Edius 5 or Edius Neo 2 Booster 24p pulldown removal

So you're saying that because Neo Scene converts the original MTS file to another format that is much larger - that in itself makes it a higher quality file than the original MTS file and should have less artifacts? That's sorta like saying, import a 640x480 JPG 100k photo into Photoshop and then export is as a 9MB 640x480TIFF file and saying that because it has a much bigger file size the TIFF file is a higher quality file than the original JPG file and should look better and have less artifacts. Is that what you're trying to say? I hope not.

The original MTS file should look better than the Neo Scene file because its only been compressed once. The Neo Scene file has been compressed twice and that 2nd compression was done on the original MTS file that its being compared to.

It's definitely a field-based artifact because when I imported the Neo Scene file Eduis defaulted it as a top field file and not progressive even though it was progressive and the project was progressive. The interlace artifact was there until I right-clicked on Properties and selected Progressive. When you try and select Progressive on the original MTS file in the timeline it falls apart and has all sorts of interlace and field order problems.

My theory is that Grass Valley/Canopus has it stuck in Top Field mode even when you export and want progressive on the MTS files that are 60i with the 24p embedded. It doesn't do that last step which is to extract it to 24p and also switch it from Top Field to Progressive. It extracts the 24p file but leave the Top Field on with no way to turn it off.

As far as the Canopus HQ AVI export, talk about a large file geez, I couldn't even play that back properly with Windows Media Player as it was going at twice the framerate and the player controls on WMP wouldn't work properly either. Tried VLC Player but that wouldn't open it. Do I have to install a Canopus codec somewhere? This is on a new Quad-Core computer that has no problem playing everything else I've tried even the original MTS files.

So you're saying that the only way to get a clean file out of Edius using MTS GH1 files is to export using Canopus HQ AVI? Which you then have to convert to whatever file format you were wanting to use in the first place.

Just did the test, still has the interlace artifact. Tried both Canopus HQ Fine and Standard.

Just like I said in my previous post, I can import the Neo Scene file into Edius and export it to any format I want and there will be no interlace artifact.

It's also very easy to see what video files are going to have the interlace artifact and which one won't simply by putting them into the timeline. Click frame by frame and you will see the interlace artifact on every other frame looking at the Edius Video Display.

Problem with using Neo Scene as a solution is that Edius crushed the blacks down a good amount on that Neo Scene processed file. Looks to be about the same amount as a Setup level which would be 7.5IRE. The same Neo Scene clip works fine in Sony Vegas, no blacks crushed.

Randy
 
What I'm saying is:

1. When I use Edius, it correctly reverse telecines the FHD AVCHD files from the GH1. I've confirmed this to my own satisfaction with many clips that have lots of fast motion where interlacing artifacts are very obvious. Every other player/editor I tried screwed up the reverse telecine on those clips, but Edius handled it correctly in playing, editing, and exporting. Edius may have some other problems, but in my experience it reverse telecines correctly.

2. The shimmering in Blackout's clips is not an interlacing artifact, it's some other problem.

3. I suspect the shimmering in Blackout's clips is due to scaling or compression.

And to respond to your other points... Blackout said that neither the neoscened file nor the original MTS file have the shimmering but the highly compressed file that he exported from Edius and then uploaded to youtube does. So either this is a problem with Edius (as he claims) or it could be a problem with the compression/format used when exporting from Edius or it could be caused by youtube's recoding. Right? And then the next thing to try is to export from Edius to a less compressed format like Canopus HQ. Make sense?
 
It has nothing to do with motion, it does that correctly. Reread my posts, I never said it was a problem with motion. The artifact (let's drop "interlaced" since that seems to put you off in the wrong direction) shows up on the edges of objects which the screen grabs I posted show. If you don't see the difference in those two images and the rough edges on the cans and boxes on the 2nd image then that's why you don't understand what we are talking about.

Look at my images and videos not Blackout's since I explained everything based on my images and videos and not his.

It doesn't matter what Blackout said in his posts, read mine, look at the supporting evidence and you should see that something is wrong with Edius.

I already tested everything you asked, reread my posts, it's all there and so is the edge (lets call it that now) artifact. I already tested the export from Edius using Canopus HQ and gave you an answer in my last post that it didn't' work.

Ok, it's an Edge Artifact now that should be less confusing.

Randy
 
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Since Blackout started this thread on the topic of Edius pulldown removal for his footage, and the shimmering artifacts that he has in his footage, I've been replying on that topic. And I think we can all agree that what Blackout says in his own thread about his own problem is relevant in that thread :)

Turning now to your footage... the only problem I see in your footage is the jaggy edge on some of your objects. I only see that in my own GH1 footage when I output to a lower resolution or to an interlaced format at a lower bit rate (eg., NTSC DVD). Why don't you take a 10 second clip with your GH1 that illustrates the problem and post the original 10 second MTS file so I can see what happens?
 
But I went to the trouble to show proof and Blackout agreed, so you should be paying attention to that now.

I've already shown examples at full 1080 24p resolution which was also explained in my previous posts on this thread. I'm not reducing resolution. Edius will add a "jagged edge" to ANY 1080 GH1 MTS file you run through it no matter how you export it, end of story.

The "jagged edge" can also be seen in the Edius timeline before any exporting, just go one frame at a time though the MTS clip on the timeline and the jagged edge will alternate on and off with each frame advance.

You can download my original MTS file with the cans and boxes in it, the one I used for the 1080 24p screen grabs and the examples in this thread, and do the same tests I did yourself, I don't need to do them again.

Here is the link to the original MTS file

http://www.vimeo.com/10839961

This original MTS file plays edge-artifact free on Windows Media Player on my Quad Core Windows 7 64bit Desktop. Run it through Edius and keep it at 1080 24p on export and it will have the edge artifacts.

Randy
 
noirist... the problem I and cave are having is the same... whatever you want to call it... edge details are being rendered messed up from GH1 1080 24p footage out of edius neo booster 2, and I have confirmed the same problem exists with the main version of edius. It DOES not handle pulldown correctly as you say - it may appear as if it does on very many scenes, but get some wide detail in there and it shows its ugliness. It IS edius doing this when using native mts files from the gh1, it is not the compression to mpeg4 as if you put a neoscene file in there it doesn't happen..... I upped the bandwidth quite a bit, and again, files from neoscene compressed out to mpeg4 and to youtube just fine... it is the edius native edits that are not working and having this weird artifact.

If you shoot all medium shots, it LOOKS like edius is working to correctly remove pulldown, because you don't see the artifacts, but it is not, as cavemans detailed footage and my footage clearly shows. Now unless you have some super secret setting that you are not telling us, this is NOT working and it is Edius adding the artifact or handling the footage incorrectly. Pure logic and the examples show this.

The motion is different too... a scene with cars passing by looks very different having pulldown removed with neoscene than rendering it straight out from edius... there is a slight, but definite change in the motion characteristics of objects moving from left to right or right ot left in frame.

Please, don't take this as any sort of attack on you. You turned me on to the idea of using edius in the first place and I was very excited about it as I am a long time fan of canopus (used Dvstorm2 for years) I'm just saying Edius as it stands, with the settings I have tried, does not work with native GH1 1080 footage and leaves artifacts that are just not acceptable for professional work.

I am going to go back to grass valley with some of this info or lead them to this thread and see if they have any interest in looking at it. It is NOT occurring in the compressing to mpeg 4 or avc stage. It is happening before that even if I render to canopus codec.

Also, cave, please use youtube to show your clip because vimeo automatically scaled it back down to 1280 x 720p so I am seeing artifacts from upscaling on a 1080p monitor. Nevere thought I'd say it but youtube seems to have surpassed vimeos quality at this point in time and offers true 1080p, and even compresses, it handles it fairly well from properly encoded mp4s at about a 15mbit rate.
 
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Cavemandude said:
Here is a screen grab of what the interlace artifact looks like though this is an exaggerated version of it. It mainly shows up around thin edges of objects like the thin edge of the cans in this pic. So, when you play it back you'll see movement from the interlace that is not taken out correctly when converting the original MTS file. Play the original MTS file and you should see interlace artifacts depending on what's in the shot.

I remember when I first got my GH1 back in Dec 09 I saw this interlace artifact when playing back the 1080 60i 24p embedded MTS files from the GH1 and that's when I decided to shoot 720 60p for everything so I wouldn't have to deal with that issue.

If you use 720 60p MTS files and edit 720 24p in Edius Neo there are no artifacts.

Randy
Click to expand...
1. At what point in your clip did you pull your screen grab with the jaggy (ie., how many seconds into the clip)?

2. Please upload the neoscened file to vimeo (my trial expired).
 
That screen grab was taken in the first couple seconds from the beginning but it doesn't matter since it it there throughout the entire video. I just picked a spot where it was the most obvious with the thin edges of the cans. I used Windows Media Player to playback the clip for the screen grabs since it was able to play the original MTS file without the edge artifact and played the Edius rendered file with the edge artifact. It also played the Neo Scene file without the artifact and the same Neo Scene file with the edge artifact after it was exported from Edius.

You can also see the edge artifact in the Edius timeline but it alternates on and off every other frame, just click the 1 frame advance button to see this. I'm using both Edius 5.5 and Edius Neo 2.5 Booster and seeing the same thing on 2 different computers.

This edge artifact is always there on every frame, it's not a "sometimes it there" kind of artifact. It's just harder to see unless you have an object with a thin edge and high contrast. If you look more closely at the other less obvious parts of the screen grab I made you can see it is on all the edges in the image, even the low contrast edges.

Randy
 
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Here is a link to the Neo Scene file after exporting it from Sony Vegas which didn't add the edge artifact. I didn't upload just the Neo Scene file to Vimeo but this will work just as well for comparisons.

http://www.vimeo.com/10893081

Or just Neo Scene the original MTS file yourself since you can download that MTS file.

Randy
 
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Cavemandude said:
That screen grab was taken in the first couple seconds from the beginning but it doesn't matter since it it there throughout the entire video. I just picked a spot where it was the most obvious with the thin edges of the cans. I used Windows Media Player to playback the clip for the screen grabs since it was able to play the original MTS file without the edge artifact and played the Edius rendered file with the edge artifact. It also played the Neo Scene file without the artifact and the same Neo Scene file with the edge artifact after it was exported from Edius.
Randy
Click to expand...
WMP does not deinterlace or reverse telecine. So of course the clips from the GH1 will have horrible interlacing artifacts in WMP.
 
You're still stuck on the interlaced stuff again, that's not the problem, so you need to drop anything related to that. An intervention may be needed here...

Maybe on your computer but playing back the original MTS file with Windows Media Player is solid as a rock with no interlace issues and no edge artifacts on my Windows 7 64bit Quad Core computer. Was I surprised, yes, but if I try to play the same original MTS file on my Windows XP Dual Core laptop then the interlacing is noticeable just like when you play an interlaced DV file with WMP. Again, that is not the issue and that interlacing doesn't bother me when I see it. The edge artifact is completely different and it doesn't matter whether you see interlacing or not.

Remember again, this is not an interlace (when the entire frame shows both fields separated with comb effects) issue you still need to get that out of your head. It's an edge artifact issue on progressive frame video clips and I could have done the same screen grab comparison from the Edius Timeline/Video Display and shown the same artifacts with the original MTS file without using WMP. WMP is not the problem or causing the problem so lets not get started with that.

Drop the interlace stuff, its not what I'm talking about, and you may understand the real problem here and that is edge artifacts on progressive frame video clips that can be seen on any video player and any computer.

Install the Neo Scene Trial on another computer and try it. The Neo Scene file I have is 1GB is size so I'm not going to upload that to Vimeo, at least not right now since it really isn't necessary and you have access to a Neo Scene file I made that went though Vegas and that didn't alter the way it looks and it's still at full resolution.

Randy
 
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Just to clear up a few things. Windows 7 can play back native GH1 1080p files very well. Any earlier version of windows can not, and it either crashes or is a mess. But that is not what we are talking about here, we are talking about the artifacts edius creates when it tries to handle gh1 1080p files and output them to a true 24p. It does not work correctly and as cave said, the artifact is everywhere in the file, not just random in a spot or too. It shows up on all fine detail edges.
 
Guess I'll post my test images/videos/results on the Edius forum at Grass Valley and see how confused they get.

Randy
 
Already started a thread cave:

http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16016


If you want to add to that with your examples that would be great. Their first response was the same "oh it must be the compression or youtube or vimeo doing that" when it is not, it is IN the rendered out file no matter what codec I sue or how high the bitrate or quality i set, it is also NOT in the rendered file nor on youtube if neoscene is used to remove pulldown, so obviously the issue is with how edius is handling the footage.

I am trying to get them to understand this I don't know why it's so difficult a concept to grasp. I;'m sure one of their engineers could take a peek and go.. 'ooopsy yeah we are handling something wrong here'

Other than that Edius is great with how smoothly it handle the footage, but this is a huge flaw.. you just cant use the output.
 
As it stands now it seems that if you are on the PC you are forced to buy neoscene to make any use of your GH1 in 1080 24p mode.
 
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