Edius 5 or Edius Neo 2 Booster 24p pulldown removal

Blackout, are you having this "problem" with any new video that you have shot or is it the same video shots that you had problems with and posted on Vimeo and YouTube and keep trying to fix that?

I say you messed up on the camera settings while shooting the problem clips only, possibly the shutter speed, since in the video you posted there was a clip of people quickly walking with no artifacts (right near the end of the video) and software isn't going to selectively screw up the pulldown on some clips and not others, especially video clips with lots of movement. Only other answer would be you changed something just on those problem clips in Edius somehow.

I'm using Edius Neo Booster 2.5 (you should see an "EDIUS Neo 2.5" on your desktop) and don't have this problem on any of the video that I've shot so far and rendered in Edius.

Randy
 
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To add to all this.

Artifacts I see that are obvious when there is movement in video clips:

1:49 Inside Train (Looks Fine)
1:53 Street, Cars, People (Double Frame Artifact)
2:13 Birds (Double Frame Artifact)
2:18 Birds (Double Frame Artifact)
2:28 Street, Cars (Double Frame Artifact)
2:36 Guy standing, People Walking, Street, Cars (Looks Fine)
2:49 People Walking (Looks Fine)
2:58 Transition bump in middle of Dissolve Transition

This is the "Double Frame" artifact that I see which only happens on some (not all) of the video clips that have significant movement. This to me means the user is making a mistake somewhere using the camera or software and not a defect of either the camera or the software itself.

2010-03-21_2048.png


2010-03-21_2053.png



Significant Movement but no "Double Frame" artifact on these two different video clips below.

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2010-03-21_2055.png


Randy
 
I agree... The "Double frame" artifacts look like improperly edited slomo. Like he tried to slow a 1080P /24 clip by changing the speed in post instead of shooting 720/60P at 125 shutter and interpreting it as 29.97 or 24.

That's why I mentioned the choppy scene of the bird flying off.
 
Those frame grabs above aren't from slomo clips. From what I remember, they should all be 100% speed clips. The slomo shot of the birds flying away did have the same "double frame" problem though.

Randy
 
All he has to do is make one of those "problem" video clips downloadable in its original MTS format and anyone with Edius Neo 2.5 (as Grass Valley calls it) can quickly test it out also even by using the trial version of the software if they don't already own it. It would sure end the debate on what's really going on here.

Randy
 
Here is a video with the same "double frame" problem. What did he do? Here is what he said:

"Shot with the Panasonic GH1 + kit lens, 1080/60. I shot it in the highest setting with 1/60 shutter speed, didn't remove pull-down and edited in Premiere on AVCHD 1080/30i timeline hoping that would help with smooth slow motion, but I don't think that is the best way to do it. "



Randy
 
Hi guys.. thanks for all the input.... I did not slow down any of the clips except the bird one.... I re-edited it and compared and still saw artifacts like in the trees with the drug dealer as far as I can see all settings were right.. shutter was 50 or 60, 1080p avchd... I haven't had a chance to upload the second version... got rid of the double image blending but still see some 'rippling' as compared to pulldown done with neoscene... you need total wide shots to see it, you would think it is working on medium or close ups...

I'll upload the 3rd test as soon as I have some time... right now I have been up all night tinkering with some other projects and must hit the sleep.
 
For 1080 24p with pull-down, I would try to use a shutter of at least 60 most of the time and try to stay away from a shutter of 50.
 
I hear two camps on this. Why doesn't the GH1 have a proper shutter speed of 48 anyway? In either case, the problem is not the shutter because again, the neoscene converted footage does not have the issues that the edius rendered out footage does. I have been too busy to get a/b comparisons up to show, but I will soon.

And Caveman, Premiere cs4 cannot handle the GH1 24p mode, it outputs crap with studders.
 
Cavemandude said:
Here is a video with the same "double frame" problem. What did he do? Here is what he said:

"Shot with the Panasonic GH1 + kit lens, 1080/60. I shot it in the highest setting with 1/60 shutter speed, didn't remove pull-down and edited in Premiere on AVCHD 1080/30i timeline hoping that would help with smooth slow motion, but I don't think that is the best way to do it. "
Click to expand...

For normal motion in 30p deinterlace with "single field". Do not use "blend", this is what produces ghosting.

For slow motion in 30p deinterlace with "bob" and slow down to 0.5 speed. Do not slow down to any other value than 0.5 speed, this MAY produce ghosting, depending on your NLE.

http://www.avchduser.com/articles/watching_interlaced_video.jsp

24p footage that shows ghosting has not been deinterlaced properly, it should be deinterlaced in "film mode", that is, by removing pulldown.
 
Understood, and I have fixed that problem. The issues I am talking about are no longer that ghosting/double image, but interlace looking artifacts in fine details in wides (such as the trees in the background) that do not show up in neoscene versions that DO show up in the edius versions when rendered out to the same mpeg4 codec. Also... there is some difference in motion characteristics with neoscene appearing smoother and some more judder appearing in objects moving across the screen in a locked down shot the edius versions.

So I am thinking edius neo booster 2 does not in fact remove gh1 pulldown correctly as it seems to pick and choose frames even if setting are all prograssive 23.98 ect.
 
The shimmering artifacts in the clips that you posted are not due to pulldown. It's some other problem in your workflow that you haven't yet isolated.

Have you done the test that was recommended to you on the Edius forum?

I'm surprised that you continue to tout Neoscene when it clearly does not remove the pulldown correctly in the first few seconds of any FHD AVCHD clip that I've tested it on. Do you see the Neoscene artifacts too or are you just glossing over that because you don't care about the first few seconds of your clips?
 
I am not having that issue with the first few seocnds of my clips. I did on a few, but again I usually shoot a few seconds before the 'action part' that matters, so even if I were seeing that issue, it would not be a big deal.

I have now confirmed the shimmering scan line like artifact issue absolutely exists on all wide angle clips at 24p that come out of both edius neo 2 neo booster, and edius 11, so as far as I can see they are not real options.. they do some sort of weird frame blneding that would fool 90% of people looking at it, but it is not giving you the true pulldown removed 24p images.
 
So what do you propose is the lens size cutoff point as far as your "wide angle" artifact? It has to stop at some point. Does it stop at 28mm, 30mm, 50mm...? Also, no Edius 11 out but they did just release Edius 5.5.

Randy
 
I am going to have to post an extensive serious of test.. with the final outputs from the original files.... and it's a lot of work for a thing I have proven doen't work... So I am wondering whether to even bother or move on...
 
Here is my test and I don't see any shimmer:

1080 24p Shimmer Test

- Shot with GH1 at 1080 24p
- Panasonic 20mm f1.7 lens
- Edited with Edius Neo 2.5 Booster in a 1080 24p timeline
- Exported as 1080 24p MPEG 2 file

Randy

 
Thanks Cave but that test was useless as you are moving all over the place and using mostly medium / close up shots. Set the camera on a stable tripod, go to full wide angle, and film some large detailed scenes. On things that have a slight slant.. say like a branch that is slowly tilting towards the ground in the distance, you will see odd interlace like artifacts that you will see nowhere else in the picture. At first I thought it was just old plain aliasing problems but it is not because it's not in the neoscene 24p removed files they look solid detailed and great. Also, Edius changes something about the motion. The 24p output edius neo 2 produces has slightly different motion than the 24p with pulldown removes of neoscene, and neoscene looks right, where as edius ads a strange somewhat more 'chopiness' to it.

I have clips to demonstrate this I will get them up when I have time. I have followed the recommended setting of setting edius to 1920, 1080 23.98, then leaving the imported gh1 1920 x 1080 clips alone, then outputting to 1920 x 1080 23.98p mp4 at a high bit rate.

Again forget about the 'double' image scenes of people walking around, I fixed that, but look
at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekc-WOlv61Q&hd=1

Make sure you watch this FULLSCREEN and select 1080p and watch on a 1080p monitor, I can not do it on vimeo because vimeo reduces the damn thing to 1280 x 720... which is ridiculous in this day and age.

OK

from 0:00 to 0:37 - while it looks all nice and pretty and sharp, the motion of the cars traveling on the bridge is messed up, it has a weird 24p stutter that is NOT in the original.. only after being rendered out from edius. The neoscene does not have it either, the motion of the cars driving away on the bridge is totally smooth. Most people would never notice this, but I am insane and it is making me more insane.

0:37- 1:00 look at the buildings in the background, specifically the empire state building.. it has some weird interlace flackering going on. WTF? This is NOT in the original, nor the neoscene version or the encoded mp4 FROM the neoscene, it is ONLY from direct editing in edius to output no matter what encoding method I choose . It is in the mp4 so it was not created by the youtube or vimeo compression either.

Forget about the next minute of screwy scenes with people that was some odd messup I was able to fix, let's jump now to 2:37 with the drug dealer by the tree and people walking. Very nice wide shot, all looks to be ok, but it is not. Look at the fine detail in the background, specifically the trees. Interlace like weird artifact jumping up and down... even though there doesn't appear to be interlace artifacts in the many people walking around. This shot does NOT looke like this in my original. In the original and neoscene pull down removal, everything is solid like a solid progressive picture should be, with no weird flickering anywhere, and so is the mp4, but in edius, both the big version and neo booster two, this is what gets rendered out.

Again, settings are set as everyone has recommended them to be.

Me theory is that you will not notice it on most shots that are medium, close ups, or have camera movement, but in locked down wide shots with detail you can see that something is not right, and also, something is not right with the 24p motion coming out of edius... it is... choppier... it is NOT the true 24p with pulldown removed.. it is doing something weird to get it's 24p.
 
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For a comparison, here is the original file that I uploaded direct to Vimeo to see if it is any less choppy than the one I processed using Edius Neo:



Randy
 
Ok guys.. you are not getting it... Randy what you are filming is too all over the place for any real test.

Here, I have uploaded a clips that EXACTLY demonstartes the shimmering interlace issues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvw8FVCsfRE&hd=1


make sure to select 1080p and FULL screen it... then... it all looks peachy keen, like Edius might be working, but look at the fine detail of the SILVEWARE on the table: nasty aliased interlace mess that is NOT IN THE ORIGINAL FOOTAGE nor in the footage when pulldown is down with neoscene. Playing back the neoscene footage the silverware looks solid and doesn't tweak back and forth with interlace scan line artifacts.

I have tried MANY MANY MANY methods of exporting in different ways and changing and tweaking different setting and have NOT been able to correct this.

So as far as I am concerned as of now, the Edius neo booster 2 or Edius 5 myth of working correctly with GH1 footage is a lie. It DOES NOT correctly handle the 1920 x 1080 59i footage and make it 1920 x 1080 24p footage with correct motion and detail.

I would love for all holy god for them or someone to correct this or me but I have done hours of tinkering, and now my trials have ran out, and I am not plunking down money on these programs if they can't do this.
 
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