Varicam pricing

I don't disagree with any of the above. All I was saying that, if I were listening to a retail pitch from a Panasonic sales reps - or reps selling/renting their gear - I'd be far more likely to hear the work flow related sentences first before getting the spiel about the image .........
And I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm appreciating you're just reporting the Panasonic line. But if they are saying the Varicam enables a better workflow than their competitors - then again, just how? It just seems they are emphasising how good some things are (which may be true) - but ignoring that their competitors are doing the same. That line of marketing may work at the lower end of the market, but is likely to be counter-productive here for the reasons you give - "a customer in the Varicam price range would know not only specs of every camera out there". If it really does give significant workflow advantages, then what are they? All I've heard to date indicates how it more or less matches it's competition - not surpasses.

Even that wouldn't matter if the pricing was lower, or even equal. As it stands, it just looks bad value for money.


I suspect that Panasonic, being one of the big boys, will leave itself a nice avenue of retreat from this $55K price point. It's actually easier to do so with a more modular unit. Sony adjusted downward some of the companion pieces to FS-700, including the camera itself, while keeping the others (R5) at their old levels.
I know what you're saying, but it fits around a model for a company that are first to market with a revolutionary product that people are prepared to pay a bit over the odds for at the start. Once that market is filled, and once competition starts to arrive, you keep it competitive with price reductions. (And yes, selectively reducing the prices of parts of the system, better still.)

But it's not what we're talking about here. Red probably set the going initially as far as s35 and 4k, and RAW suited their initial customers. Sony and Canon extended it with such as the F5/55 and the C300, and in camera codecs for 4k with the F55. Panasonic are playing catchup - they're at least a couple of years late. They've admitted they got strategy wrong by not embracing s35/4k much earlier, and whilst I think everybody is agreed that they're now on the right track, it's far too late to price your entry product high, far too late for the early adopters. It just gets compared to what's already out there - and people just think "poor value for money".
Then again, with Sony pondering 8K and ARRI, Sony and Red already having 6K cams out, it'd make a lot of sense for Panasonic to move into this 6K-8K area also.
I wouldn't underestimate the cost of initial high tech R&D, and that's especially true for sensor chips.

Any manufacturer has got to think how to recoup that - before even thinking about any profit! - and the classic ways are to start off with a higher price (and let early adopters pay that) and to try to take advantage of economies of scale by using the same chip across a range of product. That's exactly what Sony have done with the F5 chip, also using it in the FS7 and FS700. It should benefit everyone - higher end users by lower prices due to the economies of scale, lower end users by getting a higher quality chipset than they may otherwise expect.

But to make the strategy work, you've got to be in at the start, and really need a headstart of some months without competition.

The alternative is just go for the mass market, make use of existing tech, and price low. That's what we've seen such as AJA and Black Magic try and do.
 
Ya, as I was writing it the post, I was wondering where Panasonic would get the 6K chip. If they go Full Frame, it could be one of the re-purposed Sony sensors from 24 MPX A7. Presumably Sony won't require a huge crippling of camera features for that piece. (Sony gets to keep the 36 MPX chip from A7r and D810 for itself or willing partners)

But I don't think Panasonic feels being late to the game. Even the US TV universe wasn't going heavily into 4K until this season. Globally, the market is still for the taking and Panasonic can easily work the mass purchase deals to a select group of major clients.

BTW, insofar as Sony goes, I assume a lot of buyers would rather not do business with a competitor (i.e, Sony Studios). Red has had its problems. ARRI still doesn't have a 4K camera suitable for the TV production (although, the open gate Alexa with the anamorphic lense would do on quality ... had it been "real" 4K). C500 doesn't have the internal 4K. So, Panasonic isn't in as bad a shape as might be believed.
 
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But I don't think Panasonic feels being late to the game. Even the US TV universe wasn't going heavily into 4K until this season. Globally, the market is still for the taking and Panasonic can easily work the mass purchase deals to a select group of major clients.
The "game" is not just 4k - it's large sensor as well, and as such even Sony and Canon were well behind Red. I know a *LOT* of F5/55s have been sold primarily to work now in HD, and that's before we even think about the likes of the C300 etc. The appeal of the F55 (and in principle the Varicam) is that it isn't just a 4k camera - it does good 1080, is large format, and is 4k ready. And I'd distinguish between a 4k end product and 4k acquisition. It is certainly true that a 4k end product may not now be common - but 4k acquisition is far more so, certainly at the higher end.

If the policy is what you say - "Panasonic can easily work the mass purchase deals to a select group of major clients", then presumably you mean they will supply product at a very low price to a select few as a "loss leader" to try to establish market penetration? Otherwise they may as well just cut the price, period! I'm not so sure such an approach is so likely to work nowadays - it may have done in tape days, when a major client would need freelancers to deliver on a particular format, but now, does it matter if such as a freelance delivers XAVC or AVC-Ultra?

And if you're not part of the select group to get the cheap deal, if you're an owner operator looking to buy a single unit and having to pay full list, then why spend twice as much on a Varicam as a F55?
 
A single owner-operator will always be at a "tactical" disadvantage against studios and TV stations/networks that can buy in bulk, including not only the cameras themselves but the related equipment and, as far as I know, Panasonic manufactures the entire setup, from switchers to monitors to grading/editing stations, etc., and thus can offer these package deals. That's what they showed at the IBC and, I assume, that's what will be at the top of their sales pitches around the globe.

As to the market penetration, I was reading a Sony PDF a couple of months ago that proudly announced that there were over 500 F-65 and F-55 cameras out in the field. (not sure of the PDF origination date but it appeared to be late summer'2014 because it was also announcing some updates) And, when you consider the size of the global pro camera market that is only now beginning to switch to 4K/6K image acquisition, 500 is not even a tip of the iceberg.
 
Panasonic is having a VariCam demo in Florida next Wednesday(11/12). I'm actually going to be in FL shooting next week, but unfortunately, I'm going to be working when it's going on… And too far away. The demo is near Orlando and I'll be in Miami. But if you live around there or will be in the area, it'd be a great opportunity to check it out.
 
Has anyone looks over the manuals for the two new Vari's yet? One (or really two, since there are two of them) interesting(scary) thing is the power consumption. Penny is saying "with all optional accessories connected and maximum power supplied to each output terminal" that the 35 pulls 99 watts and the HS(2/3") pulls 90 watts. Now "all optional accessories connected" isn't explained or defined (does that mean just the control panel and VF or what else?) and I understand that there's a lot going on in there and they're giving a 'maximum draw'/worst case scenario number, but that's a lot of juice.
 
And another thing… Looking at the manual and latest brochure, the 35 doesn't appear that it can do 4K/2K @ 120fps like Panny was touting. The manual and brochure both list the maximum frame rate as 60(59.94)p @ 4K/2K. I don't recall 120fps being described as a feature that was going to be added at a later date than when it initially ships. It still says 1-120fps @ 4K on the VariCam page describing the 35 on Pannys site. And it seems like a pretty big 'typo' to let slide by, if in fact it is a mistake in the manual and brochure, especially considering that HFR recording is so in-demand and such a big selling point.

BTW, the HS manual does confirm 240fps, but over 120fps you have to change recording codecs from AVC-INTRA 100 to AVC-INTRA 100(HS) and "performance will degrade partially", according to the note in the manual. And if you did choose, or needed to shoot, 720p, you can't shoot VFR or HFR.
 
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And another thing… Looking at the manual and latest brochure, the 35 doesn't appear that it can do 4K/2K @ 120fps like Panny was touting. The manual and brochure both list the maximum frame rate as 60(59.94)p @ 4K/2K. I don't recall 120fps being described as a feature that was going to be added at a later date than when it initially ships. It still says 1-120fps @ 4K on the VariCam page describing the 35 on Pannys site. And it seems like a pretty big 'typo' to let slide by, if in fact it is a mistake in the manual and brochure, especially considering that HFR recording is so in-demand and such a big selling point.

BTW, the HS manual does confirm 240fps, but over 120fps you have to change recording codecs from AVC-INTRA 100 to AVC-INTRA 100(HS) and "performance will degrade partially", according to the note in the manual. And if you did choose, or needed to shoot, 720p, you can't shoot VFR or HFR.
Max frame rate in recording and probably not in hfr mode
e.g. In 24p frame rate, but shooting 60 frames.
 
Has anyone looks over the manuals for the two new Vari's yet? One (or really two, since there are two of them) interesting(scary) thing is the power consumption. Penny is saying "with all optional accessories connected and maximum power supplied to each output terminal" that the 35 pulls 99 watts and the HS(2/3") pulls 90 watts. Now "all optional accessories connected" isn't explained or defined (does that mean just the control panel and VF or what else?) and I understand that there's a lot going on in there and they're giving a 'maximum draw'/worst case scenario number, but that's a lot of juice.

Not really - F65 is 105-109W with just the camera, VF and recorder.

Alexa Classic is approx 90w I believe, higher for the XT.

Cameras are getting fairly power hungry now.
 
I don't think that's comparing like with like - the F5/55 are a far closer comparison to the Varicam in terms of most specs, and the F55 is specced at "Approx. 25 W (while recording XAVC 4K 60p, EVF Off, LCD monitor Off, 4K SDI On)"

OK, that's without v/f - but the DVF-L350 is only rated at 1.2W according to B&H! ( http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/898432-REG/Sony_DVF_L350_LCD_Viewfinder.html )

The Varicam is maybe most associated in the past with documentary type shoots and typically in remote places. If the new Varicam intends to capitalise on the reputation, nearly 100 watts power drain is going to rule it out for many. But (as Run&Gun says), what is meant by "all optional accessories connected and maximum power supplied to each output terminal"? Surely it would be more useful to give the basic figure?
 
And another thing… Looking at the manual and latest brochure, the 35 doesn't appear that it can do 4K/2K @ 120fps like Panny was touting. The manual and brochure both list the maximum frame rate as 60(59.94)p @ 4K/2K.
Interesting...... I heard doubts about true 4k and 120fps over two months ago - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...cam-HS&p=1986475080&viewfull=1#post1986475080

If 120fps at true 4k resolution is important to you, I would strongly suggest getting proper chart tests at normal and 120fps before parting with any money, and see if the static resolution is the same for each.

But I suspect the high power consumption is likely to be much more of a negative issue for most people?
 
For anyone interested, I'm hearing 120fps on the 35 will be coming around January as an update. Possibly tied to the CODEX RAW recorder, but not 100% sure. Gonna find out more in the next few days. My rep was actually out doing demo's with the Vari today(just got their hands on it yesterday) and wasn't in.
 
Having that sort of money would you go for varicam 35 or arri alexa/amira? That dual base iso feature alone might be a killer, game changing feature IMO.
 
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For anyone interested, I'm hearing 120fps on the 35 will be coming around January as an update. Possibly tied to the CODEX RAW recorder, but not 100% sure. Gonna find out more in the next few days. My rep was actually out doing demo's with the Vari today(just got their hands on it yesterday) and wasn't in.

This from the codex crowd as I wanted to see if they had them up and running - shooting with Varicam from Jan 5 - 12.

Hello Noel,

Our 4K RAW Recorder is not yet available for the Varicam. We will have a
working model of the 4K RAW Recorder at NAB. We may have some early test
units before then but unfortunately they would not be avail in time.

If you have any other questions or I can be of any further assistance
please let me know.

Regards,



Kellie Hiatt
Business Development Manager
 
Power consumption is a huge problem with the 4th gen Varicams. I'm already carrying 6-8 AB Hytron 140 batts@5 lbs each for a 40 w setup. Now I will have to double that. Plus the 256 Gb Express P2 has no laptopless field media copy device like the AG-MSU10. Certainly I'm not going to be having too much 256 Gb Express P2s around. It's so expensive. Too much equipment and gear to be carried on the field. Going be a challenge in the wilderness. Reconsidering if it's worthwhile to get that high frame rate.

Interesting...... I heard doubts about true 4k and 120fps over two months ago - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...cam-HS&p=1986475080&viewfull=1#post1986475080

If 120fps at true 4k resolution is important to you, I would strongly suggest getting proper chart tests at normal and 120fps before parting with any money, and see if the static resolution is the same for each.

But I suspect the high power consumption is likely to be much more of a negative issue for most people?
 
Power consumption is a huge problem with the 4th gen Varicams. I'm already carrying 6-8 AB Hytron 140 batts@5 lbs each for a 40 w setup. Now I will have to double that.
And if you want 120fps (so need the Codex box) it'll be a lot more than double....! The Codex box is apparently over 30watts!! by itself, so if Run&Gun was right with his figures you're looking then around 125 watts!

And a lot of people are trying to keep their Lithium batteries below the magic 100Wh figure to help if they have to fly with them.
 
So if you want 120fps at true 4k (actually 150fps!) it seems that the the several year old RED Epic is still the one to go for! Much less money and power draw too!
Steve
 
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