Sony PMW EX35... anybody got $17.5k lying around?

Barry_Green said:
These companies take turns leapfrogging each other. Panasonic is the innovator, Sony is the me-too, and Canon perfects last-generation technology. When everyone else had moved off of tape, Canon was making the best HDV cameras. When everyone else is moving to larger sensors, Canon has just now released the state of the art in 1/3" cameras, etc. When everyone else is moving to h.264, Canon just released their version of state-of-the-art MPEG-2.
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Precisely. IMHO, One should buy a cam only if money can be made out of it. Been doing the bleeding edge thing myself in the past and it burned me oh so badly. Not to mention, you wont get the Barry Green AF-100 book guide with this first batch ! :P
 
Michael Olsen said:
I got a bit confused here, so maybe someone can answer my questions:

1. Has Sony officially announced the development of a Full-Frame 35mm (i.e. 5d MkII size) video camera?

2. If so, have they also officially announced the development of a servo zoom for this camera?

3. And if so, have they given any official price and/or delivery information?

4. If not, then what are we talking about here?
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1. Yes (35mm motion picture size, not stills/5D size)

2. No

3. No

4. Who knows...


However the reasonably speculation is that Sony will be making an announcement on Monday (the 8th of November) of their "affordable camcorder" - It's been touted as EX35 for some time, but seems unlikey to be the actual name.

The zoom-lens rumour has turned up in a few places over the last few weeks, and if included in the speculated $17.5k price would probably represent excellent value. More recently the rumour of more than one camera has emerged - which is interesting.

And I've been led to believe there are some other headlining features that haven't been leaked - some things we've heard nothing of that will seriously change the way we evaluate this camera. It's hard to imagine what those things might do - but when I do I start to come up with crazy ideas like RAW or uncompressed recording, with simultaneous high-quality proxy (EX) recording, like the Alexa... But surely that's too big of a leap, and for too little money - so I come back to having no idea what is to come.

I'm just hoping that Yves and the boys and Crews.TV have as good a relationship with Sony as they do with Panasonic, then I can get close to it :)
 
I'd love it if Sony came out with an "affordable" video camera that blended a large sensor with great codec and all the features and tools that we've come to love on digital video cameras. However, this is Sony we're talking about and historically their cam systems are not affordable, at least not on the scale that most of us here on these boards are on.
 
Barry_Green said:
These companies take turns leapfrogging each other. Panasonic is the innovator, Sony is the me-too, and Canon perfects last-generation technology. When everyone else had moved off of tape, Canon was making the best HDV cameras. When everyone else is moving to larger sensors, Canon has just now released the state of the art in 1/3" cameras, etc. When everyone else is moving to h.264, Canon just released their version of state-of-the-art MPEG-2.
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As a general impression that is true, but Canon came out with the first big chip cams with the 5D and 7D. The GH1 and AF100 could be categorized as Panny playing catch up.

Also, the XH-A1 was way ahead of its time. It still holds up as a good camera even though it was introduced a couple of cycles ago, which is forever in camera years.

And the EX1 may have been a response to the HVX200, but as of this date I can't think of any other 1/2" full raster, full featured cameras for $6,000.

I think your leapfrogging statement was more accurate.
 
Did Sony put an S35 chip in a consumer videocamera already? I don't think this pro s35 will be too far away
 
Duke M. said:
As a general impression that is true, but Canon came out with the first big chip cams with the 5D and 7D. The GH1 and AF100 could be categorized as Panny playing catch up.

Also, the XH-A1 was way ahead of its time. It still holds up as a good camera even though it was introduced a couple of cycles ago, which is forever in camera years.

And the EX1 may have been a response to the HVX200, but as of this date I can't think of any other 1/2" full raster, full featured cameras for $6,000.

I think your leapfrogging statement was more accurate.
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The 5D and 7D are still cameras with consumer video features, never intended as true motion production cameras even though some are using them that way.

All of these new cameras from the big boys are still HD video cameras, big sensors or not.
Red 's distinction is being true native digital cinema format cameras. The 4k and up S35 models are capable of finishing at 4k or 2k digital cinema formats, including 2.40:1 scope, at full 35mm film scan equivalent resolution. Even 2/3" Scarlet will be capable of finishing at full native 2k digital cinema resolutions, including scope, without compromise. Reds will do this with unprecedented creative control over the image with true film like sensitivity and dynamic range. Something no encoded HD video camera at any price can do. HD video is a secondary consideration for Red.
 
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Duke M. said:
As a general impression that is true, but Canon came out with the first big chip cams with the 5D and 7D. The GH1 and AF100 could be categorized as Panny playing catch up.

Also, the XH-A1 was way ahead of its time. It still holds up as a good camera even though it was introduced a couple of cycles ago, which is forever in camera years.

And the EX1 may have been a response to the HVX200, but as of this date I can't think of any other 1/2" full raster, full featured cameras for $6,000.

I think your leapfrogging statement was more accurate.
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if were just basing it on release date and not the intention then sure... but canon just stumbled upon large sensor video accidentally. they were even surprised by it. I wouldnt call that "innovate"
 
Finnegan said:
I'd love it if Sony came out with an "affordable" video camera that blended a large sensor with great codec and all the features and tools that we've come to love on digital video cameras. However, this is Sony we're talking about and historically their cam systems are not affordable, at least not on the scale that most of us here on these boards are on.
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I've heard this statement before, and I really don't mean to pick on you, but I'd
certainly disagree. What about the VX-1000 (the camera that kind of started the
DV revolution?) What about the PD-150? A VERY popular workhorse in it's time.
What about the EX-1? Still, the ONLY 1/2 chip camera you can get under 10 grand.
Sony makes PLENTY of affordable camera systems. I would be way more inclined to
agree with Barry's view of the three of them 'leapfrogging' each other. Lots of times,
Panasonic will come out with a camera that has certain features on it FIRST, before the
others, but it's not like Sony and Cannon just sit there and let Panasonic have the market
to themselves, they respond with nice cameras too.....and sometimes respond with
features that the Panasonic camera does NOT have. This often leads to an (A) version
revision of the Panasonic with new features and so on. This competition is good for ALL
of us. If it wasn't for Sony and Canon, I bet the Panasonic cameras you buy wouldn't
be as nice as they are!
 
Nigel-Cooper said:
Sony have a few models coming out next year. This particular one does have a full-frame 35mm sensor.
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Nigel-Cooper, your wording is a little confusing, since, although there is no standard convention, "full frame sensor" around dvxuser and reduser generally refers to the 24x36mm size of 35 film based cameras of the past 50 or 60 years, and by extension such "full frame dSLRs" as the Canon 5D MarkII. Cameras like this, Sonys F35, Redone, Arri Alexa, etc. generally use the S35mm movie frame which is much smaller and about the same as APS-C sized dSLRs like the Canon 7D, 60D, digital Rebels, etc.

Redone is 24.2mm (h) x 12.5mm (v), I forget offhand what the official S35 movie size is but it is very close.
 
Barry_Green said:
Of course they're going to respond. The question is when? And what will you be doing between now and then, shooting or waiting?
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I learned my lesson on waiting for Scarlet. I'm done. Pre-ordered the AF100 yesterday. I don't care if another camera comes out that can be the next great or best. The AF100 is better than what I have now. That's whats important to me.
 
As a general impression that is true, but Canon came out with the first big chip cams with the 5D and 7D. The GH1 and AF100 could be categorized as Panny playing catch up. Also, the XH-A1 was way ahead of its time. It still holds up as a good camera even though it was introduced a couple of cycles ago, which is forever in camera years. And the EX1 may have been a response to the HVX200, but as of this date I can't think of any other 1/2" full raster, full featured cameras for $6,000.
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dcloud said:
if were just basing it on release date and not the intention then sure... but canon just stumbled upon large sensor video accidentally. they were even surprised by it. I wouldnt call that "innovate"
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Well, the ability to shoot video through a removable 35mm lens on a FF sensor didn't just happen. It was designed, planned and produced. What they didn't realize is just how popular it would be. Doing it over again with 24p in the 7D was again a design and manufacturing plan. If it wasn't innovative, why didn't the GH1 get released before those Canons? (Not that any of those three were implemented very well.)

That's why I think Barry's statement that the companies leap frog each other is more accurate. In that regard it will be interesting to see what Canon and Sony come up with next. If the Canon XF100 is revamped for a APS-C sized sensor it will be the next big thing simply because it has 4.2.2 color and 50Mbps.

I have my doubts about it happening, but that would be in the feature category of the rumored Sony PMW-Z35. It would be HD broadcast quality right out of the box and have a power zoom. Competition is the engine of evolution. :)
 
Duke M. said:
Well, the ability to shoot video through a removable 35mm lens on a FF sensor didn't just happen. It was designed, planned and produced. What they didn't realize is just how popular it would be. Doing it over again with 24p in the 7D was again a design and manufacturing plan. If it wasn't innovative, why didn't the GH1 get released before those Canons? (Not that any of those three were implemented very well.)

That's why I think Barry's statement that the companies leap frog each other is more accurate. In that regard it will be interesting to see what Canon and Sony come up with next. If the Canon XF100 is revamped for a APS-C sized sensor it will be the next big thing simply because it has 4.2.2 color and 50Mbps.

I have my doubts about it happening, but that would be in the feature category of the rumored Sony PMW-Z35. It would be HD broadcast quality right out of the box and have a power zoom. Competition is the engine of evolution. :)
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NEED is the engine of evolution.
 
Duke M. said:
As a general impression that is true, but Canon came out with the first big chip cams with the 5D and 7D. The GH1 and AF100 could be categorized as Panny playing catch up.

Also, the XH-A1 was way ahead of its time. It still holds up as a good camera even though it was introduced a couple of cycles ago, which is forever in camera years.

And the EX1 may have been a response to the HVX200, but as of this date I can't think of any other 1/2" full raster, full featured cameras for $6,000.

I think your leapfrogging statement was more accurate.
Click to expand...

Duke M. said:
Well, the ability to shoot video through a removable 35mm lens on a FF sensor didn't just happen. It was designed, planned and produced. What they didn't realize is just how popular it would be. Doing it over again with 24p in the 7D was again a design and manufacturing plan. If it wasn't innovative, why didn't the GH1 get released before those Canons? (Not that any of those three were implemented very well.)

That's why I think Barry's statement that the companies leap frog each other is more accurate. In that regard it will be interesting to see what Canon and Sony come up with next. If the Canon XF100 is revamped for a APS-C sized sensor it will be the next big thing simply because it has 4.2.2 color and 50Mbps.

I have my doubts about it happening, but that would be in the feature category of the rumored Sony PMW-Z35. It would be HD broadcast quality right out of the box and have a power zoom. Competition is the engine of evolution. :)
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I'm pretty sure the GH1 was released before the 7D (but both came out after the 5Dmkii).
 
Barry_Green said:
Of course they're going to respond. The question is when? And what will you be doing between now and then, shooting or waiting?

Historically Panasonic leads the market by a couple of years, Sony responds with something that is more expensive and somehow substantially different, and Canon trails them by two to three years. There will be responses, obviously. But it will probably be a long time. The three years from the Red to the "EX35" is about right -- Sony is responding to the Red here. The EX1 was their response to the HVX200, and it took 'em about two years to get that out. So if you want an under-$10,000 "EX35" response to the AF100, it might be about two years, if the pattern holds. And, if the pattern holds, it'll probably be more expensive, have a bigger chip, and a worse codec; there are always tradeoffs. Canon's response to the HVX200 was/is the XF300, their first "pro" tapeless camera. Took 'em over four years to get it out, and in a world of $4700 AF100s, it looks like a tough sale for a $6500 1/3" camera. But, if someone wants the best 1/3" handheld camera, Canon's got it.

These companies take turns leapfrogging each other. Panasonic is the innovator, Sony is the me-too, and Canon perfects last-generation technology. When everyone else had moved off of tape, Canon was making the best HDV cameras. When everyone else is moving to larger sensors, Canon has just now released the state of the art in 1/3" cameras, etc. When everyone else is moving to h.264, Canon just released their version of state-of-the-art MPEG-2.

If Sony comes up with a direct AF100 competitor this spring, that would really be surprising. If Canon comes out with one in the next 18 months, I'd be shocked.
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Very interesting market analysis. Just following the introduction of the 5DII, and then how Canon responded so quickly with firmware upgrades to make the 5D so much more usable by adding features that the Hollywood DP and the little guy wanted, I'm wondering if this new sense of market urgency might revise Canon's tortise like pace in how they follow up with the DSLR craze that the 5DII created. I mean now that their photo division has got their peanut butter in their video division's chocolate, we might see a new way of how Canon is going to handle the evolution of this product. There might be room in their corporate structure for the photo division to come up with a 5DV or 3DV dedicated to video without the codec issues that the stills side of the camera seems to introduce. You can see their photo division pushing already toward a more video centered camera with the 60D. It seems like what will determine alot of this is what Digic V will or won't be capable of.

It seems that really all they need to do is dedicate the camera to video, come up with a cine module that would attach to the bottom like their old motor drives allowing XLR, SDI conections etc, and they would make a boat load of people happy from the little guy to the Hollywood professional.
 
f64manray said:
Very interesting market analysis. Just following the introduction of the 5DII, and then how Canon responded so quickly with firmware upgrades to make the 5D so much more usable by adding features that the Hollywood DP and the little guy wanted, I'm wondering if this new sense of market urgency might revise Canon's tortise like pace in how they follow up with the DSLR craze that the 5DII created. I mean now that their photo division has got their peanut butter in their video division's chocolate, we might see a new way of how Canon is going to handle the evolution of this product. There might be room in their corporate structure for the photo division to come up with a 5DV or 3DV dedicated to video without the codec issues that the stills side of the camera seems to introduce. You can see their photo division pushing already toward a more video centered camera with the 60D. It seems like what will determine alot of this is what Digic V will or won't be capable of.

It seems that really all they need to do is dedicate the camera to video, come up with a cine module that would attach to the bottom like their old motor drives allowing XLR, SDI conections etc, and they would make a boat load of people happy from the little guy to the Hollywood professional.
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Updated so quickly? You have got to be joking. Have you seen what it took to get them to just give us manual controls? People were moving heaven and earth to even have an acknowledgement from Canon. It took what, more than a year before the 24/25p update happened and people were very loudly telling them what was needed from the first day. Pathetic to say the least.
The real question for Canon is how not to prematurely short circuit their market cycles. You want to know when they will release something "a little bit better"? Just look at their quarterly market sales and the trend curves for staying informed as to what will really happen. Next look at the typical 3 year product lifespans. Maybe they will take 6 months off of that before a new 5D actually hits the marketplace. Maybe. But don't hold your breath.

I certainly like the 5DMII better the most here, and am a moderator over at Cinema5D, but even I have to admit that Canon is an astoundingly deaf company when it comes to really listening to what their market is telling them.
 
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yoclay said:
Updated so quickly? You have got to be joking. Have you seen what it took to get them to just give us manual controls? People were moving heaven and earth to even have an acknowledgement from Canon. It took what, more than a year before the 24/25p update happened and people were very loudly telling them what was needed from the first day. Pathetic to say the least.
The real question for Canon is how not to prematurely short circuit their market cycles. You want to know when they will release something "a little bit better"? Just look at their quarterly market sales and the trend curves.
I certainly like the 5DMII better the most here, and am a moderator over at Cinema5D, but even I have to admit that Canon is an astoundingly deaf company when it comes to really listening to their market base.
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You're kidding right? Just when is the last time Canon revised a whole feature set for any DSLR. The fact that they did it at all is remarkable. I'm not sure what all the technical issues are, 12 months doesn't seem that long to me to program and then beta test the firmware upgrade to make sure it's not going to cause a world of problems just to give a small number of users a couple of features that most won't need. It's really remarkable you would say they were deaf. They listened and listened well. Most other companies would have just added it in the 5DIII, but Canon spotting the trend and excitement brought the 5DII up to speed. They changed the feature set for all their planned models downline (T1i, T2i, 7D) becuase of the reponse to the 5DII knowing the 5DII would be in the market for the next 2-3 years.

You make it sound like they were obligated to add that feature set. They could have said, and it would have been reasonable if they did "The 5DII isn't a damn video camera! If you want a video camera, buy one of our video cameras! Our addition of video is just another fun feature, we didn't intend for you to make major motion pictures with it!" I'm sure that was their first response to the freaky demands to making capable for movie makers. So, yeah. 12 months to respond was pretty damn quick. They don't owe you anything but the product they origianlly released which was already a FF with the 1DsIII sensor for $700 cheaper than the original 5D. It was groundbreaking already before the upgrade. Your sense of entitlement is bewildering.

but even I have to admit that Canon is an astoundingly deaf company when it comes to really listening to their market base
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Again, just amazing. They had reps in the field with the likes of Charters, Hurlbut, Laforet telling them what they (Canon) had on their hands. I'm sure they were shell shocked by it (we know they were), and just how it would effect the rest of their product line. Did they decide to do the smart thing and protect their video line or let the photo division go ahead and make the 5DII the best video camera it could be. They actually worked against their own interest in pleasing the customer the best they could within the 5DII's limitations.
 
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