Is having 35mm lens use that big of a deal at 2K RAW if you can shoot 4K RAW and then process down to 2K or whatever you want for the final product? Is it just a space issue on the drive? This is also a self-serving question....looks life investing in a super16 lens isn't such a bad idea either.
Specs changes...
- Thread starter Jannard
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MikeCurtis
Well-known member
Yeah - so did the camera lose 1080i outputs off the HD-SDI as well?
That has huge implications for broadcast work...
That has huge implications for broadcast work...
visceralpsyche
Well-known member
As I understand it the issue isn't the data rate of 4K REDCODE RAW footage but the rate at which the onboard CPU can do the compression of the RAW data itself.SF Geek said:
This is why offboard RAW streaming, which doesn't require any processing in situ, enables you to go to higher frame rates - the camera's CPU has been taken out of the loop and thus the sensor can simply pump its maximum framerate output directly to beefier hardware that CAN cope with the data rate, which is in that scenario less taxing on CPU and more taxing on the recording system bandwidth.
What I can see the logical progression to RED TWO being, is an updated CPU capable of unleashing the higher offboard framerates of the RED ONE, but ON CAMERA since the theoretical data rate of 4K REDCODE RAW @ 60fps would only be 2x that of 30fps, which is say 54MB/s, quite easy to a FLASH drive or RAID setup, but not so easy for the current CPU in the camera, due to thermal issues or simply a lack of processing power due to design constraints.
Given the modularity of RED ONE, I can imagine a CPU upgrade could easily be a drop in solution two years down the line and presto! A RED TWO (a "dual core" RED ONE if you like!!
) for the price of the CPU upgrade alone.Hope this helps give some clarity to a sometimes confusing aspect of the framerate/resolution discussion.
Gibby
Red Savant
On 7/17/06 I archived a copy of the RED Lens Format/Image Format page. In comparing the new chart with the last one, here are the changes I found:
1) “REDCODE” has replaced “SATA”, “SATA Drive”, and “SATA” on line three of the Image Format column for all Image Format categories
2) 2K Scaled and 2K Windowed have been removed from Image Formats, and replaced by 2k RAW
3) 1080i has been removed from recording image formats (Remember, 1080i can be created easily in REDCINE if needed)
4) “RED-RAID” has been replaced by “RAW Data Port” on 2540p, 4k, and 2k.
5) 2k RAW max fps now 120fps instead of listing 2k Scaled at 60 fps and 2k Windowed at 120fps
6) All 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 references removed from the chart
7) All REDCODE fps rates now listed as “Up to ___ fps” to identify REDCODE as variable frame rate in steps (steps not stated)
8) The word “No” is not included in squares where lens formats are larger than image formats
9) 1080p and 720p have “RGB” added to category to differentiate them from RAW recording
10) 1080p HD-SDI now has “24, 25, 30fps” instead of “30fps” on previous chart
11) 720p now has “50 or 60fps” under HD-SDI, rather than just “60fps” on previous chart
12) In 1080p RGB and 720P RGB, “REDCODE” (which replaces ”SATA”) now states “Up to 60fps” or “Up to 120fps” rather than “60fps 4:2:2”, emphasizing variable frame rates
13) "4k" category, which is now termed "4K RAW", has "Up to 30fps" in REDCODE column (which replaced "Sata Drive" column), and "Up to 60fps" in Raw Data Port column, which replaced RED-RAID column, all of which emphasizes variable frame rate capability in 4k.
1) “REDCODE” has replaced “SATA”, “SATA Drive”, and “SATA” on line three of the Image Format column for all Image Format categories
2) 2K Scaled and 2K Windowed have been removed from Image Formats, and replaced by 2k RAW
3) 1080i has been removed from recording image formats (Remember, 1080i can be created easily in REDCINE if needed)
4) “RED-RAID” has been replaced by “RAW Data Port” on 2540p, 4k, and 2k.
5) 2k RAW max fps now 120fps instead of listing 2k Scaled at 60 fps and 2k Windowed at 120fps
6) All 4:4:4 and 4:2:2 references removed from the chart
7) All REDCODE fps rates now listed as “Up to ___ fps” to identify REDCODE as variable frame rate in steps (steps not stated)
8) The word “No” is not included in squares where lens formats are larger than image formats
9) 1080p and 720p have “RGB” added to category to differentiate them from RAW recording
10) 1080p HD-SDI now has “24, 25, 30fps” instead of “30fps” on previous chart
11) 720p now has “50 or 60fps” under HD-SDI, rather than just “60fps” on previous chart
12) In 1080p RGB and 720P RGB, “REDCODE” (which replaces ”SATA”) now states “Up to 60fps” or “Up to 120fps” rather than “60fps 4:2:2”, emphasizing variable frame rates
13) "4k" category, which is now termed "4K RAW", has "Up to 30fps" in REDCODE column (which replaced "Sata Drive" column), and "Up to 60fps" in Raw Data Port column, which replaced RED-RAID column, all of which emphasizes variable frame rate capability in 4k.
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Gibby
Red Savant
Nick_Shaw said:
I'm assuming the same thing, although the word "assume" can be dissected into "ass", "u", and "me", in other words assuming can make an ass out of you and me.
35mm DOF and quality optics has been a key marketing point of RED One from the outset, so using 35mm glass for all image format options should be assured.
RED lenses are designed for use in S35mm lens formats on down in size.
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Nick_Shaw
Well-known member
Emanuel said:
I suspect the aparent repetition there exists because the HD formats may be derived slightly differently in each case by different cropping and scaling depending on the area of the sensor covered by each lens.
I would have thought that when the sensor is operated in 'windowed mode' (and don't forget that even 4k is 'windowed' from the full S35mm sensor) whether there is light falling on the unused area of the sensor or not would be an irrelevance.
Nick
Nick_Shaw
Well-known member
Jannard said:
I would vote "yes" if for no other reason than to be be able to monitor at 60Hz (albeit only fields not frames) on an HD broadcast monitor when shooting at 60fps. Incidentally, when shooting at non-standard frame rates, say windowed 120fps, what comes out of the HD-SDI and HDMI ports?
Nick
Muttondraw
Well-known member
I think that in this table "Lens format" is being used to indicate imaging area. This is why there is the subhead "frame size" under "Lens format". So you can use an S35 lens for any "Image format" but the full imaging area will be windowed not scaled. If you want to scale to 1080p then you can use an S35 lens but the imaging area that will be scaled will correspond to 35mm. That explains the blank squares.
Martin
Martin
Muttondraw
Well-known member
35mm:720p is listed as 60fps max, is that correct? Shouldn't it be 120fps?
Martin
Martin
Gibby
Red Savant
Some networks use 1080i for their HDTV broadcasts, and some use 720p. Realtime output of 1080i and 720p from the HD-SDI port on RED One could open up significant freelance market use for some RED One owners (the convergent ones who shoot cine-style and EFP style), and for in-house television network use.
Another potential revenue stream for owners...
Another potential revenue stream for owners...
Chris Kenny
Well-known member
Muttondraw said:
That would require that the camera be able to read the entire 4K imaging area off the sensor area at 120 fps, which I don't think we've ever heard it could do. If it could, you'd probably be able to shoot 120 fps 4K to the high-speed data port.
Basically, there seem to be a few separate constraints, presumably imposed by hardware performance, which result in the chart working out the way it does:
1) The camera can't read off a 4K area of the sensor at more than 60 fps.
2) The camera can't compress 4K RAW data on board at more than 30 fps or 2K RAW data at more than 60 fps.
3) The camera can't handle demosaicing and/or compression of RGB data at more than 60 fps at 1080p.
Though in this last case, it's possible the camera can technically handle it at 2K as well (since it was in the previous specs) but RED decided to leave it off for simplicity since 1080p and 2K are so close to each other.
johncordell
Member
It would be great if Redcine could convert Raw to Redcode. That way I could capture 4K Raw @ 60fps or 2K Raw @ 120fps onto Redflash. Then, on my computer, at non-realtime rates, I could convert the Raw footage into Redcode. Thus all my archived footage would be in Redcode but I'd get to have the higher frame rates that the onboard camera encoder can't handle. And avoid the need to capture the highest data rates onto a crazy fast RAID array.
Anyone know if high framerate onto Redflash plus raw to Redcode are part of the plan?
Anyone know if high framerate onto Redflash plus raw to Redcode are part of the plan?
Nick_Shaw
Well-known member
Gibby said:
In fact the format chart was updated once previously on 11/08/06 as referenced in this post from Stuart:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=759573#post759573
which was the first time (I believe) that 720p onboard recording at 120fps was mentioned.
Ironically, in that post Stuart is advocating the benefits of the 2k scaled REDCODE RGB format, which of course is now no more. I assume (that word again) the current thinking is that 1080p60 is sufficiently close to 2k@60fps that the latter format is redundant.
Nick
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