Varicam pricing
- Thread starter steve phillipps
- Start date
Ya but then, Red Dragon, F55/65 and Alexa I (although perhaps not outside the US for Alexa) will be facing the same or similar problems. The feature films and the mega million TV series will still use the best product out there but the difference in quality, for not just an average viewer with rabbit ears but a discerning viewer on a 60"+ 4K set at home and a 100 Mbps download speed, will still be slim to none.
FWIW, my C300 MK II opening MSRP guess is $10,000. Pretty much everyone on the C300 MK II thread disagrees. When I point out that FS7 is already going for $8,000 and Cion for $9,000, they shrug their shoulders.
steve phillipps
Veteran
Well the majority of people thought the new Varicams would be priced between F5 and F55 - and boy were they wrong!
Thing with Dragon and Alexa is that they've been in the market for ages now and so are established. Also the Epic is much cheaper and arguably higher spec (ie 6k sensor) - an Epic with PL mount and viewfinder is £16,000 while the Varicam is £26,000!!!
Steve
Thing with Dragon and Alexa is that they've been in the market for ages now and so are established. Also the Epic is much cheaper and arguably higher spec (ie 6k sensor) - an Epic with PL mount and viewfinder is £16,000 while the Varicam is £26,000!!!
Steve
I was one of those wronged people ... (I blame Panasonic, as I was clearly in the right, if only slightly ahead of time) ...
By the way, I am old enough to remember the "CD wars" of the 1980's, where "DDD" was deemed as the pinnacle of audio engineering (recorded/mixed/mastered in analog vs. digital) compared to AAD and ADD. I suspect that, once 4K picks up steam on the image acquisition front, we'll begin seeing these "recorded in 4K" scrolls to differentiate themselves from the simply upscaled 1080P content, which will dominate in the syndicated/rerun sector for many more years. That will make the Alexa favoring DP's really fight hard for their camera (resolution wise, a ~ 5.7MPX 4:3 image shot with an anamorphic lens will be easily upscaled to 4K but studios won't be able to make that DDD claim for any of the Alexa generated footage, whereas they will for anything shot on FS7, URSA, A7s+Shogun, FS700+Q7 and even NX1 and GH4).
Australian pricing for the next 3 months.
Package includes:
Varicam Body
Varicam Recording unit
Shoulder Plate
EVF
256GB Express P2 Card (approx 70 minutes at 4k AVCIntra 4:2:2 - half for 444)
USB 3 single slot Express p2 Card reader.
Available from LEMAC or John Barry.
I'd expect Lemac to have rental stock soon.
Panavision have panavised versions.
Package includes:
Varicam Body
Varicam Recording unit
Shoulder Plate
EVF
256GB Express P2 Card (approx 70 minutes at 4k AVCIntra 4:2:2 - half for 444)
USB 3 single slot Express p2 Card reader.
Available from LEMAC or John Barry.
I'd expect Lemac to have rental stock soon.
Panavision have panavised versions.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Like I said earlier, 'buy the market'. Make it so attractive people can't say NO. I think if they get the s35 package down to $35k, people will really start to consider it. I'd much rather shoot on it than an F5/55. With the price apparently dropping, the only real hang-up in my book now(besides a client that wants the new Vari) is the lack of a global shutter.
Does anyone else think the timing of this is a little odd? Only a month before NAB. I wonder if it has anything to do with the rumor I heard a few months ago about another possible professional s35/4k cam from Panny. Think s35/4k HDX-900.
Does anyone else think the timing of this is a little odd? Only a month before NAB. I wonder if it has anything to do with the rumor I heard a few months ago about another possible professional s35/4k cam from Panny. Think s35/4k HDX-900.
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And I was one of the many people who thought the s35 Varicam (with recorder) **SHOULD** (not "would"!
) have been priced at that level, and this offer just seems to reinforce that viewpoint. The initial price was ridiculous.So soon after launch, I can only assume it's a sign that sales figures have not been anywhere near what was hoped for, and to a lot of people that won't come as a surprise. Nothing wrong with the camera itself - it's simply pricing.
The trouble is, will that price drop be enough? If not, it could leave Panasonic in the position of making a lot less per unit sale - whilst still not getting the volume needed to make a profit.
The message I'm getting from a couple of people I know (recent F55 buyers) is probably not. Even if the Varicam had been available at that price when they bought, they say they'd probably still have gone for the F55, and quote amongst the reasons power consumption, global/rolling shutter, and RAW modes. For a user to whom RAW is significant, the Varicam is severely disadvantaged by the lack of RAW compression.
I can't fault their logic, and it follows that the Varicam would be expected to be priced below the F55 - especially as the newcomer trying to break in. Which STILL doesn't appear to be anywhere near the case. I foresee the price having to drop quite a lot further for sales to really take off.
And this brings us back to an "intermediate" 4K Varicam, in the F5 price range. I said that the design is obviously possible but that the Varicam needs an avenue of retreat from its original price. And now we're seeing that retreat (which was inevitable ... sooner or later).
And that potential F5 competitor will be sandwiched by an AF-100 replacement on the bottom too.
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steve phillipps
Veteran
The big deal for me is the 120fps 4k, elevates it way above the F55 for certain uses - but it still needs to be competitively priced to make any sort of impact - especially when you can get an Epic body for about half the price! I agree with you, the price drop had to come, but does need to be much more of a drop for most buyers to take much interest.
Steve
And I was one of the many people who thought the s35 Varicam (with recorder) **SHOULD** (not "would"!
So soon after launch, I can only assume it's a sign that sales figures have not been anywhere near what was hoped for, and to a lot of people that won't come as a surprise. Nothing wrong with the camera itself - it's simply pricing.
The trouble is, will that price drop be enough? If not, it could leave Panasonic in the position of making a lot less per unit sale - whilst still not getting the volume needed to make a profit.
The message I'm getting from a couple of people I know (recent F55 buyers) is probably not. Even if the Varicam had been available at that price when they bought, they say they'd probably still have gone for the F55, and quote amongst the reasons power consumption, global/rolling shutter, and RAW modes. For a user to whom RAW is significant, the Varicam is severely disadvantaged by the lack of RAW compression.
I can't fault their logic, and it follows that the Varicam would be expected to be priced below the F55 - especially as the newcomer trying to break in. Which STILL doesn't appear to be anywhere near the case. I foresee the price having to drop quite a lot further for sales to really take off.
There's not a lot I agree with in this or above statements from others - Ive used the camera for about two weeks. I think the one thing I can agree on is market timing and perception is the wall that needs to be climbed and thus a price reduction will certainly help get units out the door. So, with reduced price and Alexa comparable images, it certainly has a chance. Where you guys may be right is market perception - what should the price be? Seems lower than Pana's initial price if that's the communities perception.
This camera has dual ISO. There's no other camera that does. It achieves it by having two analog circuits and when you select 5000 iso, it switches from one to the other - 5000 has 1db more noise than 800. There is no other camera that can shoot cleaner at 5000. The max ISO is 12400 (think thats it though no time to double check atm). In addition to this - there is no noise reduction employed on the incoming signal at all. 0. Compare that to other systems.
I happen to know a couple of F55 owner operators that are shifting over, the difference may be that these two guys Im referring to had some time with the Varicam.
First, just to clarify a point in the quote above - it does have RAW, the RAW recorder isn't proprietary, it's coming from CODEX - but I suspect similar pricing to the Sony unit, announcement on that coming at NAB I believe. Where was the info coming from that it has no RAW?
What the Varicam marketing does say and it may be missed by some on this forum, is the workflow - it's simply the best there is and makes great steps in simplifying it. From on set monitoring with LUTS to onset LUT creation to grading. Less cabling, less requirement - easier. A number of DOPS I spoke to at the upper end last week were very impressed due to the post control this lets them get while they are still on set. I've seen it in action - and it just works. Panasonic sat down with many users and with heavy input from Michael Cioni of LightIron went through the entire process from shoot to post, with whats out there and what is needed. GO to this page and compare workflow to any tool out there: http://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/varicam/35/workflow.html
The rolling shutter is discernible. Panasonic followed the Alexa - because its the current cinema market leader. Funny that in all my shot testing, rolling shutter is one that I didn't think about. What I mean is, I didn't think to test it. I never saw an issue with it either. Im going to look through my footage.
Power consumption is less than Alexa. This camera is targeted at the Alexa market and whilst the F55 sits around there the comparison ends at price (once you've used it).
As a Red Epic Dragon owner and someone who owned many Panasonic cameras (Prosumer ones), I think where Panasonic failed is on the form factor of the camera. Its obviously inspired on the Alexa, but lets just say that even Arri had to look at the Red camp for inspiration on its new model. Yes, its the ENG size and most cameramen love this for on the shoulder shots, but for usage in different types of support like gymbals aero, steadicams, cranes (yes, industry high end cope with it fine on traditional mounting and support gear) its just too outdated. The key here would be modularity.
Panasonic should have taken the Varicam brand and targeted it to owner/operators, just like Red did: More sales, more examples of footage. At the same time, endorse a couple of Hollywood Productions. Red established itself with an introductory price of 17500 USD. Very aggressive, but opened the door. Yes, Varicam was an "established" brand- but for TV/ ENG / Documentary. I think Panasonic should've made an effort and been more aggressive on its resurgence in the High End market. Specially because it has such an unique and extraordinary product. Sincerely, would love to use it on my Macau Grand Prix Videos.
Panasonic should have taken the Varicam brand and targeted it to owner/operators, just like Red did: More sales, more examples of footage. At the same time, endorse a couple of Hollywood Productions. Red established itself with an introductory price of 17500 USD. Very aggressive, but opened the door. Yes, Varicam was an "established" brand- but for TV/ ENG / Documentary. I think Panasonic should've made an effort and been more aggressive on its resurgence in the High End market. Specially because it has such an unique and extraordinary product. Sincerely, would love to use it on my Macau Grand Prix Videos.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I think the F55 is kind of a design embarrassment - the Vari seems to have all the holes (apart from rolling shutter) filled .. so a lame donkey for X or a horse for X+30% seems to offer better value.
It would be great if they made a cable to split the varicam for gimbal use et al.
S
It would be great if they made a cable to split the varicam for gimbal use et al.
S
I confess I don't fully understand the fine detail of the technicalities, but it's been explained to me that the dual ISO function may make little difference to the final image. The principle is that any given sensor will have a given dynamic range, and the ends of it correspond to minimum and maximum clipping levels on the photosites. Consequently - *to get the full dynamic range* - there is only one useful ISO value the camera may be operated at.
Obviously (as any camera) it can be switched to differing ISOs - but the drawback is then it won't have the same DR. The available DR can be biased to highlights or lowlights, but at the end of the day you can't make something which didn't exist in the first place. That should make intuitive sense. It apparently follows (and this is the bit I don't fully understand) that the output of any comparable camera which allows extensive post can be made to look the same in post. Yes, it's true the Varicam has a SLIGHT advantage because of the dual analogue circuitry, optimising sensor read for low light mode, but at 1dB it's slight - only a small fraction of a stop.
There is no info that it doesn't have a RAW ability (via the Codex box) - but if you read again what I put, my statement was it has a "lack of RAW compression". AFAIK, the Codex box will only manage *uncompressed* RAW, and consequently huge file sizes and data rates - which must be seen as a huge disadvantage to the Varicam/Codex if RAW acquisition is needed. (And if the Codex box is needed for 120fps 4K, and if that is RAW, then twice the normal RAW datarate for 120fps, then...... wow!
) But surely that depends on what your workflow is? Some users (such as the BBC NHU) seem to have settled on 4K RAW acquisition, to give best possible "digital negative" for any future usage, whilst "here and now" post is done at 2k. With the Varicam's lack of RAW compression, it here shows up poorly against it's main competitors?
Again - it depends. Shoot fast action, and I understand it would show up. With slower sequences I'm sure it wouldn't. I believe it to be about the same as the F5 - may be OK much of the time, but it's one reason some people have gone for the F55 ahead of it.
I think if you go for the RAW option in each case, it's somewhat more, but maybe that's splitting hairs. It remains it is substantially higher than other cameras such as the F55. And if for something like drama it may not matter too much. But I've tended to associate the term "Varicam" with such as high-end wildlife film making in the past - surely for that type of work power consumption must be of importance?
steve phillipps
Veteran
I agree pretty much with what you say, and in fact you only have to look at the sales figures and market penetration to answer a lot of the questions and debate - it's hardly made any impact at all. If it's meant tyo be a niche camera in a very tiny portion of the market then that's fine, maybe it's succeeding and doing its job - but I'd have expected Panny to have had higher hopes for their new Varicam - in other words for it to make the kind of impact that the original one did.
As for rolling shutter, it's quite possible that it's not a big deal - a lot of the big budget BBC wildlife stuff over last few years, including "Life Story" has been shot on RED Epic, which has rolling shutter too, and I've never seen any trace of skew on stuff I've shot or in any of the programmes, even with fast-moving stuff. The other camera used a lot in the last few years is the Phantom HD and that has rolling shutter too.
For me the problem with the new Varicams is not the rolling shutter - it's that it doesn't offer enough above the competition for the extra money. In the past it was different - if you wanted smooth slow motion you had virtually no choice but go Varicam, all the other HD camcorders maxed out at 30fps.
Steve
The Dual Circutry basically means two Native ISOs, so two ISOs at which it can access it's dynamic range, I'm pretty sure.
No - not possible. "Native ISO" is mainly defined by the characteristics of the sensor photosites, and where a given scene (say with 15 stops difference) just causes one photosite to just respond, and a photosite at the other end of the range to just saturate.
For any given lighting range, there will only be one value of f stop to give this - so only one "native ISO".
I can see how the analogue circuitry may be optimised for final desired ISO, but - as Noel has said - it can't make a lot of difference. In this case he quotes 1dB.
Run&Gun
Veteran
The new Vari DOES split in two pieces with an umbilical connecting the head and deck for uses like that. I don't think that cable is available yet, but that was/is one of the bullet points they made with it's features.
Run&Gun
Veteran
There is no info that it doesn't have a RAW ability (via the Codex box) - but if you read again what I put, my statement was it has a "lack of RAW compression". AFAIK, the Codex box will only manage *uncompressed* RAW, and consequently huge file sizes and data rates - which must be seen as a huge disadvantage to the Varicam/Codex if RAW acquisition is needed. (And if the Codex box is needed for 120fps 4K, and if that is RAW, then twice the normal RAW datarate for 120fps, then...... wow!
It will do 120FPS internal to P2 Express cards recording a 'modified' AVC codec.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I believe he said it only added 1dB of NOISE to the image.