaul or a simple evolutionary step?

And all of these sorts of questions will be likely be weighed against Nikon brass asking "do we even need this?" After all, they're likely patting their backs over what a great achievement the D90 truly is as a still camera. Are there some intransigent old department heads that simply can't perceive Nikon being a company known for video, with younger engineers yapping at them about filmmaking and new-decade thinking?

My belief is, the genie's out of the bottle, and now we'll have sales guys saying, "This here Canon has bla-bla-bla video, why on earth would you look at Nikon" and vice versa and suddenly manufacturers are chasing each others tails. It's a feature that's been adopted and thus will continue to be tweaked, for good and for bad.

For all its faults, D90 video sure can be pretty. I imagine we'll have sub-$1k "real" hi-def jello-free DSLR video in a year or three (by "real" I mean all those pixels will be sharp & gorgeous and useable). For me, the DSLRs are a stopgap; for all of Red's blown deadlines, they look dead serious about having "the camera that shall not be named because I get yelled at for mentioning it in the D90 forum" out this summer in good quantities. Yeah, you could buy 5 D90's or one Sc*rlet... but IF it arrives and IF it performs as predicted, those who can afford one will suddenly stop worrying about - well, all of the above. Because Red (and SI, etc) are developing cinema cameras for a specific market, not tacking stuff on an existing product for a different market.

But... I'll sure be thrilled, and will get my wallet out, for a Nikon DSLR with manual video, better compression, and reduced Jello for under $2k. Hell yes.
 
I think Nikon has to stay in this video game. Times have changed. I read a story about the Apple Tablet. Newspapers and even some books are a thing of the past. I really think video DSLRs are going to be part of that change. But you are right Nikon is going to have step up to the plate and put out something really good.
 
I agree with Zim - video in DSLR's has become a necessity. I do not think you will see any 3 years from now that don't have it, and very few will be released this year without it (maybe just Sony's ?). So yes, I think Nikon will ultimately decide "yes, we need this", but by then it will be too late for me, unfortunately.

I continue to hang onto my D300s (although I just bought a GH1 for video) and Nikon glass, but the next iteration will indicate how long I have to wait for real video. If the D900/D400 don't have the features I'm after then I won't be waiting around for a D1000/D500 and I will be moving to Canon, which is something I really don't want to do.

I also expect its a bigger market then you (Michael) think - because Canon really does seem to be paying serious attention to it. Nikon is virtually ignoring it, tho, because their camera's haven't been accepted like the Canon's - mainly due to Nikon's crippled cameras. Canon released firmware fixes to address some 'pro' issues (24p) and they continue to pay attention to 'filmaker' features not just journalist features. I think it was unexpected but they have seen the market embrace their cameras and intend to push further into it.
 
I don't think the overall market (for DSLR Video) is small - I do wonder if the size of the market that wants professional quality output is a large percentage of the DSLR buying public at this time.

That's based on my suspicion that (a)Canon's implementation of capturing, compressing, and storing a live-view video feed was just as much an afterthought as Nikon's appears to be, and (b) that their particular implementation happened to be easier to adjust via firmware.

That's simply conjecture though - it was either a (a) lot easier for Canon to respond to user requests, or (b) they took those requests much more seriously than Nikon, deciding that evolving their video was either visionary or competitive (or both).

As suggested in my previous (and long-winded) post, I think all major DSLR manufacturers hands were tied to the DSLR Video Era the minute the D90 hit the shelves - features sell, and even those that don't sell outright become tie-breakers in the consumer buying-decision process. For now it comes down to what sort of feature-upgrade battle the manufacturers will have on their hands, and how bloody they want to get with it. For us that will translate into how many meaningful & useful features will be affected (For instance, do many pro shooters use things like in-camera sepia toning, or do they ignore that stuff and use Photoshop?) Full manual control is fairly rare in the consumer video market - but autofocus & good image quality sell. Will Nikon & Canon develop this technology as professional tech, or will they see it as another consumer bells & whistles thing?

Luckily, we're talking about manufacturers who have shared for decades a philosophy of making gear that straddles the consumer-to-pro divide. I still have 8008s and N90s (film) bodies with fantastic manual control and the full range of "p" settings, camera that in their day were the D90 equivalent.

Hopefully there are a lot of R&D people addressing the entire arc of consumer "features" and professional needs. I think the only question is "how soon?"
 
By all accounts, the Canon 5DII has shifted around 70,000 units so far.... how many of them were from pro or wanna pro video/film guys.... i'd say at the very, very least 3500? That's a 5% increase in sales.... the 7D has probably an even higher % (then factor in glass sales)

I would think that kind of interest would be enough to make them sit up and listen... it seems to have worked with canon at least. The uproar over manual video control led to a firmware change and even an announcement about 24p.... unheard of before. None of the people creating that uproar would be considered as hobbyists....

The market for pro video features seems to be there. Whether it is significant enough for Canon/Nikon to really act is still unknown.... but I doubt either company would want to ignore it and then be surprised by the uptake of their competitor.

The D3s (manual controls) seems to be a sign that Nikon are gonna at least try and compete.
 
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I think video is now a standard feature on all DSLRs to come - like camera on phones is now standard

what we are not seeing yet is a desire from either canon or nikon to produce a DSLR that creates video as a professional tool

Monitored sound
XLR input
Record to one card then the other

And little touches like my HDMI falls out of my 7d all the time meaning I lose my monitor - a little thing that is unnaceptable in a professional environment

If they are serious about offering a professional tool then it probably needs to be something like a D3s with an underslung video module with XLR inputs and maybe a raw recorder of some sort

and DSLR plus moduly would probably cost $5k at least - which would not bew a problem for a non compromised tool

S
 
morgan_moore said:
If they are serious about offering a professional tool then it probably needs to be something like a D3s with an underslung video module with XLR inputs and maybe a raw recorder of some sort

and DSLR plus moduly would probably cost $5k at least - which would not bew a problem for a non compromised tool

S
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Hey Morgan, that's a terrific idea. And a third party manufacturer could make it. I'm not sure about the sound - why ever not dual system? And it couldn't be too bulky anyway otherwise you're in pro camcorder territory. But I like the module idea - with a HD even if operating as a buffer - a bunch. Especially if you could buy the module, and connect it as you would with lenses to the next camera you buy...
 
I see it as a module because yer average stills shooter doesnt want to be carting round XLRs and stuff they never use

Ineed just a massive buffer would enable fatter codecs and could organise a longer record time to regular CFs

Dual sound

surely no one actually wants this - especially pros looking to

-dump their footy on the client at the end of the day

- cut an item by the end of the day

For stills I love the D3, Raw and jpg, jpg gives me news quality images on deadline, Raw gives me flexibility to tinker on more heavy projects
 
When REDS mythical camera is released I will bet my testicle...ok maybe not, but I will bet that Canon releases their mythical full frame or APC digital cinema camera that was briefly rumored about a year ago. Then things are going to get interesting. I am interested to see what the specs will be like for RED'S still side of things as well. Granted the ergonomics are going to be worse than Canon (hehehehe) but I imagine they are going to be able to take some pretty impressive still at ridiculously high MP's
 
Oh and if the D800/D900 has the selectable liveview crop factor like the D3s does, then bonus.

Full Frame, 1.2 crop, 1.5 crap, aaaah. USEFUL.

Just please let it have manual control Nikon!
 
zergtherobot said:
When REDS mythical camera is released I will bet my testicle...ok maybe not, but I will bet that Canon releases their mythical full frame or APC digital cinema camera
Click to expand...

Im not so sure - remember that canon video department probably still see large sensors as fundamentally stupid because..

they are hard to focus either manually or with an AF system

they mean the glass is large heavy and expensive

S
 
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