Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Don't know if the DRS was enabled in any of these cams, but that feature alone would quite possible help a great deal with the highlights in these hi contrast scenes.
Filippo Chiesa Video
- Thread starter Coco Bermudez
- Start date
Honestly Barry I had thought that this was gonna be the case with the Japan shoot, but it didn't turnout like that ...so therefore I was dissapointed and wanted to see footage from Fillipo Chiesa aswell because I thought that he had more experience using panasonic camera's.
People were rude maybe me aswell I do feel bitter about yesterday, but I hope Panasonic do things as you suggest next time !
kylekmd
Well-known member
Barry, I couldn't agree more.
I'm no expert shooter, by any stretch of the imagination. But in October I had access to an ALEXA for two days and even though it is "fairly user friendly" according to my DP friend who let me use it, there was a significant learning curve. If I had to lug it around a foreign country the first day while trying to learn its intricacies.... well, forget it. At best, I would've produced a nice home movie with some fancy titling. And we all know what awesome images the ALEXA can produce.
So, thanks guys for taking the time out of your busy lives to offer your expertise with this new cam. I fully appreciate it, and look forward to receiving my own AF100.
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Stu Siegal
Well-known member
If they'd pushed you out of the plane with the camera and a parachute, that would be a marketing stunt. This wasn't a stunt, it was a KOL event, plain and simple, said so right on big neon sign welcoming you all. KOL events are marketing events. I'm sure there was plenty of face time with engineers, but with the camera 95% done and 50 days until it hits the shelf, this was not primarily an R&D focus group. Those happen much earlier in the cycle, and they are not well publicized, as this event was. If you'd complained about the placement of the controls, there'd be nothing they could do about it on this cycle, as molds are already designed and parts possible even pre-assembled. They'd simply take it under advisement for the next cycle or push out the ship date and deal with the fallout.
Full disclosure: On occasion, I produce and consult on KOL events in the medical device space. Nice gigs, keep the lights on and all that. And of course the surgeons are never paid, they donate their time and opinions, get a nice trip, and improve/solidify their stature in their space. And most importantly, the public gets their opinion. This is a good thing for consumers, much better than trying to learn about a product from ad written by a marketer or a scripted video.
But the thing is, you want to showcase your product in the best light. Philip Bloom has no idea how to make a pana cam sing, and there's no excuse for not making sure he and others were set up to the best out of the product. Why the event was not better conceived I have no idea, but it's too bad, because as many people have noted, in it's class, it is the best option out there.
Full disclosure: On occasion, I produce and consult on KOL events in the medical device space. Nice gigs, keep the lights on and all that. And of course the surgeons are never paid, they donate their time and opinions, get a nice trip, and improve/solidify their stature in their space. And most importantly, the public gets their opinion. This is a good thing for consumers, much better than trying to learn about a product from ad written by a marketer or a scripted video.
But the thing is, you want to showcase your product in the best light. Philip Bloom has no idea how to make a pana cam sing, and there's no excuse for not making sure he and others were set up to the best out of the product. Why the event was not better conceived I have no idea, but it's too bad, because as many people have noted, in it's class, it is the best option out there.
Yak
Well-known member
Well said Barry, what I have learned from your experience with the AFX (AF-100) is that it does not seem to "get in the way" when you capture a moving images, like can be the case with some cameras. From what I have been reading all of you who have shot with it have found that it fits nicely into your working style, allowing you focus on your subject. The quality of the images you all were abel to get out of the camera on day 1 is not only a testament to all of your skills but also a testament to Panasonic's connivance in their new camera. Not manny camera companies would be willing to do what Panasonic just did.
mjmcneese
Veteran
The tests that I've seen thus far leave me wanting more from this camera. As others have said, this looks like really good video, especially for the price point.
However, I have not yet seen footage of a quality that I have expected. It's still too early to determine that this lack of "wow" comes from the photogs, the cameras capabilities, or just an underwhelming set/location.
There have been lots of "tests" trying to figure out how the camera performs in poor lighting, figuring out DR, et al. I wanna see what the camera can do with 5 tons of G&E, a pro DP, and decent content. If I were Panasonic, the very FIRST footage I would allow to be released would be footage that is thoroughly pre-pro'd, well-lit, etc, showcasing how GOOD it can be.
However, I have not yet seen footage of a quality that I have expected. It's still too early to determine that this lack of "wow" comes from the photogs, the cameras capabilities, or just an underwhelming set/location.
There have been lots of "tests" trying to figure out how the camera performs in poor lighting, figuring out DR, et al. I wanna see what the camera can do with 5 tons of G&E, a pro DP, and decent content. If I were Panasonic, the very FIRST footage I would allow to be released would be footage that is thoroughly pre-pro'd, well-lit, etc, showcasing how GOOD it can be.
Although not posted online the very first day he got the cam, wasn't Vincent Laforet's "Reverie" shot only after a day or two of getting a prototype 5DII?
Jaime Valles
Veteran
Still in shock over the reaction to these video clips. You don't like clipping? BOO-FRIKKIN-HOO! I can't tell you how much clipping there is in the majority of footage posted online from the RED ONE. And that's a $20K+ camera! The AF100 costs $5K. The Sony costs $16K. The S35 Scarlet will likely cost $12K+. Why are people complaining?
"But it looks just like my DSLR footage!" YES! YES IT DOES! Except it looks like your footage without aliasing or moiré! That alone is worth the price difference, never mind the audio controls...
Sheesh! I don't blame Barry, Phillip or Filippo for not wanting to post footage here again. The attitude of some folks here is downright embarrassing.
"But it looks just like my DSLR footage!" YES! YES IT DOES! Except it looks like your footage without aliasing or moiré! That alone is worth the price difference, never mind the audio controls...
Sheesh! I don't blame Barry, Phillip or Filippo for not wanting to post footage here again. The attitude of some folks here is downright embarrassing.
mjmcneese
Veteran
But from what I've seen thus far, I like the aesthetics of my 7D footage over that of the AF100. Yada yada yada...yes, I understand that the artifacts are greatly improved over DSLRs, audio, LCD, VF, form factor, etc. In terms of color accuracy, DR, and filmic detail, from what I've seen SO FAR, I'm not won over by the AF100.
Interesting in reading through all of the posts last night, I kept running into "but you have to see what it looks like on a Broadcast monitor..." or large plasma, etc. Seems to me that Vimeo and the like pose a relevant test that shouldn't be discounted. If it looks decent there, then you know it will look that much better when viewed in full resolution on good monitors.
I've never gotten around to watching Philip's stuff on my large system monitors - it looks incredible on Vimeo and Exposure Room on my desktop, and never felt the need to go to the next step. Having said that, I think I will now out of curiosity.
Bravo to all involved with the Japan trip.
I've never gotten around to watching Philip's stuff on my large system monitors - it looks incredible on Vimeo and Exposure Room on my desktop, and never felt the need to go to the next step. Having said that, I think I will now out of curiosity.
Bravo to all involved with the Japan trip.
EidolonFilms
Well-known member
Yes I am not sure why it has to be seen on a broadcast monitor. What is the point as it is a compressed mp4 file? What extra is the broadcast monitor showing (not to mention you'd have to transcode the file to show it through FCP, not sure about the other editing systems.)
But this doesn't matter. If someone likes what they see from the 5D on vimeo, but doesn't like what they see from the AF100 on vimeo, then that is a fair comparison for them. It is two videos viewed on the same platform, so if one looks better than the other, that is a fair comparison I'd say.
All that said, I still don't get what people aren't liking about the AF100. I love it. I showed some of the clips to my producing partner (cares much less about technical than me), and she said "Oh it doesn't look as good as the 5D stuff." Well, so there you go, not sure how to explain that. But she just liked the 5D clips she has seen better. Of course I then spent many minutes explaining and convincing why it wasn't better, but for some reason it's just really hard to break free from that "5D is amazing" mind set.
groveChuck
U-matic Member
I think this is very true, and also gets at the root of some of the (over) reactions to the AF100.
The DVX100 was a quantum leap from it's predecessors, offering 24p.
The HVX200 was a quantum leap, offering DVCPro HD and P2.
The 5DMkII was a quantum leap in delivering shallow DoF and a softer, filmic, non-video image- especially when in its "butter zone" (™ Barry Green).
The AF100 is a refinement, not the quantum leap many were apparently expecting-
- Losing the aggravating moire.
- Drastic reduction of skew.
- Onboard audio, true camcorder profile, etc (we all know the pluses, right?)
If people were expecting a quantum leap above the 5D, for under $5000, I'm not sure why.
And I also don't know why forum members label the Japan trip as a "failed marketing ploy."
It was simply Panasonic doing what we all know they do, listening to users.
Instead of reading the forum and taking suggestions from here, they brought shooters to their home offices, so they could get instant, accurate feedback of what was and was not working.
And I think it's reasonable (a word and approach woefully underused around here lately) to expect some minor refinements before the AF is commercially released.
Then it's up to us, as users, to experiment, learn and share what we find out- optimal settings, what to try under certain conditions, etc.
But come on people, nobody said this was a $5000 Red, nobody said it was going to be 10 times, or 5 times, or even twice as good as a 5D.
It is what it is- an affordable, self contained camcorder that, while not resolving twice the image of the 5D, DOES resolve the most limiting restraints of the Canons. As I finish writing this, I'm heading out to shoot a music video on gritty urban streets, and will spend way too much time avoiding power lines, fences and other objects in the area.
The AF is full of potential. I'm going to get mine, learn its inherent strengths and weaknesses, share, and learn from others here. As will many others.
If you choose not to, fine. Just don't complain so loudly you spoil my audio. :happy:
PS- Thanks Barry, Philip, Filippo, and the others for taking that insane, grueling trip, and sharing (SHARING, people), your efforts on a brand new, nearly finished piece of gear while under the serious influence of jet lag! MUCH APPRECIATED.
EidolonFilms
Well-known member
In another thread someone said something akin to "I was expecting to see some sort of never before seen footage from the AF100." This is the problem. What would that even be? I agree the AF is full of potential, and perhaps because I never expected some unprecedented footage to come from it, I am not disappointed like others. In fact, what I have seen so far is pretty much exactly what I was expecting and hoping to see. Maybe that makes me weird.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
Did you see the amount of gear and support he had for that shoot?
http://vincentlaforet.smugmug.com/gallery/6021407_xEg87#378479692_MRytZ
Hardly the same as any other videographer going out and "testing his new camera out".
I think it's the esthetics, the DSLRS have a very beautiful image that people can immediately see and "feel". Moire and artifacts don't show them up at first sight, but once you start notice them you see them everywhere and they ruin your pleasure to look at those images. But what colors and sweet gradients!
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
To be honest I know my DSLR cameras in and out so footage never comes as a surprise. I guess I'll get to know the AF101 after a while and shoot just as good with it.
EidolonFilms
Well-known member
I think it's also the content of these first test shoots. These AF100 clips have lots of wide shots, bright daylight, waterfalls - things we didn't see in the first clips from the 5D and 7D, which were mostly closeups of human faces, many times at night. And I think most would agree those CU shots are where the DSLRs excel, so it makes sense. Perhaps reaction would have been different if Bloom did a "Osaka's People" style film with the AF100? But again, I still don't see the issues with these first clips.
Barry_Green
Moderator
DRS is enabled, and it does make a huge difference, but -- there's a price to pay, and that's noise. In general I don't like pulling DRS out of the bag unless I really need it. I did one shot with the sun behind a building and a wonderfully dramatic sky, and the building was nearly in silhouette as I tried to rein in the sky. I switched on the DRS and the building just "popped" -- it looked great. In the viewfinder. But on the monitor, it's a noisy mess (because the DRS gained up the building by about 18db!) So... DRS is good, maybe I should have used DRS 1 to hold the sky without adding noise to the building, but ... DRS 3, I wouldn't use it unless it was a case where I just had to get the shot.
Actually, though, it might be quite interesting to see what Neat Video could do with that DRS shot...
Barry_Green
Moderator
I totally agree.
Barry_Green
Moderator
This is a very keen observation too. Why are there so many wide shots? Because the wides are so much better on the AF100. We all felt liberated! We can shoot wide again! We loved shooting wide. Philip and I spent way too much time with our 7-14 lenses, shooting fully wide 7mm. It was awesome. But, you're right -- those shots don't have that same "filmic" vibe as the shallow-DOF shots.
I've seen some of Philip's work on the 5D/7D projected on a large screen at SxSW, and it was awesome. But it also largely ignored the wide shots -- because that's what the DSLR doesn't do well. Any time there was anything wide, it was either a stationary shot, or totally wide-open so that the background wouldn't alias (because Philip knows very well the limitations of what the DSLR doesn't do well, and avoids those). But with the AF100 those restrictions were lifted, so we got many more wide shots, and I don't know that that's what people really, deep down, wanted to see? Maybe Philip should go out and shoot DSLR-style with the AF100, doing one of his people-closeup films... I think the results would be quite interesting with that.