Edius 5 or Edius Neo 2 Booster 24p pulldown removal

noirist said:
Yes, Neo 2 Booster removes pulldown from the GH1 FHD AVCHD clips perfectly for me. Here's what I do:

1. Create a custom preset for my FHD AVCHD files from the GH1. The settings I use are:

Hardware : Generic OHCI
Video
Frame size : 1920 x 1080
Frame rate : 23.98( 24000/1001 )
Pixel aspect : 1.0000
Field order : Progressive
Audio
Rate : 48000Hz
Sample size : 16 Bit
Channel : 2
Setup
Render format : Canopus HQ Standard
TC preset : 00:00:00:00
TC mode :
Total length : --:--:--:--
Over Scan Size : 0 %
Audio Reference Level : -20.0 dB
Panning mode : Standard
Color space conversion : Standard
Track
V : 0 VA : 1
T : 1 A : 1

2. Create a project using my FHD preset above. Use "Add file" to add the MTS files from the GH1 into the bin and then add them to the timeline. Don't change any of the clip settings. The clips should all have the following properties: Size 1920x1080, Aspect 1.0000 (16:9), Color Super White, Field Order: Top Field First, Stream Type H.264/AVC, Frame Rate 29.97.

3. When I export using "print to file", I disable conversion so that the exported file will adhere to the project settings (size 1920x1080 rate 23.98 field order progressive).

Following this workflow for single clips or multiple clips on the same timeline (with and without disolve), I haven't seen a single interlacing artifact, either in the Edius player or when I play the exported clips with WMP or Quicktime, or when I upload to vimeo or youtube.

4. To create an SD NTSC DVD, there's an additional step - you must first convert your progressive footage to interlaced footage before you can Burn to disc with Edius. To convert a 23.98p project to 59.94i (frame rate 29.97 field order top field first), you have to choose between "frame blending" and "nearest frame". For motion intensive footage, frame blending can create what look like interlacing artifacts (or extreme and unnatural motion blur), so I prefer using nearest frame for that kind of footage even though it distorts the cadence.

Hope this helps...
Click to expand...

This does NOT work. It looks like it does... but it leaves artifacts in wide detail that look like interlace fringes.

See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvw8FVCsfRE&hd=1

Done the EXACT way you explain... but LOOK at the silverware on the table from 0:14 to 0:33

MESS. It does NOT look like that when going directly from the camera hdmi to a screen, nor when using neoscene to remove pulldown.

Edius is doing SOMETHING WRONG.
 
So why can't you just upload the original MTS file on this last video you posted to Vimeo so that I and others can download the original MTS file also and see what we can do?

I do see the shimmering you are talking about but I also see that same shimmer when I play back the clip I posted above even from the original MTS file. Right at the beginning look at the thin silver rim of the two cans in the middle, same shimmer effect on the original MTS file processed by Vimeo and the same effect with the one processed in Edius Neo then Vimeo.

Randy
 
Problem is that is is a huge 4gig+ mts file. I guess I could upload it somewhere. What I am saying is when I REMOVE pulldown... the jumping interlace shimmer is gone, which is what any proper editing program worth it's salt should do.

Edius is NOT handling pulldown removal correctly.... that is my point.
 
How do you explain that I uploaded the original MTS file to Vimeo and still have that shimmering on the cans when played back on Vimeo?

Randy
 
Just was watching some of that new Kirstie Alley show on A&E and that shimmering effect was all over the place in a scene inside a grocery store. In fact, I see this artifact all the time on shows that shoot with a "film look" so it's not just a GH1 or Edius Neo problem.

Randy
 
So I went ahead an downloaded the trial version of Neo Scene and ran the clip I used above and was able to see the difference in the can rims. It got rid of the shimmering but it is just as choppy as the original and the one from Edius Neo when playing it back. You'll have to use Sony Vegas Pro 9.0 if you want it to be less choppy.

Randy
 
I took the clip that I converted in Neo Scene and added to a 1080 24p timeline in Edius Neo and could see right away the shimmer was added back to this clip just by looking at a single frame. Rendered it out and it was back while playing it so that tells me it's anything you put through Edius Neo at 1080 24p and not that Edius is doing the pulldown wrong on a GH1 MTS file.

Not sure if I've seen this on 720 60p files that I've converted to 720 24p in Eduis Neo since that is mostly what I shoot.

Randy
 
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Looks like Edius Neo does a pseudo deinterlacing of a the 60i file when converting it to true 24p file. It does deinterlace it and make it a progressive 24p file but it keeps the "interlace artifact" that it had when it was original interlaced 60i MTS file.

You should be able to see this interlace artifact by playing the original 1080 60i (24p embedded) MTS file with a video player (Splash Lite works well) so if you aren't seeing it you must be using a player that hides it somehow but I'm not sure how that could happen.

Neo Scene promotes that is does Telecine removal - 24p frame extraction from 60i so I assume that this also deinterlaces the file correctly to get rid of any interlace artifacts without resolution loss. They also promote that Neo Scene deinterlaces 60i to 30p so it looks like they know how to deinterlace correctly.

I did notice that Neo Scene didn't remove this shimmer artifact on the first couple frames though, looks like it just didn't do any conversion but I guess this is the bug everyone is talking about with this program.

Randy
 
Here is a screen grab of what the interlace artifact looks like though this is an exaggerated version of it. It mainly shows up around thin edges of objects like the thin edge of the cans in this pic. So, when you play it back you'll see movement from the interlace that is not taken out correctly when converting the original MTS file. Play the original MTS file and you should see interlace artifacts depending on what's in the shot.

I remember when I first got my GH1 back in Dec 09 I saw this interlace artifact when playing back the 1080 60i 24p embedded MTS files from the GH1 and that's when I decided to shoot 720 60p for everything so I wouldn't have to deal with that issue.

If you use 720 60p MTS files and edit 720 24p in Edius Neo there are no artifacts.

Randy
 

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Cavemandude said:
I remember when I first got my GH1 back in Dec 09 I saw this interlace artifact when playing back the 1080 60i 24p embedded MTS files from the GH1 and that's when I decided to shoot 720 60p for everything so I wouldn't have to deal with that issue.
Randy
Click to expand...

If you see interlace artifacts, it's the fault of the player software.
 
Well, there are two types of interlace artifacts using video player software in this case. One is the obvious when playing an interlaced file, that the entire frame of video is not getting properly deinterlaced and it is easy to see that the video player is not deinterlacing the file correctly. With some players, you can actually turn deinterlacing on to fix this. The VLC Player has lot of options for deinterlacing but that not the problem we're talking about.

The other interlace artifact is when playing even the progressive video file that is no longer interlaced that it still shows the same interlaced artifacts which are very minor and only noticeable in certain parts of the image.

Properly deinterlace the 1080 60i MTS file with Neo Scene and extract the 24p file out and these minor interlace artifacts are no longer there when playing it back with a video player.

One thing I found out with the 1080 24p Neo Scene converted file (which has no interlace artifacts) is if you drop that into the Edius 1080 24p timeline it defaults to Top Field so you have to click on Properties and change that file to Progressive or Edius will reintroduce this minor interlace artifact. After making that change, the file that is rendered out of Edius as 1080 24p file no longer has the interlace artifact.

Now the thing I don't like about Neo Scene is how much it crushes the blacks on the original GH1 MTS file it converts. I put the original MTS file and the Neo Scene converted file into the same timeline in Edius to do a comparison and there is a significant difference in the black video levels between the two files. What's up with that?

Maybe that is what happened with the Zacuto ISO test using the GH1, they used Neo Scene to convert the file to 24p, it crushed the blacks and they used that file for the comparison. The Neo Scene clip makes the original MTS file from the GH1 look washed out after playing the Neo Scene converted file for a while and then going back to the original MTS file.

Randy
 
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The frames are coming of the GH1 sensor at 24 progressive frames per second, with no interlacing. Then they are encoded into 1080i60, which is what we have the MTS files. To view those files, you need to use a software player. And so if you see any interlacing artifacts at all while viewing the GH1 MTS files in your player, it _must_ be the fault of the player software. If you see any interlacing artifacts while viewing a converted MTS file, then it must be the fault of the conversion software or the player software or some combination of the two.

Interlacing artifacts aren't subtle... Your player either deinterlaces correctly or it doesn't and its very easy to tell when it gets it wrong on footage with significant motion. If it gets it right on fast motion, then with high probability it gets it right all the time unless the player has some special execution path for fast motion frames, which is very unlikely. It's a little harder to tell whether the player removes the 3:2 pulldown correctly (unless you can step through the frames one at a time at which point its trivial even for amateurs).

The shimmering that we saw in blackout's clips is not a interlacing artifact. There's lots of motion in those scenes and no interlacing artifacts on the objects in motion. And there's not a player in the world that would correctly deinterlace part of the frame and incorrectly deinterlace another part of the same frame. So it's not an interlacing artifact.

My own guess is that the shimmering is due to a reduction in resolution somewhere in the workflow, either through scaling (viewing the clip at less than 1920x1080 resolution) or compression (when the clip is exported from Edius). It looks exactly like the shimmering I see on the low-resolution GH1 LCD when viewing a scene with a lot of fine detail, shimmering that does not appear when I view the FHD MTS files in any player (including those that do not deinterlace correctly).
 
Here a comparison using the same method to capture the screen grab which clearly shows the difference:

Using the same source MTS video file from my GH1.

First Screen Grab

Neo Scene processed 1080 GH1 clip to convert to a true 24p file - imported into Edius 1080 24p timeline - exported as 1080 24p

Things to notice:

Thin edges on cans are smooth, no interlace artifacts, but the black levels are crushed compared to the original MTS file. The black levels dropped in Edius for some reason. The same Neo Scene file in Sony Vegas will not drop the black levels.

NeoScene_Edius_24p.jpg




Second Screen Grab

Original MTS 1080 GH1 clip - imported into Edius 1080 24p timeline - exported as 1080 24p (same export settings were used for both clips)

Things to notice:

Thin edges on cans have interlace artifacts, box edges have interlace artifacts. Retains the same video levels of the original MTS file.

Randy

Original_MTS_Edius_24p.jpg
 
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Cavemandude said:
How do you explain that I uploaded the original MTS file to Vimeo and still have that shimmering on the cans when played back on Vimeo?

Randy
Click to expand...

Uploading original mts files to viemo or youtube does no remove pulldown. It does it's own weird convertion to 25fps or something like that but obvious stutters and artifacts occur. Some people won't notice it, but it's there.

The point is, it is not a problem in the original mts file, as if you hook your camera up via hdmi to a 1080p monitor it is not there... it is not there if you properly remove pulldown, but on the PC there are only a few ways to do this, mainly being neoscene.

I didn't even buy neoscene yet I used the trial but it worked... but it kind of peeves me that to actually use the footage from my camera I have to spend another $100+ bucks.

I was told by many that Edius Neo 2 booster was the answer, and it almost looks like it is, but after extensive tests, it does NOT do pullodnw correctly. Yeah yeah, you can edit your 1080p 24p files easily and natively and pretty smoothly, but you get messy artifacts and some strange motion difference in the final rendered result. It is a fluke, and IS NOT doing ti correctly. I would love for someone to prove me wrong but as of yet all my tests can not get a file out of edius that looks proper 24p like neoscene does.
 
noirist said:
The frames are coming of the GH1 sensor at 24 progressive frames per second, with no interlacing. Then they are encoded into 1080i60, which is what we have the MTS files. To view those files, you need to use a software player. And so if you see any interlacing artifacts at all while viewing the GH1 MTS files in your player, it _must_ be the fault of the player software. If you see any interlacing artifacts while viewing a converted MTS file, then it must be the fault of the conversion software or the player software or some combination of the two.

Interlacing artifacts aren't subtle... Your player either deinterlaces correctly or it doesn't and its very easy to tell when it gets it wrong on footage with significant motion. If it gets it right on fast motion, then with high probability it gets it right all the time unless the player has some special execution path for fast motion frames, which is very unlikely. It's a little harder to tell whether the player removes the 3:2 pulldown correctly (unless you can step through the frames one at a time at which point its trivial even for amateurs).

The shimmering that we saw in blackout's clips is not a interlacing artifact. There's lots of motion in those scenes and no interlacing artifacts on the objects in motion. And there's not a player in the world that would correctly deinterlace part of the frame and incorrectly deinterlace another part of the same frame. So it's not an interlacing artifact.

My own guess is that the shimmering is due to a reduction in resolution somewhere in the workflow, either through scaling (viewing the clip at less than 1920x1080 resolution) or compression (when the clip is exported from Edius). It looks exactly like the shimmering I see on the low-resolution GH1 LCD when viewing a scene with a lot of fine detail, shimmering that does not appear when I view the FHD MTS files in any player (including those that do not deinterlace correctly).
Click to expand...

Again.. the very same scene with pulldown removal done via neoscene does not have any artifacts on the silverware and all looks like a solid frame. So Edius is doing something retarded and the makers of Edius need to fix this if they are promoting it as a viable editor of GH1 avchd footage.

I was VERY hopeful for this product and ready to plunk my money down, yet now it looks I will have to buy neoscene and use another editor as I know of no other reliable way to get pulldown removal done correctly on GH1 footage on the PC. Sony vegas 9 is a MESS and does not handle GH1 1920 x 1080 24p footage at all, it toally screws it up. With modifications though you can edit 720p footage and conform it to 24p but it in NO WAY looks as good as true 24p footage, the motion cadence is ALL off I don't care what anyone says, GH1 productions shot in 720p look like there own weird form of video look it doesn't have that film look motion that 1080 24p gets.\

Look at this again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvw8FVCsfRE&hd=1

(make sure to chose 1080p and fullscreen it and watch it on a native 1080p monitor)

Everything looks right but there is all sorts of weirdness artifacts in the silverware. Not acceptable. It does this somewhere on almost ALL footage.
 
I just saw Cavemens post - he shows the issue clearly. Thanks Cave, maybe you could go post that on the Edius Grass Valley forum and see if you can get some sort of response from them
 
In Sony Vegas Pro 9.0d, which is a new update, the Neo Scene clip retains the video levels of the original MTS file and doesn't crush the black levels like it does when placed in an Edius timeline. I also noticed that there are lots of motion blur options in Project Settings but I haven't tested those out to see what the differences are. It defaults to Gaussian motion blur.

Also, when playing the original MTS file and the Neo Scene file with Windows Media Player both clips have the same video levels. It is only in Edius that the black level drops on Neo Scene file.

Randy
 
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Here is a the same video clip processed with the following:

GH1 original 1080 MTS file -> Neo Scene to extract 1080 24p file -> Import to Sony Vegas 9.0d 1080 24p project -> Export from Sony Vegas using MainConcept AVC at 1080 24p at 20Mbps -> Uploaded to Vimeo.

I don't see any excessive playback choppiness using this process, it just looks like 24p to me. Now if your computer/video card can't handle full-screen 1080p properly then it will probably look choppy when played full-screen but the embedded video player at the size here looks plenty smooth for the amount of movement in the video at 24p.

Also, no interlace artifacts and the video levels are the same as the original MTS file. Only problem with Neo Scene is that it doesn't process the first couple frames which is not a biggie for me.

Randy

 
Blackout said:
Again.. the very same scene with pulldown removal done via neoscene does not have any artifacts on the silverware and all looks like a solid frame. So Edius is doing something retarded and the makers of Edius need to fix this if they are promoting it as a viable editor of GH1 avchd footage.

I was VERY hopeful for this product and ready to plunk my money down, yet now it looks I will have to buy neoscene and use another editor as I know of no other reliable way to get pulldown removal done correctly on GH1 footage on the PC. Sony vegas 9 is a MESS and does not handle GH1 1920 x 1080 24p footage at all, it toally screws it up. With modifications though you can edit 720p footage and conform it to 24p but it in NO WAY looks as good as true 24p footage, the motion cadence is ALL off I don't care what anyone says, GH1 productions shot in 720p look like there own weird form of video look it doesn't have that film look motion that 1080 24p gets.\

Look at this again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvw8FVCsfRE&hd=1

(make sure to chose 1080p and fullscreen it and watch it on a native 1080p monitor)

Everything looks right but there is all sorts of weirdness artifacts in the silverware. Not acceptable. It does this somewhere on almost ALL footage.
Click to expand...
The shimmering is not an artifact of pulldown or interlacing. The shimmering is due to something else, mostly likely a loss of resolution due to scaling or compression. Your neoscened file is huge, right? 6-7x as big as the original mts file, which means that it isn't compressed as much as anything you are exporting from Edius. To be fair to Edius, you have to compare two files with the same level of compression (ie., the same file size), where one went through Edius and the other didn't.

So why don't you try exporting from Edius as 1080p24 Canopus HQ AVI "Fine" as was suggested to you 3 weeks ago on the Edius forums, and see if that clip has shimmering or any other artifacts?

P.S. What happens to your clip in Canopus HQ AVI "Fine", Randy?
 
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