Muttondraw
Well-known member
Nick_Shaw said:
Yup sorry. I'm being thick here. Couldn't see the wood for the trees.
M
Specs changes...
- Thread starter Jannard
- Start date
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Yup sorry. I'm being thick here. Couldn't see the wood for the trees.
M
BRING BACK SCALED 2K RAW !!!
Hello Red Team,
I'd like to lobby for the return of scaled ( acad 35mm format ) 2k raw.
My typical shoots today are 35mm commecials and the occasional music video, today we shoot film and deliver NTSC and occasionaly HD. I think there will be many more jobs that finish in HD in the next few years.
While RAW 4k is an excellent choice for an HD finish, the inability to shoot faster than 30fps is a major deficit and the 27mbs data rate creates some handling and archiving issues, and how fast will the render times be in REDCINE ?
It would seem that scaled 2k Raw would be the ideal format to shoot for any project that finished in HD. 60fps, Nice Small data rate, lots of runtime on the magazines.
1080P RGB is of course a viable option, but I think that the post processing options in REDCINE will be very valuable tools, and they will be somewhat hampered by using RGB formats as opposed to RAW. ?
The windowed option does not appeal to me at all, I own and use 35mm lenses exclusively, and bigger sensors ( or bigger parts or the sensor ) in my experience equals better images, less noise, better ability to use depth of field in creative ways.
Is this a feature that Red cannot implement or chooses not to ?
Thanks for your time and trouble. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on RED #513.
Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
Hello Red Team,
I'd like to lobby for the return of scaled ( acad 35mm format ) 2k raw.
My typical shoots today are 35mm commecials and the occasional music video, today we shoot film and deliver NTSC and occasionaly HD. I think there will be many more jobs that finish in HD in the next few years.
While RAW 4k is an excellent choice for an HD finish, the inability to shoot faster than 30fps is a major deficit and the 27mbs data rate creates some handling and archiving issues, and how fast will the render times be in REDCINE ?
It would seem that scaled 2k Raw would be the ideal format to shoot for any project that finished in HD. 60fps, Nice Small data rate, lots of runtime on the magazines.
1080P RGB is of course a viable option, but I think that the post processing options in REDCINE will be very valuable tools, and they will be somewhat hampered by using RGB formats as opposed to RAW. ?
The windowed option does not appeal to me at all, I own and use 35mm lenses exclusively, and bigger sensors ( or bigger parts or the sensor ) in my experience equals better images, less noise, better ability to use depth of field in creative ways.
Is this a feature that Red cannot implement or chooses not to ?
Thanks for your time and trouble. I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on RED #513.
Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
im.thatoneguy
Well-known member
I don't know that 60fps onboard 2k RGB was ever an option was it?
There is no such thing as scaled RAW, and there is only a 33% increase in file size to 4k RAW from 2k RGB which means at most you'll see 40 FPS at 2k RGB.
There is no such thing as scaled RAW, and there is only a 33% increase in file size to 4k RAW from 2k RGB which means at most you'll see 40 FPS at 2k RGB.
filmmaker1977
Carbonite Member
thus, mr newman concern isn't a serious one any more.. i mean for us future red users..
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
I'm sorry but please enlight my lack of understanding. If you can always go to any format you want from REDCINE, why shoot 2K scaled? Especially when we'll have a 320GB Mini-RAID as RED-DRIVE for under $1,000. It means 200 minutes @24 fps into the 4K (DCI specs) realm, right?mattuhry said:
(So such concern doesn't make any sense!)
Hmmm, well I can't say I'm happy about the changes, If I'm honest. Yeah, I'll get flamed for it probably, but I gotta say it.
Initially, I was under the impression that RED was going to use the S35 portion of the sensor, so that the efficacy of S35 lens characteristics and all the other S35 jazz would be in play (as of yet, I don't intend filming through the optical port.) Ok, so my naivete was put in check, and I learned we have access to 35mm. I was cool with that... I'd use S35 lenses anyway, shoot 4K redcode RAW and when I needed to shoot 60fps (intercut with 4K for film out) I would use 2K scaled for a minimal differential. Then that option changed to 2K RGB 4:4:4 at 60fps. That would still be cool on the big screen, I surmised. Then, that changed again to 1080p 4:2:2. Now, I'm supposed to intercut 1080p 4:2:2 (60fps) with 4K, and make it look seemless on the big screen ? I don't think that is going to work. Time for plan B. Renting a deck possibly...
And I don't particularly like having to rely on REDcine (since I won't be shooting 1080p 4:2:2 RGB). Indeed, I'm sure it won't cause a hiccup, but I like the option of shooting and editing 2K RGB without REDcine -> Not a complaint so much, as an option that I'd like to have gone bye bye baby.
Aaight, so forget the naivete, but with all these changes I want to be 100% positive, and for my own edification :
1. 1080p RGB is 4:2:2 and windowed from 4K - not scaled ?
2. 4K RAW redcode is 4:4:4 ?
3. Are their any scaling options left, or is it all windowed ?
4. I assume (per Gibbys caveat) that all S35 lenses will be easy to use with RED, but some of their char. will be in the 35mm terrain ?
Needless to say that RED is still a fantastic opportunity to get in the same ballpark as cameras 10 times the cost, and I'm still excited. The changes Jim has made seem logical to me, and aren't a huge inconvinience, but I've always been honest here, so I'm not goiing to stop now. Maybe I should before I'm :banned: ... :beer: :laugh:
so you say you want a revolution
Initially, I was under the impression that RED was going to use the S35 portion of the sensor, so that the efficacy of S35 lens characteristics and all the other S35 jazz would be in play (as of yet, I don't intend filming through the optical port.) Ok, so my naivete was put in check, and I learned we have access to 35mm. I was cool with that... I'd use S35 lenses anyway, shoot 4K redcode RAW and when I needed to shoot 60fps (intercut with 4K for film out) I would use 2K scaled for a minimal differential. Then that option changed to 2K RGB 4:4:4 at 60fps. That would still be cool on the big screen, I surmised. Then, that changed again to 1080p 4:2:2. Now, I'm supposed to intercut 1080p 4:2:2 (60fps) with 4K, and make it look seemless on the big screen ? I don't think that is going to work. Time for plan B. Renting a deck possibly...
And I don't particularly like having to rely on REDcine (since I won't be shooting 1080p 4:2:2 RGB). Indeed, I'm sure it won't cause a hiccup, but I like the option of shooting and editing 2K RGB without REDcine -> Not a complaint so much, as an option that I'd like to have gone bye bye baby.
Aaight, so forget the naivete, but with all these changes I want to be 100% positive, and for my own edification :
1. 1080p RGB is 4:2:2 and windowed from 4K - not scaled ?
2. 4K RAW redcode is 4:4:4 ?
3. Are their any scaling options left, or is it all windowed ?
4. I assume (per Gibbys caveat) that all S35 lenses will be easy to use with RED, but some of their char. will be in the 35mm terrain ?
Needless to say that RED is still a fantastic opportunity to get in the same ballpark as cameras 10 times the cost, and I'm still excited. The changes Jim has made seem logical to me, and aren't a huge inconvinience, but I've always been honest here, so I'm not goiing to stop now. Maybe I should before I'm :banned: ... :beer: :laugh:
so you say you want a revolution
Brook Willard
Well-known member
The chart is making me think that you can do scaled from 35mm or S16mm. I suspect that B4 is windowed.D_and_G said:
The unprocessed RAW data is just that... unprocessed RAW data. When it is debayered in REDCINE, it is 4:4:4. There is no chroma-subsampling coming out of the camera in RAW shooting modes... because to my knowledge it simply isn't possible with a bayer pattern sensor. Get it into REDCINE, however, and you get 4:4:4 4K out the other end. You could probably get 4:2:2 4K if you wanted as well... but I'm just guessing.
All scaling happens in REDCINE, to my knowledge.
I'm not actually sure what you're asking here.
Brook Willard said:
I know you can output various formats and aspect ratios, but I haven't heard them confirm 4K scaling (not windowing) to any image format. Maybe I missed it
Just my roundabout way of asking if they could possibly include S35 (2.39 aspect ratio) recording up to 60fps, since they're simplifying recording options. I'd like to use the full potential of S35 lenses. Maybe the simplification doesn't mean there's room for add ons , though. :beer:
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filmmaker1977
Carbonite Member
three, four and so on..
filmmaker1977
Carbonite Member
just perfect there.. your point rocks.. the only one with guts saying what all the others are thinking but not posting.. well, not all.. because jim you are an institution and beloved by all.. including all the gang over here.. but facts are facts..D_and_G said:Hmmm, well I can't say I'm happy about the changes, If I'm honest. Yeah, I'll get flamed for it probably, but I gotta say it.
Initially, I was under the impression that RED was going to use the S35 portion of the sensor, so that the efficacy of S35 lens characteristics and all the other S35 jazz would be in play (as of yet, I don't intend filming through the optical port.) Ok, so my naivete was put in check, and I learned we have access to 35mm. I was cool with that... I'd use S35 lenses anyway, shoot 4K redcode RAW and when I needed to shoot 60fps (intercut with 4K for film out) I would use 2K scaled for a minimal differential. Then that option changed to 2K RGB 4:4:4 at 60fps. That would still be cool on the big screen, I surmised. Then, that changed again to 1080p 4:2:2. Now, I'm supposed to intercut 1080p 4:2:2 (60fps) with 4K, and make it look seemless on the big screen ? I don't think that is going to work. Time for plan B. Renting a deck possibly...
And I don't particularly like having to rely on REDcine (since I won't be shooting 1080p 4:2:2 RGB). Indeed, I'm sure it won't cause a hiccup, but I like the option of shooting and editing 2K RGB without REDcine -> Not a complaint so much, as an option that I'd like to have gone bye bye baby.
Aaight, so forget the naivete, but with all these changes I want to be 100% positive, and for my own edification :
1. 1080p RGB is 4:2:2 and windowed from 4K - not scaled ?
2. 4K RAW redcode is 4:4:4 ?
3. Are their any scaling options left, or is it all windowed ?
4. I assume (per Gibbys caveat) that all S35 lenses will be easy to use with RED, but some of their char. will be in the 35mm terrain ?
Needless to say that RED is still a fantastic opportunity to get in the same ballpark as cameras 10 times the cost, and I'm still excited. The changes Jim has made seem logical to me, and aren't a huge inconvinience, but I've always been honest here, so I'm not goiing to stop now. Maybe I should before I'm :banned: ... :beer: :laugh:
so you say you want a revolution
and you.. better than any one here.. you well know that.. :beer:Emanuel said:
Glad I'm not the only one :beer:
You mean this Jarred post ?
Maybe, I'm a wee bit drunk, but, if I shoot 4K redcode RAW then I can take it into Redcine and "scale" it to 1080p 4:4:4 RGB, and not "window" it ?
Scaled in REDcine from 4K RAW, it would have the same FOV and DOF with the advantage for s/n and dynamic range (being a 3:1 oversampled image).
However, there would be no 60fps, either in 2K or 1080p (with 4K FOV and DOF).
I guess, I'm asking if to get any resolution/format as Jarred mentions, does REDcine scale or crop the footage ?
BTW, not too belabour a point, but I'm wondering how sports event shooters are going to get the slomo footage they want. As a narrative guy, I don't use that too much, but will still have to budget for getting it = expensive.
:beer:
*Still love RED, lads.
so you say you want a revolution
Nick_Shaw
Well-known member
As I understand the format table, when it says 1080p RGB from 35mm lens at 60fps, that is 4:4:4 and is scaled not windowed. RGB is always 4:4:4, since 4:2:2 is a YUV format. From what Graeme has said, Red does not use 4:2:2 at all, except possibly via HD-SDI output.
Nick
Nick
Gibby
Red Savant
D_and_G said:
I produce, direct, and shoot a ton of non-hardlined network sports event programs, and also some hardlined network sports event programs. For sports programs to be created in post, we'll usually shoot the programs in 2k REDCODE RAW. We'll shoot 2k@60fps for action sequences and smooth slo-mos, and 2k@24fps for lookback montages, interviews, inbumps, and outbumps. One other reason for us shooting those shows in 2K REDCODE RAW is that our sports stock footage licensing is an important revenue stream. 2k REDCODE RAW can be easily processed in REDCINE for output to whatever format, from 2k on down to 720p, that licensees desire. These shows don't require a lot of shallow DOF, but rather a mix of shallow, mid-range, and deep DOF. 2K is fine for that. Some shows will be shot in 1080p RGB or 1080p REDCODE, using 2/3" B4 HD ENG lenses, again at 60fps for action/slo-mos, and 24fps for all other portions of the show. They will generally be televised in 1080i or 720p, which will be mastered individually for delivery to networks.
Hardlined live sports event production is another situation. Jim has verified that live output of 1080i (and presumably 720p) via HD-SDI is still under consideration, something that will be critical for hardlined event broadcast.
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Nick_Shaw said:
Thanks Nick. I swear I read somewhere that 1080p was 4:2:2, but I may be mistaken. If it's 4K (RGB) scaled in camera to 1080p 4:4:4 up to 60fps, then that'd be cool for non-theatrical deliverables (and maybe even theatrical ones, depending on the acquistion format).
My questions about scaling come from the fact that I thought that scaling "RAW" wasn't an option - either in camera or in REDcine. Achieving resolution/formats in REDcine was achieved by cropping not scaling. Please correct me if I got this wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D_and_G
...I'm wondering how sports event shooters are going to get the slomo footage they want.
Again, thanks Gibby. I guess I was mainly thinking only about S35 lenses and characteristics for S35 FOV and DOF. Of course, using S16 lenses makes a lot of more sense for your applications. You'd know way better than I when 2K S16 would be applicable. Yet, I can see where a 2K RGB 60fps using S35mm might be incredible - in fact, I thinking of accompanying a friend (who covered the Molson Indie) with that in mind - Some S35 glass on surfing in Hawaii was another excuse I was going to use for a trip.
:beer:
so you say you want a revolution
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