Edius 5 or Edius Neo 2 Booster 24p pulldown removal

99% of the people using Edius with the GH1 also think it works perfect but only a couple of us know better.

Randy
 
Yes.. I have a feeling that is the case. I thought it worked at first too. Many people are not critical viewers of footage.
 
Ok, I am in the process of uploading three clips to show the Edius folks cause they just don't seem to get it, and they keep thinking the compression to mpeg4 or avc or youtube is doing it, which it is absolutely not.

I am uploading an original raw gh1 .mts clip, that is a nice wide shot with people walking and lots of fine detail.

I am then uploading the mess that is produced when rendering to a 24p mpeg4 file out of edius. (it's the same mess even if I chose render to uncompressed)

I am them uploading the same clip rendered out of edius the same way, but with neoscene pulldown removed first, and it looks perfect. So compressing to mp4 is NOT the culprit, nor youtube nor vimeo, nor the evil fairy of joojoo.

So the obvious result is Edius is not doing the pulldown from the 24p encased in 60i on ghs1 mts files correctly by ANY sense of the word. They seem to take the official stance that it does handle it, but i think they are just confused.

I have tried every combination of toying with settings and have not been able to correct this or make it work - yet still people insist it works flawlessly.... I say they are being fooled by only doing it on lower detail clips. The odd thing is, the people walking around in this clip, look ok, it loks like the pulldown was done correctly, they don't exhibit the obvious interlace mess of incorrect pulldown - yet all edges of all fine detail do exhibit interlace like shimmering.

Stay tuned.. I will have the clip links up in a bit.
 
Here you go boys and girls:

http://blackout.com/ediusproblems

In there you will find three clips, the original raw gh1 .mts:
http://blackout.com/ediusproblems/original-gh1-NYC-1080.MTS

That same clip imported into an Edius 24p timeline and rendered out to mpeg4 (15mbit):
http://blackout.com/ediusproblems/edius-gh1-NYC-1080-detail-shimmer-problem.mp4

BLECH! MESS!

Now that same clip, with the pulldown removed via neoscene, then placed in the Edius timeline same as the original was, and rendered out to the same mpeg4 same bitrate:
http://blackout.com/ediusproblems/edius-gh1-NYC-1080-sameclip-neoscened.mp4

Oh my goodness. Looks great (except the tiny stutter at the very start.. thats the only issue with neoscene)

So, all of you who say Edius.. WHATEVER version.. neo 2 booster, 4, 5.. 5.11..... works perfectly with GH1 1080p footage and removes pulldown perfectly...

There ya go, theres the original gh1 file, you show me how....
 
That's why you should stop calling it an interlace problem because it actually does deinterlace it otherwise you would see all sorts of movement artifacts over the entire frame. That's also why people keep saying there is nothing wrong because they are looking for these movement artifacts only. It's really an edge artifact problem which I think is caused by how it interprets the field order since Edius thought that the Neo Scene clip had a top field order when it was actually progressive.

There is also a problem of Edius lowering the black levels of any Neo Scene clip when you import it so it is still not a complete solution to just use Neo Scene in Edius because you will have to color correct every clip to get it back the original video levels.

Now Sony Vegas 9.0d is a complete solution since there is no edge artifacts and no black level change on imported Neo Scene clips. So that is what I'll be using for now until they can correct what is wrong with Edius.

I also have Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 but I haven't tried to load the Neo Scene clip into that yet since it has limited HD 24p options compared to CS4 and now CS5.

Randy
 
You should also point out that you don't even have to render/export the original MTS clip from Edius since you can see the edge artifact in the timeline.

So basically anyone that wants to see it can download my original MTS file with the cans or your original MTS file and put it in the Edius timeline and see it. Now in the timeline, the edge artifact is on every other frame for some reason and I think this is maybe a clue to what the problem is but it's ends up on every frame when you export it to any format.

Randy
 
Yes.... I posted this to the grass valley forums and an engineer is looking at it as we speak... pray to the holy Okapi they can finally understand and give some sort of an answer.. even if that answer is the dreaded...

"hmmmm well yes we don't support the gh1 in 1080 mode"

laugh...
 
Latest update:

Grass Valley support was stumped and has responded that sent the clips up to the engineering team in Japan, so hopefully we'll hear something back soon!
 
Blackout said:
Latest update:

Grass Valley support was stumped and has responded that sent the clips up to the engineering team in Japan, so hopefully we'll hear something back soon!
Click to expand...

They have a crack team that can get things fixed like this quickly in Japan... Now, if you asked for something like full keyframable alpha support.... hehe
 
So I just want automatic removal of the stupid 60i wrapper and true editing of the 24p video right from the native file! That't it! That's the gold.
 
Cavemandude said:
That's why you should stop calling it an interlace problem because it actually does deinterlace it otherwise you would see all sorts of movement artifacts over the entire frame. That's also why people keep saying there is nothing wrong because they are looking for these movement artifacts only. It's really an edge artifact problem which I think is caused by how it interprets the field order since Edius thought that the Neo Scene clip had a top field order when it was actually progressive.

There is also a problem of Edius lowering the black levels of any Neo Scene clip when you import it so it is still not a complete solution to just use Neo Scene in Edius because you will have to color correct every clip to get it back the original video levels.

Now Sony Vegas 9.0d is a complete solution since there is no edge artifacts and no black level change on imported Neo Scene clips. So that is what I'll be using for now until they can correct what is wrong with Edius.

I also have Adobe Premiere Pro CS3 but I haven't tried to load the Neo Scene clip into that yet since it has limited HD 24p options compared to CS4 and now CS5.

Randy
Click to expand...

Remember my post on page 2? Thats what I said - its not an interlace artefact, because it removes pulldown correctly. The issue is, that it obviously interpolates the seemingly missing half of the frame and thats why you get softer edges - because interpolating means less vertical resolution.

best regards, Gunther

I am very curious if they can solve the problem - I would be very interested in a native workflow.
 
Haven't heard back from them yet. Again they said they have sent the issue to the engineers in Japan in this thread:

http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...ad.php?t=16016

It may be beneficial for all of you who would like to use this program to make your voices heard. If they know many GH1 users want this, they will fix it. The whole Edius Neo 2 Booster is aimed at the Panasonic market and included with some (or was) Panasonic avchd cameras.
 
Blackout said:
Haven't heard back from them yet. Again they said they have sent the issue to the engineers in Japan in this thread:

http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...ad.php?t=16016

It may be beneficial for all of you who would like to use this program to make your voices heard. If they know many GH1 users want this, they will fix it. The whole Edius Neo 2 Booster is aimed at the Panasonic market and included with some (or was) Panasonic avchd cameras.
Click to expand...


I have already pointed them to this issue back in June last year. My request back then was to just add to the (great!) Canopus HQ converter utility the "pulldown" button. This should be fairly easy as something like that is already there (although not working properly). Back then they said "maybe, lets see"
 
Blackout said:
Haven't heard back from them yet. Again they said they have sent the issue to the engineers in Japan in this thread:

http://ediusforum.grassvalley.com/fo...ad.php?t=16016

It may be beneficial for all of you who would like to use this program to make your voices heard. If they know many GH1 users want this, they will fix it. The whole Edius Neo 2 Booster is aimed at the Panasonic market and included with some (or was) Panasonic avchd cameras.
Click to expand...

Broken link
 
GV replied: "The engineers have looked at this issue and say that currently there is no flag in the stream produced by the Panasonic GH1 to flag it for 24p/pulldown removal.
When you import the file in EDIUS/Neo it cannot tell what the file is so it cannot do a pulldown removal.
The engineers are looking in to this and are looking in to ways to solve this issue.

For now regrettably you have to remove the pulldown with a thirdparty application.
When there is an update on this issue it will be posted on the forum.
We thank you all for bringing this to our attention."


So... no flag for pulldown from Panasonic. Maybe we could get that flag added in the firmware hack?
 
Would adding a flag really matter anyways? If the flag was there, do you think Edius could actually do the pulldown removal in the timeline and still maintain all the real-time features of editing original AVCHD MTS files from the GH1? If it were as easy as adding a flag they could just have that as an option to turn on manually when you right-click on a video clip and open the Properties menu. It ain't going to happen anytime soon if at all.

Maybe a first step would be to get their own AVCHD2HQ converter software, that comes with Edius, to do a proper pulldown conversion on the GH1 MTS files so at least they don't have to say "use a third-party application" to get that part done.

Looks like TMPGEnc is going to be my favorite way to remove pulldown on GH1 files since it has a built-in cuts-only editor to trim clips, if needed, before conversion. It can use the CineForm HD codec that Neo Scene uses and export AVI files, even the Canopus HQ codec that comes with Edius. It has many other output formats, filters and converts ALL the frames, even the ones at the beginning of each clip unlike Neo Scene. Batch rendering too.

Randy
 
Actually... Yes. If the file isn't flagged for pulldown removal then adding the flag would do it automatically. or they could add it in the properties tab like you suggest.
Just like the flag for 24p in the DVX100 footage.
 
randy, could your black-crushing issue be caused by having your color range set to 'white' instead of 'super white'? if you're only using edius' default settings that is probably the case.
 
Yes, that is what the problem was. Someone had posted that as a solution in the Grass valley forum a while back and it worked.

After changing the "Color Range for YCbCr clip" setting from Super White to White in the Application Settings and making a new project, I loaded the Neo Scene clip and the black levels are the same as the original MTS clip. Now when I right-click on Properties for the Neo Scene clip it now shows White instead of Super White.

I also loaded the the original MTS clip in the same project and that remains Super White when you click on its Properties but the black level is correct so no big deal there.

Wonder why you can't change this setting on each individual clip, it's always grayed out.

Randy
 
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