The SONY FS-700 & The Odyssey7 - Let´s hope to see some affordable HQ-Output!

jcs said:
It appears the sensor drops sampling resolution past 60 fps. Full resolution 240 is marketing spin, just like Canon saying the 5D3 is a full 1920x1080p HD camera (really 1620x910 at best) ;)
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It appears that way based on what exactly? So do you think all 2k raw output from the FS700 will be line-skipped then?

A Sony rep told me the drop in resolution >60fps is not line skipping but rather lower quality debayer/processing. Not sure whether this is true, but its possible I suppose. If that is the case, it's possible 2k RAW from FS700 could look quite good and quite a lot better than its internally debayered recordings for >60fps footage.

If 2k RAW was line skipping and not at least binned or at best scaled from full 4k sensor data, it would likely mean it would result in fairly poor image quality (more noise, more aliasing) and it would be very disappointing. Sony must be smart enough to know this so their 2k RAW is hopefully fairly well designed, and Sony also don't seem to differentiate between 1-60 and 61-240fps 2k raw the way they do with current 1080p options, so there may not be any difference in quality >60fps when talking about RAW output. This leads me to be fairly optimistic about the quality of 240fps 2k raw from the FS700. Seems to me its likely either 2k raw will be disappointing altogether or 2k will be high quality and 240fps raw will be quite impressive compared to current recording options as well.
 
evilthought said:
Let's wait for the official release before asking questions and claiming things.

2K is supposed to be full resolution 2K resolution at 240 fps ... That's the official claim from Sony
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Dear Friends,

I agree with the above statement.

Please note that the spec's for 240 fps using the current (not upgraded) FS700 will be different than the upgraded FS700.

Sony has made it very clear that the 240 fps from the upgraded FS700 will not be a windowed sensor, it will be full 2K (2048 x 1080) at up to 240 fps, and thus no moire due to line skipping (or doubling).

And our Odyssey7Q with the FS700 will faithfully record the Raw Photosites after formatting them for the Cinema DNG format.

Since we will faithfully record all of the data output by the camera, we will not be introducing any image artifacts.

I hope this helps.

Respectfully,


Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
nyvz said:
It appears that way based on what exactly? So do you think all 2k raw output from the FS700 will be line-skipped then?

A Sony rep told me the drop in resolution >60fps is not line skipping but rather lower quality debayer/processing. Not sure whether this is true, but its possible I suppose. If that is the case, it's possible 2k RAW from FS700 could look quite good and quite a lot better than its internally debayered recordings for >60fps footage.

If 2k RAW was line skipping and not at least binned or at best scaled from full 4k sensor data, it would likely mean it would result in fairly poor image quality (more noise, more aliasing) and it would be very disappointing. Sony must be smart enough to know this so their 2k RAW is hopefully fairly well designed, and Sony also don't seem to differentiate between 1-60 and 61-240fps 2k raw the way they do with current 1080p options, so there may not be any difference in quality >60fps when talking about RAW output. This leads me to be fairly optimistic about the quality of 240fps 2k raw from the FS700. Seems to me its likely either 2k raw will be disappointing altogether or 2k will be high quality and 240fps raw will be quite impressive compared to current recording options as well.
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i agree with you, noah.
i've told by Sony people how come it does happen that image loss in 240fps mode and it's basically same with what you've heard from. i can't put the detail here but i'm pretty sure that it's not related with any line skipping kinda stuff.

Sony Japan is going to have a small meeting about the 4K2K from FS700 with HXR-IFR5+AXS-R5 soon. in the meeting we will able to try 4K2K recording with their recorder so hope i can share the information right after that.
 
Dan Keaton said:
Sony has made it very clear that the 240 fps from the upgraded FS700 will not be a windowed sensor, it will be full 2K (2048 x 1080) at up to 240 fps, and thus no moire due to line skipping (or doubling).
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Yes but that does bring up the question how do they get full sensor 2k RAW from a 4k sensor? Scaling bayer data is not so trivial. There are many ways to do it, all with their own downsides and upsides. The best way would be debayer, downscale, then separate channels and record RGB as RAW, but that seems extremely unlikely due to processing power.
 
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All in all the Odyssey7Q looks nice even if I'm waiting for real life tests and see how it performs against Sony's own solution which is more expensive but records 4K RAW.

But... the price of the medias, either CD's SSD's or Sony's AXSM memory cards is steal !

I know that's it's so because it must handle heavy data rates but still, it's too expensive, even if it's PRO SSD's that are tested for sustained at least 500MB/s write speed (and by the way some consumer SSD's meet this requirements) it would have been better to let the consumers choose and buy their own from a recommended list...

My 2 cents.

Cheers.
 
S.Blanchardon said:
But... the price of the medias memory cards is steal !

it would have been better to let the consumers choose and buy their own from a recommended list...
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+1 +1 +1 +1

Absolutely. Saying that they don't want shooters to have problems with inappropriate media is just an excuse to create your own proprietary media for making more profits.
I don't know much about the recorders business side, maybe this needs to be done in order to have an up and running company? I don't know, but what I know is that this kind of business model is not friendly to the consumer.
 
Thank you folks, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one thinking like this !

BTW, it's the exact same "issue" with REDmags... greed.

OCZ Vector and Samsung 840 PRO are some of the few ones that can do 500MB/s write among "consumer" SSD's and are less than 1 euro per GB. Sony's AXSM memory cards are more than 3.5$ per Go ! (CD's SSD's are around 2.5$/Go)

PLUS :

- Today's SSD's are not future proof because in a couple of years will emerge the SATA Express norm which will unleash solid state memory true potential by using SATA on a PCI Express lane (x4 lane I think). Think of a new type of connector too but backward compatible.

- Why not using 2 SSD's in RAID 0 ? OK, it's nice to have uninterrupted recording using 2 slots but why not giving the choice to use them to do RAID ?

- Couldn't a rather large high speed internal buffer be used to record on any type of SSD ? If I recall correctly, Digital Bolex use one to record on compact flash.


Well, enough said, let's wait for this late summer to see things more clearly after seeing some real life tests and comparisons.

Cheers,
Stephane.

PS : Freiheit, I can't wait to read your report on Sony's workshop ! :2vrolijk_08:
 
Hi all... I haven't posted much on DVXUser in a number of years, but I've been registered since DVX days and if you put "Jim Arthurs" in the search box you'll see I've been around. I live in Colorado Springs and do some freelance work for Convergent Design; things like building their NAB booth and product animations, etc. They are great folks, and very interested in producing professional products at the best possible price. I was at NAB this year "in uniform" for Monday and Thursday helping out, along with other freelancers and dealers.

During the show I personally took dozens of requests for the use of third party media and did my best to try and explain some of the reasoning behind this. I think it's very understandable that people want to have choice... Dan has mentioned a great number of reasons that the SSD selection is limited to a single product, but I'd like to add a few points from my perspective.

First, I've literally seen inside one of the Enterprise grade SSD drives that CD is using... and it's NOT the same as the consumer versions mentioned in the quote and in other threads. The first thing you'll see different as a bank of capacitors designed to hold a charge if the media is suddenly without power, allowing the device to close files gracefully. CD has had MUCH experience in the high end market with their Gemini 4:4:4 product... and has seen every type of abuse and mis-use happen to high end media. I've seen a big box of "dead" SSD's that didn't make the grade, or wouldn't survive the various "torture-tests", twenty-thirty thousand worth easy... these are not returnable, not refundable... basically CD is doing the process of Q&A for you.... will they make a reasonable profit off their media? I certainly hope so, because it's a BIG DEAL to do what they do. CD is providing a closed loop system... so that you end up with a recording. Others may sell you a recorder, Convergent Design is guaranteeing you a RECORDING. Will Amazon take back an otherwise acceptable drive simply because it's not fast enough? Will they help you recover your data if the drive fails or has issues? Unlike other recording product, there is no menu item in the Gemini or Odyssey asking you how you want to handle a recording that just happened with dropped frames, because there will be no dropped frames.

Well, what about the low data rates? Sure, maybe you need top end media for 240fps RAW recording, or ARRIRAW, or C500 burning 265 MB/sec at 24fps, but why do you need that for DNxHD or "The Codec That Shall Not Be Named"? Even at the low 30MB/sec data rate range of these compressed codecs, the drives can literally just fall asleep in the middle of a recording to do drive housekeeping! You see, what Convergent Design does is use ONE MEDIA and completely understand and control it... they know how to write to it, control it, even erase it in ways the keep the media from slowly degrading over time. It's a closed loop with one media that is completely understood in terms of its characteristics.

Convergent Design cares about your recordings. They've seen what happens (via the nanoFlash) when people have the "illusion of choice" and go buy some CF card from Walmart and complain when it doesn't do 220Mb/sec i-frame recording... and their experience designing the Gemini pointed to a different way... a professional way where your recordings are considered important and perhaps once in a lifetime... so lesson learned, the Odyssey family will follow that model. This Enterprise Class media is good... and more importantly,their engineers know how to drive it for best performance.

I understand that desire to tinker, and experiment, and get a little rush when you find some great deal on a stick of media... but you KNOW someone (maybe you, maybe me) will try and record ARRIRAW or FS700 4K onto some little feeble off-brand SSD and then immediately call CD to complain... this scenerio completely prevents that from happening.

Both Odysseys are amazing OLED monitors at good prices for monitors with their feature sets. Buy a SSD and you can record DNxHD and eventually "The Codec That Shall Not be Named"... you're still at a good price very in-line with the other recorders (and you've got OLED!) Want to record FS700 high speed 2K or 4K now and then, but not everyday? Rent the codec for a low day rate... if you use it enough, buy the codec outright... it's all about the options.... it doesn't have to be more than a monitor priced appropriately, but it's a system designed to give you "stepping stones" all the way up to ARRIRAW with one piece of hardware. That is completely and absolutely unique.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs

S.Blanchardon said:
BTW, it's the exact same "issue" with REDmags... greed.

OCZ Vector and Samsung 840 PRO are some of the few ones that can do 500MB/s write among "consumer" SSD's and are less than 1 euro per GB. Sony's AXSM memory cards are more than 3.5$ per Go ! (CD's SSD's are around 2.5$/Go)
:2vrolijk_08:
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Jim there are a lot of illusions here:):) But "choice" or at least the illusion of it is what modern popular culture is all about. And with modern pop culture I mean: current dominant ideology. I won't go into details here but this is on what contemporary culture is build upon. It began as an mutiny somewhere in the early 70is I think with big shopping mals that granted "choice". But later on "choice" got skewed by corporations and turned back to popular culture for making profits. In essence masses are now manipulated with the same principle that they once held for purposes of mutiny to dominant ideology back in the 70is. Torn jeans are a good example (John Fiske uses it in "Jeaning of America") once they were a simbol of mutiny today they are sold as a part of popular culture.

So, getting back to the topic of SSDs: if you withhold "choice" from the consumers you will get resistance. This is "Media studies" 101. We need choice or the illusion of it, we are accustomed to it, we were born in to it. Liberal democracy implanted this into us - the illusion of choice that is. So this is a problem for CD. If the SSDs are that good and they really aren't making much profit back on it (which I don't really believe but Okey...) than this should be marketed more and it should be made as an integral part of Odisseys external P.R. (for lack of a better word) image.

But anyway saying that with CF and Gemini people were complaining that their recorders weren't recording to their cards and that because of this CD decided to make proprietary media and lock the recorder for all other media is simply put BS. This really only points to profit making and nothing else. The argument doesn't hold if put to scrutiny. And the second really big minus to CDs image is that you need to insert their SSD to unlock recording. But anyhow if their SDDs is the only thing you can record on this is actually a mute point.

I appreciate the security of really good propraitery media. Really I do, I've been shooting on P2 for the past 4 years. And have been defending it all the time. And this SSDs are A LOT cheaper than P2. But the fact of the matter is that SD and CF cards really don't have much problems. Most and by most I mean 99% get by just fine. So is the extra security really neccesary? Is the extra price warranted?
And I don't have a problem with CDs SSDs, I'm just disappointed I guess that's all.

2x900GB SSD plus RAW option + 7Q price adds up to what? 6-7k? That's a lot:):) But it's for productions that need it I guess, the only thing is that the FS700 is a low budget camera and this recorder is actually not. This is also a place where dichotomy is happening. Couple this with the lack op "choice" it's just asking for trouble.

And to end this post I'll just say that I rather pay a bit more for better, bullet proof media so I don't get burned. But proprietary media binds me to a certain manufacturer and I got burned with P2 as Panasonic just refuses to make an s35 camera that uses P2.
 
i really like your posts jim and kinoks, i think the big thing here is that the "poor indie filmmakers" were given a nice camera with a great amount of features for a really reasonable price, and such a filmmaker expects a recorder which somehow matches the price of the camera, maybe in the 1000 to 2000 bucks range. And they get a lot of recorders that give them better quality in this price range, but they simply wont get 4K and 2K RAW/uncompressed up to 240fps for 9000$(including the camera of course)!

What CD offers is a really unique product IMO, which offers way more features than any ER before. If you don't have the budget for their monitor/recorder + media + accessories, move on.

Sony/RED/Panasonic and others went the proprietary media route from the beginning. So why should we blame a company, which tries to give us as filmmakers more options for our camera, because of their higher priced SSD's which are still cheaper than the RED/Sony SSD'S/Cards? a REDMAG is 3,900 bucks for 512GB, a SONY 512GB card for their AXS-R5 recorder is 1,800 bucks and a 480GB CD SSD is 1195 bucks.

Of course the recording options given are not the cheapest, but the price is lower than a RED Epic, lower than a C500 and lower than a F5 and F55 if you look at a whole package so why should we complain about that?

At the moment, i really don't know which product to buy, Odyssey 7/7Q, the samurai blade or a simple hyperdeck shuttle - so many options, i guess i'll wait and decide when the firmware and hardware update becomes available!
 
KINOKS said:
Jim there are a lot of illusions here:):) But "choice" or at least the illusion of it is what modern popular culture is all about. And with modern pop culture I mean: current dominant ideology. I won't go into details here but this is on what contemporary culture is build upon. It began as an mutiny somewhere in the early 70is I think with big shopping mals that granted "choice". But later on "choice" got skewed by corporations and turned back to popular culture for making profits. In essence masses are now manipulated with the same principle that they once held for purposes of mutiny to dominant ideology back in the 70is. Torn jeans are a good example (John Fiske uses it in "Jeaning of America") once they were a simbol of mutiny today they are sold as a part of popular culture.

So, getting back to the topic of SSDs: if you withhold "choice" from the consumers you will get resistance. This is "Media studies" 101. We need choice or the illusion of it, we are accustomed to it, we were born in to it. Liberal democracy implanted this into us - the illusion of choice that is. So this is a problem for CD. If the SSDs are that good and they really aren't making much profit back on it (which I don't really believe but Okey...) than this should be marketed more and it should be made as an integral part of Odisseys external P.R. (for lack of a better word) image.

But anyway saying that with CF and Gemini people were complaining that their recorders weren't recording to their cards and that because of this CD decided to make proprietary media and lock the recorder for all other media is simply put BS. This really only points to profit making and nothing else. The argument doesn't hold if put to scrutiny. And the second really big minus to CDs image is that you need to insert their SSD to unlock recording. But anyhow if their SDDs is the only thing you can record on this is actually a mute point.

I appreciate the security of really good propraitery media. Really I do, I've been shooting on P2 for the past 4 years. And have been defending it all the time. And this SSDs are A LOT cheaper than P2. But the fact of the matter is that SD and CF cards really don't have much problems. Most and by most I mean 99% get by just fine. So is the extra security really neccesary? Is the extra price warranted?
And I don't have a problem with CDs SSDs, I'm just disappointed I guess that's all.

2x900GB SSD plus RAW option + 7Q price adds up to what? 6-7k? That's a lot:):) But it's for productions that need it I guess, the only thing is that the FS700 is a low budget camera and this recorder is actually not. This is also a place where dichotomy is happening. Couple this with the lack op "choice" it's just asking for trouble.

And to end this post I'll just say that I rather pay a bit more for better, bullet proof media so I don't get burned. But proprietary media binds me to a certain manufacturer and I got burned with P2 as Panasonic just refuses to make an s35 camera that uses P2.
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You say 99% of the time it is fines itch most media...it's the 1% I am concerned about.
 
I am curious to see if the people who paid $8000 for an FS700 are really going to fork over an additional $6000-$7000 for a 4k recording solution. It seems obvious that the industry is going to be putting a big push on getting out 4K products over the next couple of years, especially at the consumer levels, and this going to drop prices dramatically. We already have a 4K option with the new Black Magic and I am sure many would agree that this is only the tip of the iceberg moving forward. I also question how many FS700 owners who use this Camera as their primary shooter are REALLY going to need to shoot 4K. Anyone who would REALLY need 4K wouldn't have purchased an FS700 with the hopes that Sony would deliver by an unspecified date and with an unspecified cost and solution for 4K.

I believe a good number of people hoped their would be a cost effective solution but between the Odyssey and the Sony solutions it doesn't look like we are going to see an reasonably affordable way to get 4K out of the FS7000. I have to believe that the number of people who are going to lose work for not having a 4K shooter is going to be a pretty small group of people. The number of people who will be able to turn a profit from the 7k Odyssey investment off of strictly shoots requiring 4K or 2K raw will be even smaller still. The dream was fun while it lasted...lol, interesting times nonetheless. It would seem that for now Blackmagic rules the roost for 4K....if they can produce...but I digress (lol)

Still, it would have been cool to have a $2000-$4000, 4K solution to play with, anything above and beyond just can't be justified by many people I would think.
 
stefanhuberfilms said:
Sony/RED/Panasonic and others went the proprietary media route from the beginning. So why should we blame a company, which tries to give us as filmmakers more options for our camera, because of their higher priced SSD's which are still cheaper than the RED/Sony SSD'S/Cards? a REDMAG is 3,900 bucks for 512GB, a SONY 512GB card for their AXS-R5 recorder is 1,800 bucks and a 480GB CD SSD is 1195 bucks.
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Yes I agree, let's stop nagging Dan:):) But just to add another WHY to the list: because (I think) this is the first external recorder that uses proprietary media (if you exclude Sony's and Panasonic's recorders off-course). External recorders are mostly a budget option and the nice thing about them is that they use non-proprietary media. This is a big plus for recorders and it's one of the biggest reason why we love them. This recorder from CD negates this already anchored in our brains paradigm. And is as such a risky move, that has I think already proven as such:):):)
 
Seems to me, just to add my .02 to the discussion, C-D can offer their proprietary SSD's, just as they plan to do, and honor their performance warrantee, just as they plan to do. In the end, the user is free to use whatever SSD they choose. And my opinion (this is the .02 part) C-D doesn't have to honor ANY of their performance warrantees. So, if a consumer wants to buy a license on a non-propietary SSD of his choice, they should be free to do so at their own risk. For years, Avid provided product support only for approved workstations. That didn't stop a ton of people from successfully using machines of their own build. Avid just wouldn't provide product support for these machines.
 
I don't think it's likely that a "cheap" recorder will ever spring up for the FS-700... not cheap in the way people are hoping for. The number of cameras in the field is extremely limited compared to any DSLR or consumer camera, and wouldn't support such a product development from scratch at this point. The Sony 4K/high speed recording solution ($$$$) and the Odyssey7Q ($$) will most likely be the only two options EVER... remember, this is a camera that is already a year old in its life cycle at this point.

Having said that, I think it's really the rental/leasing aspect of the FS-700 codec for the Odyssey7Q that changes the price dynamic and gives people the "cheap" recorder they want. From my perspective, adding 4K recording to your FS-700 is a way to mine new revenue from a (hopefully) paid for asset at this point, but not something you necessarily need on a daily or weekly basis. You're basically turning your FS-700 into a Sony F5 on an as-needed basis and can up-charge on your work/day rate for those "special" jobs.

Jointly, I can see a nice market for your local rental house in offering CD SSD's on a daily basis as well... Everyone remembers the P2 rentals that sprung up after the HVX200 showed up? Anyone remember what those initial 8gig P2 cards cost? Anyone? :) With soon to be thousands and thousands of Odyssey7Q monitors in the field, all of them only a daily codec rental away from recording whatever format you might need, it would sure make sense for enterprising individuals and rental houses to offer local customers daily/weekly rentals of the SSD's.

Regards,

Jim Arthurs
 
Dan, has CD ever considered a 4K recorder design WITHOUT the monitor? Your large monitor doesn't fit into every rig setup I use. The savings on a no-monitor option would offset the cost of your SSD's.
 
Kraut69 said:
Dan, has CD ever considered a 4K recorder design WITHOUT the monitor? Your large monitor doesn't fit into every rig setup I use. The savings on a no-monitor option would offset the cost of your SSD's.
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Kraut, I completely agree with you. The large monitor for me is a big turn off. Why? Because I already have a Small HD DP6 and many times I shoot without a monitor, just using the LCD, especially for field work to make the camera work faster and lighter.

A TINY recorder that 1) has SDI cable out to a monitor 2) Start Trigger 3) Does playback 4) A bit cheaper; and I would buy it in a heart beat.
 
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