Edius 5 or Edius Neo 2 Booster 24p pulldown removal

Blackout

Blackout

Veteran
I have been looking for an answer scattered in threads on different topics so I thought I would start a topic specifically:

Does anyone out there know if Edius 5 or Edius Neo 2 Booster can properly edit native gh1 mts files and remove the pulldown? if so, please explain your exact settings and workflow.

I have not tried Edius 5 yet but I have been toying with Edius Neo 2 Booster for many many hours and it seems like it just might work but then I always get little interlace errors SOMEWHERE in a project that is more than one clip long.

Samples so far that I have tried:

Vimeo


http://vimeo.com/10101944


Youtube 1080p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc-WOlv61Q&hd=1


I actually made it a little further than those two clips but haven't uploaded them yet.
 
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I use Edius 4 and it works perfectly removing pulldown from GH 1 1080p footage. When I render to mpeg 2 for DVD at 24p it even gives you a choice to add the pulldown to the rendered file which I never do of course. Neo2 Booster should be even better at this task.
 
Yes, Neo 2 Booster removes pulldown from the GH1 FHD AVCHD clips perfectly for me. Here's what I do:

1. Create a custom preset for my FHD AVCHD files from the GH1. The settings I use are:

Hardware : Generic OHCI
Video
Frame size : 1920 x 1080
Frame rate : 23.98( 24000/1001 )
Pixel aspect : 1.0000
Field order : Progressive
Audio
Rate : 48000Hz
Sample size : 16 Bit
Channel : 2
Setup
Render format : Canopus HQ Standard
TC preset : 00:00:00:00
TC mode :
Total length : --:--:--:--
Over Scan Size : 0 %
Audio Reference Level : -20.0 dB
Panning mode : Standard
Color space conversion : Standard
Track
V : 0 VA : 1
T : 1 A : 1

2. Create a project using my FHD preset above. Use "Add file" to add the MTS files from the GH1 into the bin and then add them to the timeline. Don't change any of the clip settings. The clips should all have the following properties: Size 1920x1080, Aspect 1.0000 (16:9), Color Super White, Field Order: Top Field First, Stream Type H.264/AVC, Frame Rate 29.97.

3. When I export using "print to file", I disable conversion so that the exported file will adhere to the project settings (size 1920x1080 rate 23.98 field order progressive).

Following this workflow for single clips or multiple clips on the same timeline (with and without disolve), I haven't seen a single interlacing artifact, either in the Edius player or when I play the exported clips with WMP or Quicktime, or when I upload to vimeo or youtube.

4. To create an SD NTSC DVD, there's an additional step - you must first convert your progressive footage to interlaced footage before you can Burn to disc with Edius. To convert a 23.98p project to 59.94i (frame rate 29.97 field order top field first), you have to choose between "frame blending" and "nearest frame". For motion intensive footage, frame blending can create what look like interlacing artifacts (or extreme and unnatural motion blur), so I prefer using nearest frame for that kind of footage even though it distorts the cadence.

Hope this helps...
 
On your step 3 you need to watch out and make sure it's not doing "frame blending" by default since it looks like what it always does. Because of this, I've always "enabled conversion" and manually set the it to "Nearest Frame" since I've noticed artifacts when not doing this which was caused by frame blending.

Randy
 
Cavemandude said:
On your step 3 you need to watch out and make sure it's not doing "frame blending" by default since it looks like what it always does. Because of this, I've always "enabled conversion" and manually set the it to "Nearest Frame" since I've noticed artifacts when not doing this which was caused by frame blending.

Randy
Click to expand...
I've tried it both ways (blending vs. nearest) and even when I A/B the individual frames from both versions I honestly don't see a difference when going from a 23.98p project to 23.98p output. Whenever the export changes the frame rate, for example, when exporting a 23.98p project to 59.94i, then I definitely see a difference and like you strongly prefer nearest frame.
 
Ok guys, something is not right here, because I have done this exact workflow and while it SEEMS like it is outputting the perfect 1080 24p. It is not.. there are TINY interlace errors of sorts in details on wide shots that do NOT occur with a pulldown removal of the same scene done via neoscene.

I guess I am going to have to do a lengthy double upload of a timeline edited natively in edius neo 2 booster, and then one edited with pulldown removal done by neoscene.

If you look at my 1080p clip on youtube (done at the exact settings specified by noirist above)
I see some judder issues with the cars and tram even in the first wide scene of NYC rossevelt island, and then when I fade into the night seen, take a look at the tiny empire stae building in the background, it is not solid, it is doing some weird flicker interlace artifact... barely noticeable but there.. then in the wide shot with the drug dealer looking guy by the pole... look at the trees in the background... flickering, even though the motion of the city people walking looks correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc-WOlv61Q&hd=1

Also... I THINK I downloaded Edius Neo 2 Booster trial, but in the info about menu, it says nothing about 'booster' anywhere.
 
The biggest problem that I see in your youtube upload is in the daylight city street scene from 1:54 to 2:28. So if it were me, I'd triple check that clip in your Edius project to make sure you imported the original MTS file from your GH1 and you didn't accidentally change its properties in some way. Then I'd do the whole project over from scratch, first just with that clip, make sure it renders correctly, and then add a clip before, make sure it still renders correctly, then add another clip, make sure it still renders correctly, and so on. That way you can find out exactly where the problem happens.
 
Did this, and fixed all the stutters in the city clips... but I still notice that there are artifacts in wide scenes introduced by doing edius booster edits exporting as you have explained to a 23.98 mpeg 4. Shoot wide with high details, and I notice some flickering going on in certain areas that i don't when removing pulldown with neoscene. I haven't had time yet to do the exact same edit from the neoscene pulldown removal files that read as 23.976 and the neo 2 booster native edited files from the original gh1 mts files. I am seeing a difference in quality, however slight, and some artifacts on the neo 2 booster stuff.

Could it be the gh1 is 23.976 and edius is making it 23.98 that's the problem?
 
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just posted there... I hope I get an answer to this as I would LOVE for a program to handle this natively rather than have to do pulldown first.
 
Blackout said:
Could it be the gh1 is 23.976 and edius is making it 23.98 that's the problem?
Click to expand...
Or maybe Edius rounds the frame rates to two decimal places for display purposes, so 23.976 is really 23.976 to Edius but they display it as 23.98?

I've seen a lot of of obvious interlacing artifacts since getting my GH1. Neoscene definitely has them. Edius definitely doesn't. So I'm inclined to give Edius the benefit of the doubt regarding subtle interlacing artifacts at this point and look elsewhere. But there's certainly no harm in posting your question in the Edius forums, namely, is 23.98 really 23.98 or 23.976 in Edius Neo?

BTW, what was the problem with your original footage? How did you fix it in the new project?
 
Quick question... How does the footage look played back from the camera?



To me, the bad part of the clip wasn't the jittery trees behind the drug dealer lookin dude... The bad part was the terribly choppy slo-mo of the bird flying up with the fast pan being blocky and basically terrible.
 
Blackout said:
Ok guys, something is not right here, because I have done this exact workflow and while it SEEMS like it is outputting the perfect 1080 24p. It is not.. there are TINY interlace errors of sorts in details on wide shots that do NOT occur with a pulldown removal of the same scene done via neoscene.

I guess I am going to have to do a lengthy double upload of a timeline edited natively in edius neo 2 booster, and then one edited with pulldown removal done by neoscene.

If you look at my 1080p clip on youtube (done at the exact settings specified by noirist above)
I see some judder issues with the cars and tram even in the first wide scene of NYC rossevelt island, and then when I fade into the night seen, take a look at the tiny empire stae building in the background, it is not solid, it is doing some weird flicker interlace artifact... barely noticeable but there.. then in the wide shot with the drug dealer looking guy by the pole... look at the trees in the background... flickering, even though the motion of the city people walking looks correct.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc-WOlv61Q&hd=1

Also... I THINK I downloaded Edius Neo 2 Booster trial, but in the info about menu, it says nothing about 'booster' anywhere.
Click to expand...

Dear Blackout, I also thought initially that Edius would remove pulldown natively like noirist. But I have to confirm your findings that it is not (I am using Edius Neo 2). This is only noticable if you have a 1920x1080 monitor. What Edius correctly does, is to place the correct half - frame (with correct pulldown) into the timeline. But it only uses half of the vertical resolution and scales it up (as Edius thinks the material initiates from a 60i stream, that's what it reads in the file information).

If you export this material, it flickers and only has half of the vertical resolution unfortunately.

Thats why I still stick to VoltaicHD although I would very much prefer a native Edius workflow.

BTW, its got nothing to do with 23.976 or 23.98 ....

best regards, Gunther
 
GMC said:
Dear Blackout, I also thought initially that Edius would remove pulldown natively like noirist. But I have to confirm your findings that it is not (I am using Edius Neo 2). This is only noticable if you have a 1920x1080 monitor. What Edius correctly does, is to place the correct half - frame (with correct pulldown) into the timeline. But it only uses half of the vertical resolution and scales it up (as Edius thinks the material initiates from a 60i stream, that's what it reads in the file information).

If you export this material, it flickers and only has half of the vertical resolution unfortunately.

Thats why I still stick to VoltaicHD although I would very much prefer a native Edius workflow.

BTW, its got nothing to do with 23.976 or 23.98 ....

best regards, Gunther
Click to expand...
That's an extraordinary claim, that Edius "only uses half of the vertical resolution and scales it up"! Are you saying that Edius displays/renders/exports 1080p footage from the GH1 as 1920x540? What led you to that conclusion?
 
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GMC said:
Dear Blackout, I also thought initially that Edius would remove pulldown natively like noirist. But I have to confirm your findings that it is not (I am using Edius Neo 2). This is only noticable if you have a 1920x1080 monitor. What Edius correctly does, is to place the correct half - frame (with correct pulldown) into the timeline. But it only uses half of the vertical resolution and scales it up (as Edius thinks the material initiates from a 60i stream, that's what it reads in the file information).

If you export this material, it flickers and only has half of the vertical resolution unfortunately.

Thats why I still stick to VoltaicHD although I would very much prefer a native Edius workflow.

BTW, its got nothing to do with 23.976 or 23.98 ....

best regards, Gunther
Click to expand...

This makes me cry.

There IS something weird going on and I don't know exactly what. I know that in my original .mts files played from the camera to a hd-tv with a hdmi hookup, there is no flicker in the trees behind the drug dealer... they are solid... I know that in the neoscene conversion, they are solid... so I am tending to think edius is doing something wrong... but I WANT it to work so bad! I want to think I have something set wrong....
 
Blackout said:
This makes me cry.

There IS something weird going on and I don't know exactly what. I know that in my original .mts files played from the camera to a hd-tv with a hdmi hookup, there is no flicker in the trees behind the drug dealer... they are solid... I know that in the neoscene conversion, they are solid... so I am tending to think edius is doing something wrong... but I WANT it to work so bad! I want to think I have something set wrong....
Click to expand...


Really.. in the clip you posted overall the footage looked perfect. So, even if you had to extract sections that acted "weird" and do pulldown with alternative software it would still save you a TON of time and effort to edit in Edius Neo2.5/ Edius 5.5.
 
It IS a huge time saver it if worked all the time but if HALF of my footage is going to glitch in a long edit and I have to pull it out and put it back then the time saving is all lost.
 
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