Sony new DSLRs with video 30p only

NormanBates said:
I understand that these are still cameras, and that we are a niche market for all these companies, and so this features are not that important for them, BUT I don't think having manual controls, the right frame rates, and a decent LCD (which the D3100 lacks) was bad for t2i sales...
Click to expand...

"The right frame rates". Which one's would those be? Manual controls you say? The T2i lacks manual control for audio. Manual control for white balance. Heck it even lacks the basic ISO stops that came over from film.


NormanBates said:
in any case, let me say that T2i is all I need... except for the line skipping; I know it's not the end of the world, but I'm really bad at avoiding aliasing/moire, and I hate it; let 60D have the exact same video capabilities of the T2i (including codec, bitrate, hdmi out, ISO capabilities, etc), but without line skipping and for under $1000, and I'll get one, then come much less often to these forums to rant abot what a camera is lacking
Click to expand...

Look, the 5D was on the market for TWO YEARS before we saw the 7D last November. And the T2i just came to us in March. Given the development and product cycles for these cameras, it's likely that these cameras from Nikon and Sony that are hitting the shelves were designed before the 7D was even announced. This time last year, the 5D didn't even have 24p. And that was at 3 times the cost of the eventual T2i.

These are first efforts by companies trying to get in the game. It makes absolute PERFECT sense for them to release a product that Joe Blow can connect to his TV at the house and watch playback without having to worry about pulldown or PsF. They'll get to us soon enough.

And if you're having moire problems on your T2i, why not filter the lens? That will make things a lot better.
 
25P here in the UK PAL looks absolutely fine! I shoot stuff in 25p all the time...

Does Sony's DSLR allow you to switch from 30p NTSC to 25p PAL like the Canon DSLRs do?

In built IS, amazing AF - NICE
I don't see any nasty aliasing or moire on this Sony... NICE.

Still see that h264/liveview processed blotchy noise compression though.
 
Dan_Kanes said:
Replace Sony F35 with Red MX and you might be on to something. I'd put my MX up against an F35 on ANY test ANY day of the week.
Click to expand...

This illustrates the problem with being a market leader. When was the M-X released for sale?

Today's leader is tomorrow's history.
 
PerroneFord said:
"The right frame rates". Which one's would those be? Manual controls you say? The T2i lacks manual control for audio. Manual control for white balance. Heck it even lacks the basic ISO stops that came over from film.
Click to expand...

I was referring to 24, 25 and 30 as "the right frame rates"; you can add all the decimal stuff if you want to be a purist, but I won't

and i'd like manual control for audio, and white balance, but I can settle for just aperture and shutter speed; they didn't include those, though

I understand product cycles are really long, but when manual controls are left out that can only be an excuse: I don't think it would take them three months to create a new firmware that allows manual control; more like three weeks, perhaps... if they don't do that, it can only be because they want to sell you a $8000 camcorder; not for me, thanks
 
Steve Castle said:
Here's the point, not all cameras are designed for film makers, nor should we expect an entry-level SLR/"SLT" to be cater those needs. I was the first to display my disappointment at the lack of features in the Sony NEX-VG10 because that was a product that legitimately should have offered those features relative to the price level, but the world does not revolve around us. .
Click to expand...

Not sure what you are arguing here since I think we know that not all cameras are designed for filmmakers. Sony could have included some of the features like the T2i and they chose not too and as a consumer I can choose not to buy it.

Also, although the world may not revolve around us, the market surely does and its headed in a different direction by offering more features.

Steve Castle said:
The Nikon D3100, Canon T2i already offer 24P at a cheap price, videographers have those cameras as options. But if this is equipment that you are going to be earning a living with, it would display questionable judgment on entry level equipment designed for amateur vacationers that has video as an afterthought.
Click to expand...

Again, your making an assumption. Does it matter how anyone is using it as long as they know how to use the camera properly. In the past year, we have been seeing more and more "pro" features in entry level consumer cameras.

Steve Castle said:
Well placed criticism can be constructive, but here this whining is only marring potential intellectual discourse from something that is truly interesting. These "SLT"s are a complete rethinking of the SLR mirror-box design, hiterto mirrorbox has only gotten in the way of video, the entire assembly has had zero use when taking video. While these entry level A33/A55 are clearly not videocentric, the inevitable higher-end SLTs, that are expected to be announced Photokina a month from now, may be much more interesting.
Click to expand...

So when we have a criticism, its whining and when you do, its contructive.

Finally, I also believe we will see some interesting products coming out of Photokina but this latest offering by Sony does not get me excited for the future.
 
Last edited:
acoelho1 said:
Not sure what you are arguing here since I think we know that not all cameras are designed for filmmakers. Sony could have included some of the features like the T2i and they chose not too and as a consumer I can choose not to buy it.

Also, although the world may not revolve around us, the market surely does and its headed in a different direction by offering more features.


Again, your making an assumption. Does it matter how anyone is using it as long as they know how to use the camera properly. In the past year, we have been seeing more and more "pro" features in entry level consumer cameras.


So when we have a criticism, its whining and when you do, its contructive.

Finally, I also believe we will see some interesting products coming out of Photokina but this latest offering by Sony does not get me excited for the future.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen so much whine since I've been to Bordeaux.

What sort of narcissistic parallel universe do we live in? Do we really expect an entry-level consumer product to cater to the needs of filmmakers?

Honestly, even if this camera did have 24p and manual controls I'd still wouldn't buy this. Its limited to 17Mbps. I'm sure folks here would have no problem finding complaints about that, and countless other features which it lacks. At this level, on this cheap camera, its just a poser feature.

Like I said before, I was one of the first to criticize the lack of 24p and the interlaced container on the Sony NEX-VG10, its a reasonable request for $2k camera, but this camera slots in below the T2i. We have to understand, hundreds of dollars is a big deal for cameras in this price range, and profit margins are absolutely thin. People in this price bracket are buying a camera as a recreational tool, not a professional one, a hundred dollars means an extra day in Disney Land. It doesn't cost that much more to build a 7D then a T2i, but the market needs to be segmented to find profit and support R&D. Sony has stuffed a ton of features for still-photography into this camera, not much for video, the opposite is true for T2i.

Seriously, if you want a T2i, pay more, buy that. It may be worth it to you. It may also be worth it to you to upgrade further to a 7D, GH1, 5D2, or even the AG-AF100. But every freakin' camera that is released doesn't need to cater to likes of us. Move along and stop whining.
 
No, I think I rather whine some more. Why doesn't this camera have the same feature set as the Red One. I mean its only about 17k less in price... that's close..right?

Instead of trolling around, I think a reading comprehension class would do you some good. :evil:
 
acoelho1 said:
No, I think I rather whine some more. Why doesn't this camera have the same feature set as the Red One. I mean its only about 17k less in price... that's close..right?

Instead of trolling around, I think a reading comprehension class would do you some good. :evil:
Click to expand...

Seriously? I'm the one who's trolling? Those who don't conform to this ceaseless negativity on this forum are deemed 'trolls'? Sorry that I don't just jump on this boat and bash this $650 camera for having features that don't cater to film makers...

And really, classes in "reading comprehension"? So any counterpoint to this is and dissenting views are automatically judged as lacking 'reading comprehension'. Good job staying civil...
 
Last edited:
Hmmm....not sure why this has gotten so nasty. It's not a big deal to me, but...here's how it WILL CONTINUE TO WORK:

The line has been drawn. In this forum, it is likely that this camera will have about as many short films made on it as the NEX series have so far. (Almost ZERO, because it lacks 24P, Manual Control) Simple.

The T2i and GH1 represent the "bare minimum" that a camera MUST beat to be a feasible reason to sell your equipment and buy it (instead).

THE LINE IN THE SAND
Less than $800 (body only)
Manual control (aperture, ISO, shutter speed)
1080P
60P over cranking
24P
S35 sensor (or close to it as m4/3)

This is the CURRENT reality. If you are going to SELL YOUR CURRENT DSLR that has these features so that you can BUY any of the Sony camera that DON'T have these features: Please post on this thread and explain your view. If that is not the case....what is your point?

Here's my point: Sony MUST include all of the features under "the line in the sand" AT LEAST in order to compete HERE ON THIS FORUM in THIS COMMUNITY. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong. (Honestly) I'd LOVE to see a bunch of INCREDIBLE footage that is superior than the T2i and/or GH13....because then I'd buy it. ...but....they'll have to give us what we already have....and then move the product segment forward. If they don't why would anyone sell the existing system...and buy this one. Honestly, Steve and Perrone...I'm sure your logic makes sense...really....but who's going to buy this Sony camera?

SPEAK UP PLEASE: Are you selling your GH13 or T2i to buy this Sony camera? Would you pass on the T2i and/or GH13 to (instead) buy this Sony camera?

THIS MUCH IS CERTAIN: If my ~trashing~ this camera has been uncalled for....we'll know because there will be MANY short films shot and posted here on this forum. Otherwise....from our viewpoint....SONY MISSED THE BOAT ON THIS PRODUCT (for our needs) YES...consumer needs MAY be met....but then this isn't DVXConsumerIdiot.com now is it? (No flame, no bad blood....I was just hoping that Sony would actually move our segment forward and I'm disappointed that they didn't help us at all) :( If Sony added 1080/60P...you can BET that Canon and Panasonic would have to find a way to do so....or....we'll all be using Sony cameras in the next 9 months. See? Simple. I WANT the giants TO PUSH EACH OTHER....right? If it weren't for Red Camera Co....would we expect ANYONE ANYTIME SOON TO have RAW VIDEO? No one does....because it's 28K to play ball on that court right now. When it's 7K (cost)....we'll see more action down here at this price range....OR we'll all be Red Scarlet owners....either....beat the competition....or lose your customers. ISN'T COMPETITION GREAT? What competition did Sony just offer up? So....I wanted another giant throwing elbows...trying to earn their little piece of the pie....in the DSLR world....I assure you....Sony...didn't take a piece of ANYONE's PIE. Go look around on the internet for goodness sake....Sony's name is ALREADY MUD ON THIS ISSUE. I'm not the only one PISSED ABOUT THIS.
 
Last edited:
Oh...by the way...have you ever wondered why there isn't a "Pentax" section in the "DSLR in Motion" in this forum?
(No manual control out of the box and no 24P = NO DVXUSERS are shooting with them).
I wonder if there will be a Sony DSLR section? Hmmmm.....Barry?
 
HHL said:
Hmmm....not sure why this has gotten so nasty. It's not a big deal to me, but...here's how it WILL CONTINUE TO WORK:

The line has been drawn. In this forum, it is likely that this camera will have about as many short films made on it as the NEX series have so far. (Almost ZERO, because it lacks 24P, Manual Control) Simple.

The T2i and GH1 represent the "bare minimum" that a camera MUST beat to be a feasible reason to sell your equipment and buy it (instead).

THE LINE IN THE SAND
Less than $800 (body only)
Manual control (aperture, ISO, shutter speed)
1080P
60P over cranking
24P
S35 sensor (or close to it as m4/3)

This is the CURRENT reality. If you are going to SELL YOUR CURRENT DSLR that has these features so that you can BUY any of the Sony camera that DON'T have these features: Please post on this thread and explain your view. If that is not the case....what is your point?

Here's my point: Sony MUST include all of the features under "the line in the sand" AT LEAST in order to compete HERE ON THIS FORUM in THIS COMMUNITY. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong. (Honestly) I'd LOVE to see a bunch of INCREDIBLE footage that is superior than the T2i and/or GH13....because then I'd buy it. ...but....they'll have to give us what we already have....and then move the product segment forward. If they don't why would anyone sell the existing system...and buy this one. Honestly, Steve and Perrone...I'm sure your logic makes sense...really....but who's going to buy this Sony camera?

SPEAK UP PLEASE: Are you selling your GH13 or T2i to buy this Sony camera? Would you pass on the T2i and/or GH13 to (instead) buy this Sony camera?

THIS MUCH IS CERTAIN: If my ~trashing~ this camera has been uncalled for....we'll know because there will be MANY short films shot and posted here on this forum. Otherwise....from our viewpoint....SONY MISSED THE BOAT ON THIS PRODUCT (for our needs) YES...consumer needs MAY be met....but then this isn't DVXConsumerIdiot.com now is it? (No flame, no bad blood....I was just hoping that Sony would actually move our segment forward and I'm disappointed that they didn't help us at all) :( If Sony added 1080/60P...you can BET that Canon and Panasonic would have to find a way to do so....or....we'll all be using Sony cameras in the next 9 months. See? Simple. I WANT the giants TO PUSH EACH OTHER....right? If it weren't for Red Camera Co....would we expect ANYONE ANYTIME SOON TO have RAW VIDEO? No one does....because it's 28K to play ball on that court right now. When it's 7K (cost)....we'll see more action down here at this price range....OR we'll all be Red Scarlet owners....either....beat the competition....or lose your customers. ISN'T COMPETITION GREAT? What competition did Sony just offer up? So....I wanted another giant throwing elbows...trying to earn their little piece of the pie....in the DSLR world....I assure you....Sony...didn't take a piece of ANYONE's PIE. Go look around on the internet for goodness sake....Sony's name is ALREADY MUD ON THIS ISSUE. I'm not the only one PISSED ABOUT THIS.
Click to expand...

I'd agree with the minimum expectation for a camera for a filmmaker; manual controls, 1080p, 24p, etc. But NOT the $800 line. This Sony camera isn't meant for any serious film maker, nor was it ever meant to be. This is NOT a race to the bottom.

There is no line drawn in the sand. This camera has its niche in the core market where its aimed to sell cameras; pellix mirror, 15-point AF, built-in GPS, 10 fps photos, 12,800 ISO, Auto-HDR, 25,600 ISO NR multishot, etc. A nice camera for amateur photographers, not for video enthusiasts. All features that far outdo the T2i in still photography, which is their primary market and where their money comes from. Serious video is still a small niche.

My problem is the prevalent mutated sense of expectations on this forum for even the cheapest cameras.
 
There is no line drawn in the sand. This camera has its niche in the core market where its aimed to sell cameras; pellix mirror, 15-point AF, built-in GPS, 10 fps photos, 12,800 ISO, Auto-HDR, 25,600 ISO NR multishot, etc. A nice camera for amateur photographers, not for video enthusiasts. All features that far outdo the T2i in still photography, which is their primary market and where their money comes from. Serious video is still a small niche.

My problem is the prevalent mutated sense of expectations on this forum for even the cheapest cameras.
Click to expand...

I hear you Steve. I'm a photographer and I agree whole heartedly. I also agree that our expectations are unreasonably high. I hope you DO UNDERSTAND though...that THIS IS WHERE THE MAGIC HAPPENS...."DVXUSER"....the land of Indiefilm makers who shoot on shoe string budgets and produce jaw dropping results....so....we're all pushing for MORE POWER at a CHEAPER PRICE. I think the WORST PART IS: I think it's working.

Example 1: 5d Mark II ....no manual control. How much noise did people HERE ON THIS FORUM make? A LOT!! ...and it happened.

Example 2: 5d Mark II ...again....30P to 24P firmware update. How much noise?

Example 3: 7d. Canon gave 24P, 60P, for less money. WOWSER!! Did they listen to us? I know we'll never know....but....DVX bitching....may (prob not) play a role? So...maybe they listen.

Example 4: GH1 MUD. Vitaliy hears the cries of the masses here. (We'll have to ask him) But...again...the bitching worked! No Panasonic...but someone saved the day!

So....I hear you. And...it appears that someone out there hears us too? :) I hear you Steve. Points well taken.

Mad love (and respect) to DVXUsers everywhere.
 
HHL said:
I hear you Steve. I'm a photographer and I agree whole heartedly. I also agree that our expectations are unreasonably high. I hope you DO UNDERSTAND though...that THIS IS WHERE THE MAGIC HAPPENS...."DVXUSER"....the land of Indiefilm makers who shoot on shoe string budgets and produce jaw dropping results....so....we're all pushing for MORE POWER at a CHEAPER PRICE. I think the WORST PART IS: I think it's working.

Example 1: 5d Mark II ....no manual control. How much noise did people HERE ON THIS FORUM make? A LOT!! ...and it happened.

Example 2: 5d Mark II ...again....30P to 24P firmware update. How much noise?

Example 3: 7d. Canon gave 24P, 60P, for less money. WOWSER!! Did they listen to us? I know we'll never know....but....DVX bitching....may (prob not) play a role? So...maybe they listen.

Example 4: GH1 MUD. Vitaliy hears the cries of the masses here. (We'll have to ask him) But...again...the bitching worked! No Panasonic...but someone saved the day!

So....I hear you. And...it appears that someone out there hears us too? :) I hear you Steve. Points well taken.

Mad love (and respect) to DVXUsers everywhere.
Click to expand...

I'm all for more features for more affordable cameras, I'm on the same page with you here. We're in agreement but coming from different perspectives.

But as the GH1 hack has shown, there was quite a bit of headroom for Panasonic even with a camera that was generally well-beloved here.

Thing is I want better cameras at a reasonable prices, not just cameras that checks all the bullet points on the features list and sell them for the cheapest possible price. And again, I wouldn't want this camera even if this had 24p/manual controls, its still far too compromised a package overall. But I do want a camera done right, not something that caters to the lowest common denominator.

The reality is that the video market isn't a high-volume market, they need to make money on these low-end consumer cameras so they have the budget to develop cameras that better suit professional needs. Its economies of scale. The GH1 and the AG-AF100 is an example of this.
 
Thing is I want better cameras at a reasonable prices, not just cameras that checks all the bullet points on the features list and sell them for the cheapest possible price. And again, I wouldn't want this camera even if this had 24p/manual controls, its still far too compromised a package overall. But I do want a camera done right, not something that caters to the lowest common denominator.

The reality is that the video market isn't a high-volume market, they need to make money on these low-end consumer cameras so they have the budget to develop cameras that better suit professional needs. Its economies of scale. The GH1 and the AG-AF100 is an example of this.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. I look forward to *several* expensive cameras to be released in the next 12 months. 5d successor, Epic/Scarlet, and (sooner than the rest) AF100. No question these will NOT be "lowest common denominator"....not a one of them. And yes, we will all expect a "lower volume"....because...you are right....this isn't a high volume market in the first place. That said, the DSLR market IS high volume...but not because of the video....but rather because of the photo heritage. This is one reason it's opportunity for all involved is so significant. I'm sure this isn't news to you...as none of this is. I am sure we are on the same page here. Cheers to you and yours. Points all well taken Steve.

We'll both hold our breath for the upcoming releases: AF100, Red Epic/Scarlet, and 5d Mark II successor. I hope they move the market segment forward for us all!
 
Uh oh...looks like someone moved the market segment forward (not in a big way...but people here have been begging for this:

Canon 60D - DPreview
"An external stereo microphone terminal and the ability to adjust sound recording level ensures the audio track recorded matches the visual quality of the video, capturing broadcast-quality sound."

Now THAT'S moving the product segment forward. People have bitched about it. They are offering it now. WAY TO GO! Good for us all!

Uh...I might have understated that one....if it's TRULY broadcast quality sound...I think there's a BOATLOAD of people who won't mind NOT SYNCING their material with an external recorder. The articulating screen is ALSO moving the CANON product forward. GH1 likely affected this choice? Anywho...happy days when someone pushes for more. :)
 
Last edited:
HHL said:
WOWSER!!!! Now that's how you do it! I'm sure you'll agree here also Steve. :) (2x the cost I know...) But WOW!!

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_60d#Features

Here we go again. :) Everyday is like Christmas around here!
Click to expand...

Yep. One thing that SLR market doesn't lack is competition. Adding things like external mic, and articulating screen, etc really don't cost much to make, but its always a push and pull between adding features and maintaining market segmentation.

I remember back in the 20D/30D days, when Canon really didn't have any competition since they were the first to embrace CMOS sensors, Canon's xxD line was just a Rebel in a better body, and they artificially limited the frame-rate and ISO of the Rebel to insure sales of the xxD line (most features cold be unlocked with a hack). And back then the xxD series launched at $1,400. They still hold back the frame-rate in the Rebel, but only with competition has this camera gotten this good and this cheap.

Video for Canon is segmented non-linearly compared to the features in its still-photography which is tightly held-back to match its price-segment. Hopefully Sony, and the others, can compete more headon with Canon in video on the higher-end products, because Sony seems to be more non-linear with their still-photography features and more linear with their video features. Same goes with these Sony "SLT"s, while they aren't pushing Canon on video, they are pushing Canon on things such as speed, AF, and low-noise performance on the still-photography. There is no room or time to rest.
 
looking forward to september.. oly $ panny announces new stuff by then :D
if gh2 does touchscreen ala g2, proper implemented codec or high bitrate, panny wins for me :)

canon-wise, 60d is the best dslr for video there is right now IMO. its a 7D with an articulating screen and more video features :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top