F3: Why I bought an F35 instead of going 4K with the F5/F55

darn too expensive and too heavy and power consuming for me. How much worse is 10 bit vs 12 bit? :) I guess it's like getting a porshe and only driving it in 35 mph lanes

Going to hope the AJA Ki Pro Quad is decent and can do 4:4:4 12 bit pro res 4444 and rent the Gemini in the meantime maybe. uncompressed workflow is no fun.
 
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Yeah, the more things I see, the more convinced I am that it's the 12-bit 4:4:4 output the Alexa puts out that helps give it's footage such lovely depth. Getting all of that in a 330Mbps ProRes wrapper makes files sizes quite manageable too. I think the PIX240 would make a great companion for the F35 in that regard - you need a dual-link-to-3G-SDI converter, but they're pretty compact little boxes; so strap one on to the camera and you get 12-bit 4:4:4 ProRes up to 30fps.
 
Grug said:
Yeah, the more things I see, the more convinced I am that it's the 12-bit 4:4:4 output the Alexa puts out that helps give it's footage such lovely depth. Getting all of that in a 330Mbps ProRes wrapper makes files sizes quite manageable too. I think the PIX240 would make a great companion for the F35 in that regard - you need a dual-link-to-3G-SDI converter, but they're pretty compact little boxes; so strap one on to the camera and you get 12-bit 4:4:4 ProRes up to 30fps.
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How good is the screen on the pix240 for accurate focusing and image evaluation? The screen on the atomos is pretty lame for that. Is the one on the pix240 any better? Better than the 5.6" TVlogic?

What's the most compact 3g converter out there right now?
 
macgregor said:
How good is the screen on the pix240 for accurate focusing and image evaluation? The screen on the atomos is pretty lame for that. Is the one on the pix240 any better? Better than the 5.6" TVlogic?
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The pix 240 screen is nowhere near as good as the TV logic.

i have both.


I would never use it for critical picture judgement.

This in no way takes anything away from it being (IMO), the BEST recorder out there.
 
hmhmh..

How you dump material from Sony SRW-1 recorder?

Playback and capture to PC with BM Multibridge II would be the way?? To the Cineform Filmscan 2 ?? Is it Cineform 1080p50 12bit thrue Dual-SDI??

And how much weight the Sony SRW-1 recorder???


.
 
macgregor said:
How good is the screen on the pix240 for accurate focusing and image evaluation? The screen on the atomos is pretty lame for that. Is the one on the pix240 any better? Better than the 5.6" TVlogic?
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The screen on the standard PIX240 isn't great. Though it has superb features (1:1 Pixel Zoom, False Colour, Peaking, Zebras) which make it pretty usable for judging focus and exposure in my opinion. I wouldn't trust it for colour though (though that said, if you're monitoring in SLOG you can't really judge colour anyway).

By most reports though, the IPS screen on the newer PIX240i is really good, and usable as a reference monitor for colour - resolution is the same as the standard PIX240 and isn't particularly high at 800x480, but it's usable (particularly with 1:1 pixel zoom).

macgregor said:
What's the most compact 3g converter out there right now?
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The Blackmagic Design "Mini Converter SDI Multiplex" seems like the cheapest and most compact 3G converter I've found so far.
 
Doesn't the srw-1 require an optional hksr-103 board to make it record rgb 60p? The hksr-103 board is hard to find and looks like the price was over $10,000.
 
rizibo said:
Doesn't the srw-1 require an optional hksr-103 board to make it record rgb 60p? The hksr-103 board is hard to find and looks like the price was over $10,000.
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Yes, but max is 50p with the F35. 60p with the F23. Mind you, all these F35 units getting sold off right now, some of them are coming from rental houses that may have invested in the high speed board, but it's going to be luck of the draw.
 
OlegKalyan said:
wrong topic, but what's lattitude of D21?
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Not much different from the F35. So around 11 or 11.5 stops and it also seems to allocate more of it to the highlights than to the shadows, like the F35 does as well. At least that's what I gathered from tests and footage I have seen.

Main problem with the D21 is sensitivity, which is native ISO200 and power consumption as I think you need a 24v power source. Weight may also be an issue for some. But in my opinion it's worth it to have a real optical viewfinder and mirror shutter. This is why the F65 is so big as well, mirror shutter. But it pays off in the images. It just looks more filmic than electronic shutters because, well this is how film cameras work. When you consider the D21 is not really heavier than an Arricam, you start seeing that it's just a production camera rather than a run and gun one and as such, the weight is not really a big deal.
People say the Alexa is lighter, but only the "video" version which I think weights 16lbs. The "film" version, the Alexa Studio, which has the same optical viewfinder and mirror shutter system weights around the same as the D21. But at the high-end, which is the market for Alexa Studio and D21 this is apparently not an issue. Arri at first didn't offer an Alexa with optical viewfinder and mirror shutter. Probably because they thought people had moved on and grew used to the video ways and there wouldn't be a demand. But people at the high-end started to ask for one. So after all the requests they made the Alexa Studio to cover the demand. Apparently nobody cared if it would a bit heavier. Probably because there's no comparison working with an EVF and with an OVF, and the motion cadence of a real mechanical shutter is just not matched by any electronic shutter, rolling or global. In the lower end this may be seen as splitting hairs. At the high end you have no reason not to always go for the best. This is also the reason why even though the F55 is cheaper, lighter etc, there's still a market for the F65. Feature film people just don't care for the other features because they want the best.
So now Arri has the normal Alexas for the broadcast folks to film the Superbowl with (or handheld work in general if so preferred) and the Alexa Studio for features. Smart way to cover both ends that Sony needs two cameras to cover (F65/F55). Actually Arri has also covered the Si2K market, which is very used for 3D because of the compact size with the Alexa M, which is just a small camera head perfect for 3D rigs. But now we are getting really off topic. :)
 
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Grug said:
Yeah, the more things I see, the more convinced I am that it's the 12-bit 4:4:4 output the Alexa puts out that helps give it's footage such lovely depth. Getting all of that in a 330Mbps ProRes wrapper makes files sizes quite manageable too. I think the PIX240 would make a great companion for the F35 in that regard - you need a dual-link-to-3G-SDI converter, but they're pretty compact little boxes; so strap one on to the camera and you get 12-bit 4:4:4 ProRes up to 30fps.
Click to expand...

Which is what has me convinced that the F5/F55 10-bit XAVC even with SR Codec will fall short of getting that "look" many of us want from a 35mm digital camera. Unfortunately if you want it you're going to have to shoot 16-bit 4k raw and transcode...

But to get the power of 12-bit 444 from an F35 really has me thinking too now. For $20k I'd have a hell of a package and just keep my F3.
 
starcentral said:
Which is what has me convinced that the F5/F55 10-bit XAVC even with SR Codec will fall short of getting that "look" many of us want from a 35mm digital camera.
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The point is, do you really need that? If your production will be showing in a multiplex near you, sure, definitely! But for web, corporate, music videos (most likely web again), broadcast etc?
We all want the best, but one needs to keep in perspective what our market is and who is our audience.
 
starcentral said:
Which is what has me convinced that the F5/F55 10-bit XAVC even with SR Codec will fall short of getting that "look" many of us want from a 35mm digital camera.
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Go look at first season of Downton Abbey. D21 to Panasonic AVC-Intra 100 10bit. A camera with 10 stops of latitude to a 10 bit format.

Please forgive me, but it's way more the people in the chain than the bit depth.
 
It seems like this is the tool to convert dual link to single link 3g - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...ic_Design_convmsdimux_Mini_Converter_SDI.html
From Blackmagic

Not out yet, but should be out soon.

It seems that AJA already has one available - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/899103-REG/AJA_3GM_HD_Converter.html
It's $740.

Or....just wait get the Ki Pro Quad once it hits - again hopefully soon. Less power options - less video chains that could get screwed up somehow.

Wondering if there are other options to get that magical 12-bit 4:4:4 in a lightweight affordable way.

The Gemini doesn't do anything but uncompressed and compressed pro res and no thanks on that !

Guess just have to wait a few months.
 
Nate Weaver said:
Go look at first season of Downton Abbey. D21 to Panasonic AVC-Intra 100 10bit. A camera with 10 stops of latitude to a 10 bit format.

Please forgive me, but it's way more the people in the chain than the bit depth.
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I will take a look at it a bit later today and see what I think of it.

No for sure its just not about bit-depth. There are people shooting on Canon 7D or 5D that blows what I can do, so I realize there is an entire chain in-between. But don't forget that a camera with only 10 stops dynamic range doesn't really need a format greater than 10-bits either. In the case of Alexa, a camera with 16-bit ADC, 14-14.5 usable stops, I still think shooting it at 10-bit would not look as pretty as 12-bit. No I have no proof, only theories.

Edit: I also doubt d21 is shooting YCbCr.
 
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starcentral said:
Which is what has me convinced that the F5/F55 10-bit XAVC even with SR Codec will fall short of getting that "look" many of us want from a 35mm digital camera. Unfortunately if you want it you're going to have to shoot 16-bit 4k raw and transcode...

But to get the power of 12-bit 444 from an F35 really has me thinking too now. For $20k I'd have a hell of a package and just keep my F3.
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It's certainly an idea - personally the fear of something on a (once) $250,000 camera breaking and requiring $20,000 for replacement is what really scared me off the idea in the end.

Remember too, that you can shoot 16-bit 2K raw with the F5(5) which is actually pretty comparable to ProResHQ in terms of storage requirements - and tonnes easier to work with than the 4K equivalent.

You'd also save all of the added support/lighting package costs that would come with the heavier and lower sensitivity F35.

But as with anything - there's trade-offs.
 
Yeah Grug I just realized through another thread that the 2k raw 16-bit from Sony is very close in data rate to that of the Alexa 12-bit RGB 444 in ProRes format. Not bad then in terms of storage!

Sony 2k raw 16-bit: 240mbps
ARRI 2k RGB 444 12-bit: 264mbps

So maybe I will stick with the F5 after all but I am still weighing out all my options. I just want to break the YCbCr threshold and do it in 12-bits and now that I've been reminded of how low 2k raw data rates are, I am quite tickled.

But wait! I have more negative speculation to share. Prepare your tinfoil hat. The SR Codec that will eventually be offered on the F5 and F55 will come in two flavours: 220mbps 422 YCbCr 10-bit, and 440mbps 444 RGB 10-bit. Last time I checked those were only 1920x1080 formats.... so as far as 4k is concerned the F55 will only record 4k in XAVC or raw. Is this true?
 
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