Video equal, will you sell your 7D for a T2i?

Video equal, will you sell your 7D for a T2i?

  • Yes will sell 7D

    Votes: 30 13.8%

  • No, im keeping 7D

    Votes: 123 56.7%

  • Dont have a 7D

    Votes: 64 29.5%
  • Total voters
    217
Barry_Green said:
Exactly.

So do you want a DSLR with a tacked-on video feature? If so, sure, you'll get great pricing, quick innovation, and aliasing/moire, no headphone jack, no timecode, no way to defeat the audio gain, etc.

If you want an actual professional video product, then you're going to go to the back of the line and wait years for Canon to get around to producing it only after everyone else has first.
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I don't care about the audio issues as I'll be recording audio externally with a whopping $300 H4n. Timecode I can live without. As for moire and aliasing, I'll deal with it but I don't think its going to be around forever. I'll stick with DSLRs with a tacked on feature thats good enough until scarlet comes out whenever it does. Even then I'll keep a sub $1000 large sensor DSLR around since its cheap enough and will provide visuals I can't get with a 2/3" Scarlet.
 
Barry you need to have a little more faith in Nikon!!!! And while I'm waiting I'll just keep using the DVX100b.
 
Barry_Green said:
Canon is definitely a leader in the stills camera arena (even though Nikon actually did DSLR video before they did). But Canon's video division is a very different animal. They let everyone else "take point" and they bring up the rear; always have, always will, they admit it and they say they like it that way.
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That's true except when I think about a camera like the HV20 I do believe they, Canon, were the first to bring 24p to consumer cameras (I know Panasonic did this with pro-sumer) which had a large part in its success.

Also, if I recall correctly, it was Panasonic who waited it out with the DSLRs and watched other manufacturers. I remember after the 5Dll came out Panasonic (at least a Pana rep) stated that they were not going to make the same mistakes. They announced the GH-1...but it was like six months or so before they officially released it.

When I first saw its video i made the claim somewhere in here that I thought the video was as sharp as the 5Dll. But...the codec issues slapped me in the face. So close...so close.
 
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Interesting points to consider Barry.

I'm indifferent to which company makes the next improved camera. Given the great image you can get out of a 7D, I'm just hopeful much better things are around the corner. Like I mentioned, I'm new to this game and even now, owning a 7D for about 3 months there is already another camera with comparable or identical video quality for half the price. Everything seems to be changing so fast, and now with RED getting close to a Scarlet release, it just seems like crazy crazy stuff is possible.

Even though we represent a fairly small portion of the overall DSLR customer base, it'll be interesting to see what happens. It seems that I keep hearing about photographers that are really really excited about these new video features. To have full manual HD video getting captured behind their collection of glass is opening up a whole new market base to this video thing. If they demand cleaner and cleaner video, this whole DSMC thing RED named may exist sooner than we think in a lesser DSLR form. Please note, I stated lesser.

In the end, if it is Panasonic that makes a really great large sensor camera, cool.
 
Look at the publicity that Canon is getting by having George Lucas and the "24" show use Canon VDSLR's. There was a line in the sand and Canon got the Pros to step over.

So now we all can say "I'm using a camera that Gearge Lucas uses to make movies". How much do you think that statement is worth to Canon?
 
"24" used a Canon DSLR?


hepabst said:
Look at the publicity that Canon is getting by having George Lucas and the "24" show use Canon VDSLR's. There was a line in the sand and Canon got the Pros to step over.

So now we all can say "I'm using a camera that Gearge Lucas uses to make movies". How much do you think that statement is worth to Canon?
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hepabst said:
Look at the publicity that Canon is getting by having George Lucas and the "24" show use Canon VDSLR's. There was a line in the sand and Canon got the Pros to step over.

So now we all can say "I'm using a camera that Gearge Lucas uses to make movies". How much do you think that statement is worth to Canon?
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Oof. I think Barry touched on this before. In fact, I know he has. And really, that is kind of stretching the truth...its a bit of hyperbole.

Mr. Charters isn't shooting 24 on a DSLR. He's shooting plates for the background of car windows with a DSLR.

Mr. Lucas isn't shooting his next feature on a DSLR. He's shooting a few shots of pilots inside cockpits (i.e. extremely cramped spaces) where a normal film or digital cinema camera wouldn't fit. His choice there was basically: DSLR or HandyCam.

To the best of my knowledge, these aren't principle photography cameras for either Mr. Lucas or Mr. Charters. They aren't A cams, and they probably aren't B cams. They are more than likely relegated to a "special camera unit" who can get the few shots they are needed for.
 
Michael Olsen said:
To the best of my knowledge, these aren't principle photography cameras for either Mr. Lucas or Mr. Charters. They aren't A cams, and they probably aren't B cams. They are more than likely relegated to a "special camera unit" who can get the few shots they are needed for.
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True, but check out this blog post from Cinema5D about the DP from 24 talking about the future of the 5D and large sensor DSLRs:
http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=2215
 
Zim said:
Barry you need to have a little more faith in Nikon!!!! And while I'm waiting I'll just keep using the DVX100b.
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Faith? Where does faith enter into it? I'm looking at history. I'm watching trends, looking at what companies actually do. Nikon doesn't make video cameras. The very most you can expect from Nikon is the same DSLR stuff that they're already doing; Nikon makes still cameras, not video cameras. So if you want a still camera with video tacked on, yes Nikon will be an option.
 
I knew I should have put a LOL on my post!! LOL!!
Of course NIkon is a mainly a still camera company and as a loyal Nikon user I hope they stay that way. But I don't think you need to be "in the video camera business" to put video into a DSLR. Seems they are already doing it. We will just have to see how good it gets.
I think the video for these cameras have a purpose and I'd really like to see Nikon,Panny and Canon all get it down good. A great feature for sure. I have have faith in Nikon......LOL!!





Barry_Green said:
Faith? Where does faith enter into it? I'm looking at history. I'm watching trends, looking at what companies actually do. Nikon doesn't make video cameras. The very most you can expect from Nikon is the same DSLR stuff that they're already doing; Nikon makes still cameras, not video cameras. So if you want a still camera with video tacked on, yes Nikon will be an option.
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Well, again, I guess it goes back to "what are we talking about again?" My big ol' posts were about companies who would build a large-sensor video camera. That's a whole different subject from companies who will put a video feature into a still camera.
 
Yes, but at the rate things are going it looks like there will be an eventual "full" convergence of the two technologies. There are folks on both ends of the spectrum that want this to happen.
 
Ian-T said:
Yes, but at the rate things are going it looks like there will be an eventual "full" convergence of the two technologies. There are folks on both ends of the spectrum that want this to happen.
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Sure there are.

But you still have two diametrically opposed technologies -- what's good for stills is not good for video. What's good for video is not good for stills. So you have to pick your compromise.

Do you go with a still camera, and get all the aliasing/moire/lousy form factor that goes along with it, compromising your video, but getting a cheap price?

Do you go with a properly-engineered-for-video camera, with a proper anti-alias filter installed that kills all moire, but end up with a maximum of maybe 3-megapixel stills?

Or do you go the Red route, where they make massive sensors that can handle video frame rates, full-resolution video and stills, but ... you gotta pay $15,000 or more to get the FF35 version which would have enough field of view and enough pixels to make excellent stills? Epic FF35 would have 24 megapixels, enough to be competitive for stills with the best stills cameras. An Epic FF35 should be capable of being an uncompromised stills and digicine camera, at least as regards the footage. But an Epic FF35 ain't gonna be $799!

Take your pick. If you're happy with the compromises inherent in SLR video, heck, the products are available today and there are plenty to choose from (even a Nikon for Zim!) But if you're not happy with the compromises inherent in SLR video, and you want a purpose-built digital cinema camera, that's what we're looking at here -- and that's gonna come first from Panasonic or Red, and it's not gonna be $799. If Panasonic does it, I expect that they'll just ditch the stills and make it dedicated for video. If you want a Red, at a low price, you're gonna give up your dreams of cine-style shallow DOF (to get the 2/3" version) or you're gonna pay for it ($10k+ for an S35 Scarlet).

I agree with you that there's a lot of talk about convergence. But is that a good thing? Speaking of convergence, have you shot video on your cell phone? How about browsed the web on it? Sure, convergence sounds great and makes things cheap, but the experience of doing those converged tasks kind of sucks as compared to a dedicated-purpose product, doesn't it?
 
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Of course this can't be taken to heart as a blanket statement, there are going to be many differences as Barry points out, who I trust, since he's got the crystal ball if anyone does. But it does scare me to buy Canon... after reading so much about modularity, sensor upgrades, firmware releases, and REDRAW. All of that is really hard to ignore when compared to machine-gun release schedules like Canon's. BTW, wtf is going on in CML?! I have gotten like 200 e-mails in the past FEW days. lol

BTW, I'll bet that MANY professional photographers will be happy with 5k S35 M-X stills using top notch glass.
 
What's wrong with Canon's "machine gun" release-schedule approach? Pick the product you like, and buy it. If they don't make something you like, give 'em six months and they'll have something new out that might do what you like...

The "modularity" concept is certainly appealing, but when an entire camera (t2i) costs about the same as a "handle" or a remote control module on a Scarlet, well, which will turn out to be the more practical approach for your particular needs?

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying that both approaches are valid and will appeal to different folks. For the cost of an I/O module on the Scarlet, you could buy two t2i's or a 7D. For the cost of a Nikon mount adapter you could just about buy a t3i (assuming there was such a thing). For the cost of adding a 1.8" SSD module onto your Scarlet, you could buy a t4i and a t5i and, probably, have some money left over for some more lenses...

Heck, you could think of Canon's approach as just as modular. Instead of buying a "brain" and adding "modules" to it, with the Canon you buy "lenses" and you add "bodies" to it...
 
Of course I wasn't putting you on either side. Just adding by pointing out that there are two categories (pro-sumer & pro), and two business models (all else's & Red's).

You put that in an interesting way now Barry: "modular upgrades". Of course you need to take into account the quality is staggeringly different, as well as the shelf life of the "full" systems. I guess someone could try to work out the $ numbers to compare them over one full Red sensor generation, then weigh it against the quality of the work they've accumulated through that period and how that work measures up to the day's new standards. But that wouldn't work that well either since VDSLRs and Reds would most likely working different markets. Right? Either way, I think that makes RAW + color science updates sound extremely sexy vs. surprisingly great disposable crash cams.

BTW, I am keeping my 7D.
 
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Barry_Green said:
Sure there are.

But you still have two diametrically opposed technologies -- what's good for stills is not good for video. What's good for video is not good for stills. So you have to pick your compromise.

Do you go with a still camera, and get all the aliasing/moire/lousy form factor that goes along with it, compromising your video, but getting a cheap price?
...
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All good points. But, even if Canon decides not to “go there’ I think there are some compromises that can actually work for less money than a dedicated system like Red. I understand that what’s good for one isn’t good for the other. But if they (Canon) could incorporate some of their existing ideas from standard camcorders and modify them a little I think most folks could live with some of those compromises.

Like for example…modern camcorders have ND filters internally that assists shooters in bright light situations. Instead of needing any of that with an interchangeable lens system, like these DSLRs, they could substitute it with a proper anti-aliasing filter for the video mode. When you switch modes back to stills then the proper filter would set itself back for taking pictures. Maybe shoot for higher frame rates as opposed to higher pixel count (like Red does).

I agree with James Cameron’s view about a 2k camera at a higher frame rate (in this case 48fps) would have just as much detail as a 4K camera shooting 24fps. Canon and other DSLR manufacturers already show us they can do 60p…easily. Some of my ideas are not anything they are not already capable of doing today…for far less money (than a Red that is). …just my 2 pence…


EDIT: But yeah...a dedicated system is ideal. I'm poor...for right now...so I need something decent that I can fantasize with :) . <<A camera that is>>>
 
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