Varicam pricing

I don't agree it's not an F65 competitor just because it has a rolling shutter and is not more than a 4K sensor. The Alexa is an f65 rival not an F55 one, and it has a rolling shutter and a 2.8k sensor.

It's about the actual end imahe quality, resolving power, colour science, dynamic range, lowlight performance, build quality of the body and the workflow, these would be the only way to determine where it fits in the market.

I don't see the price high, not higher than alexa/f65, but if the camera itself is f55 quality, then sure it's overpriced.

The footage I've seen so far, are absolutely impressive, one of the better/best digital images, and also the reviews from those who actually (well not full reviews) are very impressive, and I find this way more important as an indicator of the camera performance than analyzing the spec sheet and discussing the pixel count after debayering.

The images I've seen so far at F65/alexa league, not fs7/f5/f55. But I am too picky.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I find this way more important as an indicator of the camera performance than analyzing the spec sheet and discussing the pixel count after debayering.

The images I've seen so far at F65/alexa league, not fs7/f5/f55. But I am too picky.
Click to expand...
At this sort of price, you have every right to be picky! :)

But you see images from (say) the Varicam, and compare them with another set from (say) the F55, and what does it tell you? If one set seem better than the other is it because one is the superior camera - or because it was shot by a more skilled operator, with better grading, and with more artistic lighting? And that's before we even start to think about whether any opinion is being influenced by choice of subject, storyline etc.

To do any sort of meaningful comparative test, you have to remove as many variables as possible. The other problem with footage shot specifically as a camera promo is that if a particular type of scene was found problematic - just leave it out. There has to be a consistency of testing to give any sort of meaningful comparison.

I've seen some superb results produced from an F5 - I've also seen some which may best be described as mediocre. Does this mean the camera itself is prone to having "off-days"? :) I'd put it down to factors nothing to do with the camera - rather the ones such as above like operator skill, lighting, grading etc. Same with other cameras of this standard.
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I don't see the price high, not higher than alexa/f65, but if the camera itself is f55 quality, then sure it's overpriced.
Click to expand...
It would be interesting to see the Varicam and F55 used side by side with the same operator, same lighting, same scene, same lenses, etc etc. I wish. In the absence of that, then I'd maintain that specs can probably tell us more than images shot thousands of miles apart, by different operators with different lighting etc. And in that respect I'd maintain the F5 was probably a closer match to the Varicam than the F55 - largely because of the rolling/global shutter factor. Which is why the Varicam is indeed perceived as overpriced.

As far as rolling shutter artifacting goes, then be careful because it can be got over in two ways - either a true global shutter (as with the F55), or by the use of a mechanical rotating shutter (as with the F65) - and I thought the Alexa had the same arrangement, combined with optical viewfinding via such means?

Broadly, I agree with things you say such as "It's about .... dynamic range, lowlight performance, build quality of the body and the workflow, these would be the only way to determine where it fits in the market." But (staying with F5 as the comparator) the F5 there is either very similar or has some large advantages in very practical aspects. Power consumption and ease of implementing RAW are probably the two that most spring to mind. Dynamic range and lowlight performance seem very similar between the two. (Hardly surprising given the similarity of the sensor specs.)
 
steve phillipps said:
So if you want 120fps at true 4k (actually 150fps!) it seems that the the several year old RED Epic is still the one to go for! Much less money and power draw too!
Steve
Click to expand...

Varicam will do 120 fps RAW 4k once the RAW recorder is released. With the batteries we were using, also powering the ATOMOS Shogun via Dtap, we were getting around 120 minutes of on time.

Not posting this to debate your point, just adding the info.
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
It's about the actual end imahe quality, resolving power, colour science, dynamic range, lowlight performance, build quality of the body and the workflow, these would be the only way to determine where it fits in the market.
Click to expand...

Just to respond to these points as stand alone and without comparison. The end image quality is exceptional. The inbuilt OLFP and IR filter, do not detract from a very highly resolved appearance. There is no sign of any artifacting etc in any way on real world imagine - no idea about charts, I don't concern myself with them UNLESS, I'm seeing issues in real world images for the purposes of knowing what the issue is stemming from. Dynamic range - didn't note it in my video, putting it out there like that without substantive evidence is a bit silly IMO, however the results are very promising, and the placement of the usable range is what matters and they've got that right. Build quality of the body, exceptional. The workflow goes from high end to medium - remember the RAW recorder is coming. And that is all a pretty simple process. Resolve will also let you take in test shots and create a Varicam specific LUT.
 
Noel Evans said:
Varicam will do 120 fps RAW 4k once the RAW recorder is released. With the batteries we were using, also powering the ATOMOS Shogun via Dtap, we were getting around 120 minutes of on time.

Not posting this to debate your point, just adding the info.
Click to expand...

For sure, and a big talking / selling point of the camera is the 120fps RAW, but like I said I find it weird that Panny are talking that up, so late in the game, when it's bested by a several year old machine in both frame rate and sensor resolution! (and even price to top it all off!)

Steve
 
Ebrahim Saadawi said:
I don't agree it's not an F65 competitor just because it has a rolling shutter and is not more than a 4K sensor. The Alexa is an f65 rival not an F55 one, and it has a rolling shutter and a 2.8k sensor.

It's about the actual end imahe quality, resolving power, colour science, dynamic range, lowlight performance, build quality of the body and the workflow, these would be the only way to determine where it fits in the market.

I don't see the price high, not higher than alexa/f65, but if the camera itself is f55 quality, then sure it's overpriced.

The footage I've seen so far, are absolutely impressive, one of the better/best digital images, and also the reviews from those who actually (well not full reviews) are very impressive, and I find this way more important as an indicator of the camera performance than analyzing the spec sheet and discussing the pixel count after debayering.

The images I've seen so far at F65/alexa league, not fs7/f5/f55. But I am too picky.
Click to expand...

Geoff Boyle included the Varicam in his new camera tests. He commented that it had the best color of all the current test cams. From the few samples I've seen I really like the image aesthetics .
 
Noel Evans said:
Varicam will do 120 fps RAW 4k once the RAW recorder is released. .
Click to expand...
By that, do they mean that 120fps recording will only be available in RAW mode - or that you need the RAW recorder to do it, but you can then record 120fps AVC-Ultra?

Because if the former, and with the Varicam RAW only being uncompressed, we're then talking about really, really huge bitrates and filesizes.......
Noel Evans said:
With the batteries we were using, also powering the ATOMOS Shogun via Dtap, we were getting around 120 minutes of on time.
Click to expand...
But looking at your video, they look to be pretty big batteries - at least 200Wh at a guess?

And with all the Li-Ion restrictions on airlines now, then most people I know are going for 95Wh max in order to be able to fly with them. Given that the traditional strength of the Varicam brand has been for such as wildlife etc filming, I don't think you can get away from the fact that the power consumption issue is a pretty big negative - as lonewolf said earlier?
Noel Evans said:
Build quality of the body, exceptional. The workflow goes from high end to medium - remember the RAW recorder is coming.
Click to expand...
Yes, but unlike most other RAW implementations in cameras of this type, the Varicam isn't able to do it with any form of compression - which means truly staggering filesizes. Which comes back again to target markets. It's the last thing such as wildlife filmmakers with restricted resources want - from what I hear the F55 RAW filesizes are bad enough - the Varicam will increase the problem several fold.

About build quality, I heard a few concerns about the docking nature of the head/recorder section. (And the B4-s35 adaptors seem to be a better way to deal with long zoom lenses anyway). That becomes especially true if you have all the extra weight on the rear - RAW recorder, and having to use high capacity (heavy) batteries - the Varicam is quite long anyway, and all that gives quite a big twisting moment on the join.
 
harddrive said:
By that, do they mean that 120fps recording will only be available in RAW mode - or that you need the RAW recorder to do it, but you can then record 120fps AVC-Ultra?

Because if the former, and with the Varicam RAW only being uncompressed, we're then talking about really, really huge bitrates and filesizes.......
Click to expand...

Sorry that's my bad. 120fps is coming down the line in firmware - 240fps requires the raw recorder.

harddrive said:
But looking at your video, they look to be pretty big batteries - at least 200Wh at a guess?
Click to expand...

Interestingly, didn't note it. I'll check with the 1st and get back.

harddrive said:
Yes, but unlike most other RAW implementations in cameras of this type, the Varicam isn't able to do it with any form of compression - which means truly staggering filesizes. Which comes back again to target markets. It's the last thing such as wildlife filmmakers with restricted resources want - from what I hear the F55 RAW filesizes are bad enough - the Varicam will increase the problem several fold.
Click to expand...

To be fair, both the F55 and Varicam come with recording options far more suited to doco than raw.

harddrive said:
About build quality, I heard a few concerns about the docking nature of the head/recorder section. (And the B4-s35 adaptors seem to be a better way to deal with long zoom lenses anyway). That becomes especially true if you have all the extra weight on the rear - RAW recorder, and having to use high capacity (heavy) batteries - the Varicam is quite long anyway, and all that gives quite a big twisting moment on the join.
Click to expand...

Not sure where this info came from, but I had no issue with the mount between the head and recorder - it was rock solid and uses a release latch that's buried ensuring there's no way it could be knocked to separate. In addition the tripod plate for this camera bolts on to both sides adding extra support. I never felt in any way there was an issue with this arrangement. We used short lenses such as the Cooke S4s and CP.2's as well as a Canon Zoom and neither gave any concern here. I simply didn't notice it.
 
harddrive said:
About build quality, I heard a few concerns about the docking nature of the head/recorder section. (And the B4-s35 adaptors seem to be a better way to deal with long zoom lenses anyway). That becomes especially true if you have all the extra weight on the rear - RAW recorder, and having to use high capacity (heavy) batteries - the Varicam is quite long anyway, and all that gives quite a big twisting moment on the join.
Click to expand...

Having spoken with someone that has had their hands on the camera at-length, I think the connection between the head and recorder should not be of ANY concern. Think VCT tripod plate v-lock. And unless you're having to fly with your batteries, you can always get high capacity Li-ion batts. A/B's new Li-ion 205 watt batts are only 3 lbs. That's 2-2.5 lbs LESS than my Hytron 140's and 65 watts more power. Another option, at least for travel within the same country, ship your gear via ground. Cheap and no worries about airline restrictions. OR the new stackable Pag batts.
 
It's a top league. It is together with Alexa in one league when it comes to IQ, IMO nothing else is in that league besides those two. It looks absolutely fantastic, but it won't stir a lot in the market. Middle studios will still go for Red's: because of their versatility (HFR, internal RAW etc.). Big studios will still go for Alexa I suppose.
 
alohype said:
It's a top league. It is together with Alexa in one league when it comes to IQ, IMO nothing else is in that league besides those two. It looks absolutely fantastic, but it won't stir a lot in the market. Middle studios will still go for Red's: because of their versatility (HFR, internal RAW etc.). Big studios will still go for Alexa I suppose.
Click to expand...

And the people that have more or less been the supporters and primary market for the past Vari's(owner/op freelancers in the network world) aren't on Panny's radar with this cam, at least not right now. Panny wants this camera in the rental houses on big projects to create buzz for it. My rep has already told Panasonic that they need to think about making package deals and/or trade in deals like they did with the 2700's and get the owner/ops(MUCH larger maker that the rental houses). Make it so appealing that people have to get it. Buy the market… If they offered a trade in deal like they did on the 2700's(trade-in a working 3-chip broadcast camera w/vf and get one for $20K), I'd order one tomorrow.
 
steve phillipps said:
So if you want 120fps at true 4k (actually 150fps!) it seems that the the several year old RED Epic is still the one to go for! Much less money and power draw too!
Steve
Click to expand...

150fps is only available on Epic at 4k WS. 4k DCI and 4K HD both top out at 120fps on both Epic-MX and Epic Dragon only 4k is an even smaller sensor size on Dragon. The much less expensive and much more light sensitive (than Epic) Sony FS700+7Q will also do 4K 120fps in burst mode, and it's about 10x less expensive than a Varicam 35 :P
 
NEWARK, NJ (February 5, 2015) – Panasonic has announced a free firmware upgrade for its new VariCam 35 4K and VariCam HS camera/recorders that incorporates ProRes 422 HQ* support for HD recording in both models. Additionally, AVC-Intra 4K 4:4:4 12-bit recording,** and AVC-Intra 100 and AVC-Intra 4K-LT (4:2:2) variable frame rate recording support** up to 120fps are new to the VariCam 35.

(buried below- DLD)


** NLE and grading system support for AVC-Intra 4K 4:4:4: 12-bit recording and AVC-Intra 4K VFR to 120p are forthcoming.
Click to expand...
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&itemId=714543
 
Also I think the $55k price was MSRP and the street price as always is lower - plus I think they realised that $55k was a serious amount of money in today's market - it's still a very pricey camera even at this lower price!Steve
 
Here's what it says on Abel Cine's site -

Our price : Add this item to your quote, and a representative will contact you shortly to discuss pricing and availability.
Click to expand...

I think, "pricing and availability" is a legal term that they have to abide by. If they said merely "pricing", then Panasonic would chafe a little. But this is a pretty decent sign that the camera is discounted from its listed MSRP of $55,000.

As to its future, if this has the desired image quality with the minimum post requirements, it'll do well. Alexa is not 4K and most of US TV is going to have to deliver in 4K soon enough (like now). The 6K Alexa II is an overkill. So, that leaves the market with F55/65 and Red Dragon, both of whom have many knocks against them, leaving the Varicam in a pretty decent spot, even without the global shutter. (and if one needs a high FPS sequence, then a studio can always rent Dragon or Phantom for a few days ... meanwhile, most of the TV production is 24p)
 
DLD said:
Here's what it says on Abel Cine's site -



I think, "pricing and availability" is a legal term that they have to abide by. If they said merely "pricing", then Panasonic would chafe a little. But this is a pretty decent sign that the camera is discounted from its listed MSRP of $55,000.

As to its future, if this has the desired image quality with the minimum post requirements, it'll do well. Alexa is not 4K and most of US TV is going to have to deliver in 4K soon enough (like now). The 6K Alexa II is an overkill. So, that leaves the market with F55/65 and Red Dragon, both of whom have many knocks against them, leaving the Varicam in a pretty decent spot, even without the global shutter. (and if one needs a high FPS sequence, then a studio can always rent Dragon or Phantom for a few days ... meanwhile, most of the TV production is 24p)
Click to expand...

I'm curious to know which TV station or network(s) are planning to broadcast 4K over the air or satellite as of today?
Most of them are still at 720p or 1080i. And it's only about 1/3 to 1/2 of the full resolution due to compression. Majority of sub channels are still at a meager 480i. I just don't see how it's possible to just make a huge leap into 4K now. Bandwidth allotment is extremely scarce these days.
 
lonewolf2koc@hotmail.com said:
I'm curious to know which TV station or network(s) are planning to broadcast 4K over the air or satellite as of today? ...
Click to expand...
Is this a sucker's bet or merely a rhetorical?

Everyone knows there'll be no 4K broadcasting until the federal government updates its standards, which won't be any time soon. But that's hardly the point.

steve phillipps said:
That's a reasoned argument DLD, but I don't agree with you, I don't see it making much impact at all, we'll have to see.Steve
Click to expand...
Well, we won't really know unless we begin seeing "Shot on Varicam in 4K" scrolls.

I do think the market will begin to be split among many more players, as Cion, FS7, C300 MK II and models yet uknown enter the pro market in numbers. If C300 MK I was good enough for your basic cable TV, then why woudn't C300 MK II be good enough for basic cable TV in the future?

And, btw, for my taste, "Wilfred" shot on D800 was good enough as well.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top