brotherian
Member
An EVF with built-in recorder I would buy in a heart murmur.
Though that's probably an impossible pipe dream of mine.
The SONY FS-700 & The Odyssey7 - Let´s hope to see some affordable HQ-Output!
- Thread starter mediaplexx
- Start date
An EVF with built-in recorder I would buy in a heart murmur.
Though that's probably an impossible pipe dream of mine.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Kraut and Gene,
We are listening to your requests.
Our nanoFlash did not have a built-in monitor, and people asked for us to add a monitor.
Our Gemini 4:4:4 included a monitor and people asked for it to be larger, around 7" to 8" diagonal.
Our Odyssey7Q has lots of inputs and outputs and this takes space. Six HD-SDI 3G BNC's, 1 Timecode BNC, 1 HDMI Input, 1 HDMI Output, One analog input, and one analog output, power input, power switch, two function switches, and remote control connector.
If we design and built another unit without the monitor, then we will have to figure out where to put all of the connectors, which of course we could do using various techniques. One is to make the device thicker, like another product on the market.
The biggest hurdle for us is to determine if enough people would want our recorder without a monitor.
Please understand that recording 4K at high frame rates is over 400 Megabytes per second.
Thus, while there is the 4K camera from Blackmagic Design, and it has only one SSD slot, it is recording in 4K using ProRes, thus compressed. With only one SSD, recording true 4K Raw (uncompressed raw) at over 30 frames per second takes another approach.
If we want to preserve the versatility of the Odyssey7Q, then we need space for two SSD's.
Of course, we plan on adding another very popular codec to the Odyssey7Q so that we can record compressed 4K, but recording 4K Raw from various cameras, at high frame rates requires over 400 Megabytes per second.
We could design a unit with only one slot for the SSD, and a smaller monitor (or without a built-in monitor), but there would be less versatility.
Again, we are listening, I just wanted you to see some of the trade-offs. We still need some way to control the menu system.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Kraut69
Well-known member
Dan, I don't have any problem with any bulk that hangs off the back of the camera, two slots ok, etc., make it as big as needed, I just don't want to be locked in to having to use that monitor, and pay for it when I just want the recorder really, regardless of how nice the monitor is and how good the value is. I use a Dp4 which is plenty for me. Sony is expecting a big demand for a recorder only, I don't know why a recorder only would not be a good market for you, too.
timmytimetravel
Well-known member
I have an alphatron evf. I'm 90pc sure I'm getting a cd 7q. I like all the options and have a small HD dp7 high bright on preorder which I am willing to loose the deposit on (though ill miss the high bright bit).
what I want and what ill use most of the time are different. Give me a small recorder that can do 442 prores at 60fps for less than say $800-1000 bucks and ill buy both that and the 7q. It just seems to be a market gap. Filling it with a 7q or forgetting it and going with something priced under say $2500 I get that but loose HFR (100+) and 2.5k options .
id actually thought really hard if a samurai blade would do it. It won't. I have high hopes before I have to pay for my dp7 or 7q that Sony will release info that the fw/hw out is 10/12 bit and some manufacturer will step forward and tweak something on the market to give me compressed 60fps with some bit depth. I would probably still get 7q for Hfr and 2.5k and above but not use it until prices of the bits to make it work come down.
Am I missing a reasonably priced unit that will do 60fps prores good bit depth from the fs700? Which ones might do it after Sony hw/fw ?
what I want and what ill use most of the time are different. Give me a small recorder that can do 442 prores at 60fps for less than say $800-1000 bucks and ill buy both that and the 7q. It just seems to be a market gap. Filling it with a 7q or forgetting it and going with something priced under say $2500 I get that but loose HFR (100+) and 2.5k options .
id actually thought really hard if a samurai blade would do it. It won't. I have high hopes before I have to pay for my dp7 or 7q that Sony will release info that the fw/hw out is 10/12 bit and some manufacturer will step forward and tweak something on the market to give me compressed 60fps with some bit depth. I would probably still get 7q for Hfr and 2.5k and above but not use it until prices of the bits to make it work come down.
Am I missing a reasonably priced unit that will do 60fps prores good bit depth from the fs700? Which ones might do it after Sony hw/fw ?
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Tim,
Thank you for your post.
For $1,295 (US Price) + $595 for media (one 240 GB SSD), one can record using the Odyssey7 from the FS700 in HD (1920 x 1080 10-Bit) at 60 fps in Avid DNxHD.
Later, as soon as we have it coded, tested, and certified, we will have another very popular codec available for free.
This includes all of the professional monitor features of our Odyssey7Q model, except that it does not have Quad Split Monitoring, thus it can show (and record) from only one video stream at a time. Thus, you get False Color, Waveform Monitor, RGB Parade, Histogram, Color Vectorscope, Two Level Zebras, Timecode Display, and Audio Meters, etc., but it does not show a Waveform Monitor + Histogram + Color Vectorscope (or False Color) all at once that the Odyssey7Q can.
These are a lot of professional features for $1,295 (US price), but it is not $800 to $1,000.
Due to technical concerns, our Odyssey7Q is needed to handle the 2K Raw or 4K from the upgraded FS700.
(Details: the 2K Raw and 4K Raw signal streams are sent slightly compressed over the HD-SDI 3G Single Link upgraded FS700 output and we have to decompress this stream in order to use it. The Odyssey7Q has the extra power (and logic space) to perform this function.)
I do not know at this time, all of the different frame rates that the upgraded FS700 will output at 2K, nor do I know if all of the 2K modes will be only raw in all frame rates. We can handle up to 240 fps Raw from the updated FS700.
I do know that Avid DNxHD does not handle 2K, but ProRes does, and ProRes can handle a higher bit-depth.
Of course Cinema DNG can handle 2K and the higher bit-depths, and that will be the recording format that we will use.
We will be able to handle more options once we have the other very popular codec available.
Conclusion, the Odyssey7 can be a very useful solution, and available for a moderate cost, to record 1080p60 from the original FS700.
And the Odyssey7Q will be required for recording 2K Raw or 4K from the upgraded FS700.
I hope this helps.
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Stuart Mannion
Member
Love that popular codec!
Dan again thank you for your great communication.
Exciting options. What I understand is that once a fs700 has been upgraded by Sony you'll be able to record 10bit HD out of it without needing the 7Q's fs700 option? Or are you saying that the Odyssey7 will be able to do that even before the Sony upgrade?
Cheers
Dan again thank you for your great communication.
Exciting options. What I understand is that once a fs700 has been upgraded by Sony you'll be able to record 10bit HD out of it without needing the 7Q's fs700 option? Or are you saying that the Odyssey7 will be able to do that even before the Sony upgrade?
Cheers
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Stuart,
Thank you for your kind words.
Without upgrading the FS700, you can record up to 1080p60 using the Odyssey7 ($1,295 US Price), without any extra cost recording options, but, of course, you will need at least one SSD, and the 240 GB SSD will suffice ($595 US Price) in Avid DNxHD initially with the other codec coming later.
If you upgrade the FS700, you will probably want to consider the Odyssey7Q ($2,295 US Price) so that you can record using the features that the upgrade provides.
If you upgrade the FS700, but want to shoot in HD (1920 x 1080) up to 60 fps, you have your choice of the Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q.
Of course, 1080p50 will also be supported, as will 1080p59.94.
720p50 and 720p60 will also be supported, but I just do not know if we will have this ready by the time we start shipping in August 2013, as 1080p is much more popular.
My personal thoughts, is that for a long time we had a dilemma, in that if we had a 1080p24 project, but we wanted to shoot some slow-mo with existing cameras, one had to switch to 720p. Of course the FS700 has some wonderful slow motion modes.
But, now that we will have a very low cost 1080p50, 59.94 and 1080p60 recorder, more footage can be shot at these higher frame rates, without any realistic time constraints.
And then, with the upgraded FS700 with the Odyssey7Q, one can shoot in 2K Raw, at 240 fps (continuously, without using a windowed sensor, thus no moire), which is just outstanding for some projects. (Continuously = Until you fill up the SSD's).
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Mike Schell
Active member
Just to clarify pricing, the Odyssey7Q lists for $2295, add two 240GB SSDs ($595 each) and you have a basic recorder for $3485 which supports compressed video up to 1080p60. You then have the option to buy the FS700 2K/4K recording option for $1495 (so a total cost of $4980) or just rent FS700 support for $75/day. So for a $3500 outlay, you get a great 7.7" OLED monitor (which alone costs $2500 from other manufacturers) + 480GB of storage + the option to upgrade to FS700 2K@240fps, ARRIRAW, Canon C500 4K RAW, uncompressed or even quad stream recording. (All recording options can be either purchased or rented).
We do all this in a 1.2 lb package, which consumes only 8-15W and uses Enterprise class SSDs with MTBF of 2 million hours and includes built-in power loss protection to avoid corrupt files/cards on power failure.
Does any other monitor/recorder come close to offering these capabilities in this price range?
Mike Schell
Convergent Design
Simon Shasha
Well-known member
Hi Dan,
First let me say that your clear, detailed, and honest communiation with your customers is really great
I am, however, a little confused by this:
Is this true 10bit off the FS700's sensor? Or is it just 8bit in a 10bit wrapper? If it is true 10bit, will it be possible to record 10bit DNxHD while also using the up and coming S-Log2 profile for the FS700?
First let me say that your clear, detailed, and honest communiation with your customers is really great
I am, however, a little confused by this:
Is this true 10bit off the FS700's sensor? Or is it just 8bit in a 10bit wrapper? If it is true 10bit, will it be possible to record 10bit DNxHD while also using the up and coming S-Log2 profile for the FS700?
Mike you have a good point. For someone like me who doesn't shoot for to make money but more as a hobby. I get a Monitor and 2K 240FPS continuously ( big +). As for 4K it is there if I want shoot in it but I dont think I am ready for it yet because of the work load. Yes you have Black magic and the Mark III now can do 4k/RAW etc just under $3000. Let's not forget that the FS700 is great camera (image and diverse) that is why we all bought it from the beginning. I feel that the hype of 4K and RAW is making the Owner of the FS700 putting down they own camera. When I first bought the FS700 there was nothing out there on the market for that price. I think for a total of $4980 for the Odyssey7Q to do all the above. I think we should all start saving and looks forward to these excitement about the upgrade. Not everyone will be able to afford....but then again if you get stunning image from 2K in slow motion or 4k then I am sold with the upgrade. Just my 2c since keeping an eyes on this topic since it started.
stefanvanjaarsveld
Active member
Hi Dan,
First let me say that your clear, detailed, and honest communiation with your customers is really great
I am, however, a little confused by this:
Is this true 10bit off the FS700's sensor? Or is it just 8bit in a 10bit wrapper? If it is true 10bit, will it be possible to record 10bit DNxHD while also using the up and coming S-Log2 profile for the FS700?
I would also like this to be clarified if possible.
- Before the FS700 update I assume it would be 8bit in a 10bit wrapper?
- After the FS700 update I assume it would be true 10bit?
Stuart Mannion
Member
Exactly what I want to know!
S.Blanchardon
Well-known member
What´s the bit depth in 2K RAW and 4K uncompressed please ?
Thank you.
Thank you.
Mike Schell
Active member
S.Blanchardon
Well-known member
Is it kind of... confidential ?
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Friends,
We expect Sony to make the Bit-Depth announcements for their upcoming FS700 Hardware/firmware upgrade.
Out of courtesy to Sony, we are not making these announcements.
I feel that it would be inappropriate for us to issue a spoiler in advance.
For the current FS700 (not upgraded):
We have the technical capability to prove whether it is 8-Bit in a 10-Bit HD-SDI stream, or 10-bit in a 10-Bit stream.
We may do this test as soon as we can find the time in our lab.
We just released new firmware for our Gemini 4:4:4, thus our testing team has been very busy ensuring this is as perfect as we can make it.
Respectfully,
Respectfully,
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
Hi Dan,
Thanks for being so active on the forum and answering so many questions. I'm personally the most interested in whether the FS700 hardware upgrade gives us 10 bit 4:2:2 out with S-Log, I understand you can't talk about that yet but can you confirm that the CD Odyssey 7 (and not the 7Q) can record 1080/60p 4:2:2 10 bit through SDI without any kind of upgrade? If so it should mean that we will be able to record our FS700 buffer when it runs 240p and outputs a 60p stream, giving us DNxHD 10 bit (or 8 bit- hopefully not!) S-LOG at 240fps if only for a few seconds. That's a big deal to me and would be a great selling point to the camera/recorder combo. As much as raw and 4k are important, if it can do 60p and we get that 10 bit out then the lower priced Odyssey with 60p recording functionality might be the bigger seller for us FS700 owners.
Thanks in advance,
Toby Lockerbie
Thanks for being so active on the forum and answering so many questions. I'm personally the most interested in whether the FS700 hardware upgrade gives us 10 bit 4:2:2 out with S-Log, I understand you can't talk about that yet but can you confirm that the CD Odyssey 7 (and not the 7Q) can record 1080/60p 4:2:2 10 bit through SDI without any kind of upgrade? If so it should mean that we will be able to record our FS700 buffer when it runs 240p and outputs a 60p stream, giving us DNxHD 10 bit (or 8 bit- hopefully not!) S-LOG at 240fps if only for a few seconds. That's a big deal to me and would be a great selling point to the camera/recorder combo. As much as raw and 4k are important, if it can do 60p and we get that 10 bit out then the lower priced Odyssey with 60p recording functionality might be the bigger seller for us FS700 owners.
Thanks in advance,
Toby Lockerbie
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Confirmed:
The CD Odyssey7 (and the Odyssey7Q) without extra cost options, can record up to 1080p60 4:2:2 10-bit through SDI.
If S-Log is present, we can handle S-Log properly, record the native S-Log or S-Log II, while displaying the images in S-Log, S-Log II or Rec 709.
The Odyssey7Q, will later support the use of a custom LUT.
Please note, all HD-SDI is normally 10-Bit, and this can be 12-Bits or more compressed into 10-Bit, such as S-Log or other Log footage, or 8-Bits in a 10-Bit word.
HD-SDI can also be 12-Bit, but it is never 8-Bits in an 8-Bit word.
Our lab has not yet determined if the FS700 original model and/or FS700 upgraded model outputs 8-bit in a 10-Bit word, or 10-Bits. And we do not have an original FS700 in our lab, so we can't actually make this call.
cuervo
Veteran
FWIW....
The data screen on my Sound Devices Pix240 says I'm getting 8-bit from the SDI port on my FS700. While I'm capable of recording 10-bit with this recorder, the feed from the camera is only 8-bit. If it was 8-bit in a 10 bit word, I suspect my screen readout would say 10-bit.
The data screen on my Sound Devices Pix240 says I'm getting 8-bit from the SDI port on my FS700. While I'm capable of recording 10-bit with this recorder, the feed from the camera is only 8-bit. If it was 8-bit in a 10 bit word, I suspect my screen readout would say 10-bit.