F55: Sensors and Image Quality (F5/F55 vs F23 vs Codex ActionCam vs HPX3700)

My gut instinct tells me that if I can get an F23 for $2,000-$3,000 I'll pull the trigger but if not and my range is above $4,000 I'm going to go for the sony F55 or Codex ActionCam (leaning heavily towards the F55 right now though) its seems very versatile and I'm never realistically going to need that much 4k or 16 bit raw, although good to have. But as a camera downsampling 4K to 1080P distrubtion the F55 seems solid right now and for the next couple years as a work horse from what I'm looking today. If I'm not mistaken the F55 is great ergonomics and relatively light weight as well.
 
"Mad Men" was first shot on film, then on Alexa.

F55 was famously used to get that vintage look on Vinyl.
 
You're right and Vinyl also has a fantastic grit and look to it. On a side note the lenses used for Vinyl were Panavision Primo Primes Spherical Lenses and those are my favorite lenses I've seen them used on so muany different shows and films. No matter the camera those things are matched with they always look great. Of course super duper expensive and prob hard to find though.
 
The F55 is a highly versatile camera. Very popular in the sports and broadcast world in both features and even traditional ENG/newsy style use. It was also used to shoot theatrically released studio produced feature films and many highly acclaimed and popular narrative series. It could easily be considered this generations "Betacam".
 
Grug said:
Here's some grabs from a recent film I shot on the F55, where I was pretty happy with the results, and these really had sod all done to them in the grade:

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OtxDTXv.jpg
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Great .. and nice art direction !
 
Doug Jensen said:
If you don't need 4K or higher frame rates, I think the old F3 is one of the best looking HD cameras ever.
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Hey Doug, the F3 is also one of the cameras the Cinedeck EX was practically made for with that 10bit RGB444 and I am looking to use and record to my Cinesecks.

I’ve seen some footage from the F3 that has def surprised me. Some footage that even had as good gritty color texture as what I’d usually see from a Digital Bolex.

I guess some context for me visually speaking is this:

I’m not a fan of the CMOS larger camera trend and I’m not really a fan of shallow depth of field or the trend towards larger and larger sensors like super35 or full frame etc.

I’ve always been pulled more towards CCD sensors (one chip or three chip).

I’m a bit weird as I’m a filmmaker that believes in deep depth of field, pop comic book flooded style color, mis en scene, composing the entire frame vs just the actor’s face, camera zoom and simultaneous camera movement sometimes to extremes. My distribution is mainly online so my target is the small screen ie iPhones where people often only watch in 720P or 1080P and maybe home TV’s. I’m not targeting cinema release at all.

My favorite sensor ever: The super 16 Kodak CCD found in the Digital Bolex. (Second to that is the 2/3” Kodak CCD found in the SinaCam) I love Kodak.

My choice of lens Coverage: b3 lenses, b4 lenses, c mount lenses, at most with conversion to PL through adaptors. More and more I find I’m doubling down on the b4 mount.

My favorite style of camera: 3chipper 3CCD all the way.
My favorite embodiment of color and camera design: Digital Bolex/F23/F35
My favorite Sony signal to noise ratio even if it was 8 bit: PDW-F800(loved the look of this camera and originally I was going to buy this one but I ended up with a Panasonic HPX3100 cause of the 10 bit 4:2:2 and cause it was cheaper but honestly if I could have paid for the F800 what I paid for the HPX3100, I would have gone for the F800 because something about that image was appealing to me) my philosophy is to either go for texture and color or as high a signal to noise ratio as possible. One or the other if not both.
My philosopher on shallow depth of field: if I’m going to do shallow depth of field ona talking head shoot then go all the way (Fujifilm GfX100S medium format for me) ideally if they can improve that technology.

The sand box I intend to play in is 16mm, super 16, 1080/2k and ideally 10 bit 444 or 12 bit color but I don’t see myself needing more than that.

I’d love it if they made a camera 3chipper with Kodak CCD sensors but right now I’m looking for something that will last and give me the best 1080P color, signall to noise ratio and utilization of b4 lenses I can find. I’m exploring these larger sensors only cause of 4K Dow sampling to 1080P providing sharper image and the fact that most 444 outputs or 12 bit tend to be on larger format cameras instead of 3chip cameras but that’s why I was checking out things like HPX3700 or F3 even cause they could be had for cheap and if possible for $1000-$2000 (HPX3700 or F3) that could be worth it. Now if I bump it up to $4000-$5000 then I’m looking at (sony F23 or Codex ActionCam) and if I bump it up a bit more to dip into 4K, (I’m looking at F55 or FX6/FX9)

So my decision and options are ultimately:

$1000-$2000 (HPX3700 or F3)
I’ve been seeing Digital Bolex falling in between here.
Something like a C300/C500 I’ve been seeing falling here but also going for much cheaper sometimes.
$4000-$5000 (Sony F23 or Codex ActionCam)
$5000+ Higher end of my budget range (Sony F55, Canon C70, Fx6/Fx9)

I mean if you had to chose one winner for each of those three budget face offs who would it be and why? Which three winners for that low budget range, mid budget range, and how budget range? Knowing I’m a pop color, deep focus, high signal to noise ratio ccd guy, I guess if that was ever a thing lol.
 
As tiny a Kodak ccd sensor as it is: the below examples were all shot on either a SinaCam or Codex ActionCam

Bonobos music video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ebzEEEdjHj0
Codex ActionCam promo film: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fEYuat8JxHY
South Korea ep of Parts Unknown: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VoDIkaDgaf4
Film “Social Suicide”: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xEK4v9An8E0
Hand shots of the piano are actioncam and the further back wide shots are Alexa I believe: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o_1Wv6CAr4c
 
BatVal said:
I’ve always been pulled more towards CCD sensors (one chip or three chip).
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It's not going to give you the image quality you seem to be looking for but just for fun, have you ever tried a Lumix FZ-47? For casual shooting, I think it's a blast: small form factor, single CCD that's just shy of 1/2", 1080P (albeit pretty soft), full manual control, and a 600mm zoom with good stabilization. It's actually been a big part of the reason I haven't invested in one of the 2/3 Panasonic or Sony cameras. I can get shots I'd never be able to get with the Varicam 2700 or HVX200 I used to work with. Plus, it allows me to scratch the CCD itch from time to time without taking up half of my camera cabinet.

Of course if money and space weren't an issue, I'd get an F35 in a heartbeat.
 
QuickHitRecord said:
It's not going to give you the image quality you seem to be looking for but just for fun, have you ever tried a Lumix FZ-47? For casual shooting, I think it's a blast: small form factor, single CCD that's just shy of 1/2", 1080P (albeit pretty soft), full manual control, and a 600mm zoom with good stabilization. It's actually been a big part of the reason I haven't invested in one of the 2/3 Panasonic or Sony cameras. I can get shots I'd never be able to get with the Varicam 2700 or HVX200 I used to work with. Plus, it allows me to scratch the CCD itch from time to time without taking up half of my camera cabinet.

Of course if money and space weren't an issue, I'd get an F35 in a heartbeat.
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or the panasonic varicam 35 with the HS 2/3” head on it? edit: nevermind, seems to cost more than a varicam 35. same goes for the SonySrw9000 B4 being more expensive than the PL
 
Never heard of it but great recommendation. I like the color, that it’s ccd and the long zoom range. Only thing against it is like you said the sharpness of the video and with such a long zoom range and small body, image stabilization would only help on the long end of that zoom. But def never heard of this one. I wish there’s was more advanced development of a cinema grad ccd camera’s with under small sensors either single or 3chip.but maybe just tech advancing those sensors as much as possible. Gotta be some cool things they could hypothetically do with color and deep focus cinematography if large sensors weren’t the popular thing but who knows
 
Yea, the Panasonic Vatican HS does seem to tick a lot of boxes and has good codecs and features but it’s hard to find and pricier than one would think.
 
Thank you for the recommendation Doug. I ended up buying an F3 today for $1350 with 1140 hrs slog and 444 upgrade with PL mount and canon adaptor and some batteries. I will be using it with a CineDeck extreme to record for the color fantasy sequences in my short films and I’m exciting to test it out.

When all is said and done there’s something about that image that no matter who I saw using it and how, varied styles etc the quality was sharp and the colors where good.

It also kept winning me over.

The footage from the F3 looked sharper and cleaner to me when watching on my tv than some F23 footage I had seen and that was with super rare and expensive primo lenses. Maybe the tv was too big for the 1080P. It was good just didn’t seem as sharp as the F3.
I don’t like Cmos. I didn’t mind this one that much.
I don’t like Large sensor shallow depth of field. I didn’t mind this one that much. In fact, I found it useful.
This thing has some great footage in every example I saw. A top example being Red Hook Summer. Wish I knew what lenses spike was using.

Doug (if you’re reading this lol) these picture profiles are great. Do you still have them?

https://vimeo.com/30705957/description
https://vimeo.com/42206753
https://vimeo.com/39140086/description

Thank you everyone for you advice and helpful info. In a couple years when prices drop furthermore I’ll prob shift into an F55 but for right now this is really all I need. A sharp, colorful, HD/2k image.

Also all my lenses are B4. T1.4 canon digiprimes, fujinon cines, and a 12-550 Fujinon zoom. To get the sharpest I can get does anyone know if it’s worth investing in a b4x35 adaptor to use my 4-5 lenses I already have (only example I could find was this footage: https://vimeo.com/23263170 but I don’t know the quality of the glass they’re using. It looks more soft and not as sharp as as normal f3 footage)

Am I better off using my b4 glass on my hpx3100 and rather than investing in the adaptor to use my b4 lenses to just invest in a Single good lens for my f3?

I’m pretty much going for sharp, color popping, with film noir crisp blacks and a warm hue. Does anyone, if they could pick one lens for the F3, for sharp and warm color what it would be? If I could even get close to the look of Red Hook Summer I’ll be happy lol
 
BatVal said:
I’m pretty much going for sharp, color popping, with film noir crisp blacks and a warm hue. Does anyone, if they could pick one lens for the F3, for sharp and warm color what it would be? If I could even get close to the look of Red Hook Summer I’ll be happy lol
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I don't know what your lens budget is, but for "sharp + warm", modern Canon glass (the CN-E primes and zooms) fit the bill nicely.
 
There is a Optitek Nikon adapter for sale on the boards here. Only $150 (plus shipping) These adapters are rock solid when using photo lenses on the F3.
I use the Optitek with my Zeiss ZF primes, and Nikon zooms. I have tried all the adapters and this worked the best. The HD-B4 was a waste of time, and the good adapters are almost as much as the F3 you bought. A good picture profile looks great on the F3 when recording in controlled lighting. AbleCine have some nice profiles. And Doug Jensen has a PP. I use one from Macie video, when I'm using a profile. Grading the F3 in S Log in 444 is where it shines. Even recording 444 with a PP the grading is a dream. The rich color you are looking for will be there when recording 444. It looks really good in ProRes 422HQ as well (recording 10bit to the Odyssey 7Q+) I was surprised how good the 420 looked on the SXS cards on some projects just not as grade friendly. I use the Odyssey with the F3 most days. I have a PIX E5, this is much smaller than the Odyssey and gives you a really beefy 444 ProRes. I still use the Odyssey. There is a little lag when working off the PIX E5, the Odyssey not so much lag. The loadable LUTs on the Odyssey, with all the other amazing tools is a must for the F3. I really need my Zacuto Gratical when working outdoors in the sun.

Enjoy the F3 it's a great camera.

Broatch
 
Thank you so much for the info Broatch!

It’s amazing how many different options there are with cameras over the last 10-15 yrs. I’ll def check out those adapters. Can’t wait to test it all out and make a short film.
 
BatVal said:
Doug (if you’re reading this lol) these picture profiles are great. Do you still have them?

https://vimeo.com/30705957/description
https://vimeo.com/42206753
https://vimeo.com/39140086/description
Click to expand...

Congratulations on the F3. That camera doesn't suit my needs in 2021, but the image quality still rivals most the of newer cameras -- and exceeds many of them. Whatever I once knew about the specific settings and best practicies for the F3 is documented and shared in my F3 master classs. Other than that, I can't really offer any information. It has leaked out of my brain.
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/sonyf3
 
Congrats on the F3!
I've kept mine, and it still comes out for shoots with certain clients.
Of course now that you have it you really should be doing your own testing as well.
The combination of s-Log and the 4:4:4 dual link outputs give you great flexibility - of course then you'll be creating your color looks during postproduction grading rather than with the Picture Profiles.
My personal recommendation is that if you're going to use s-Log don't even think about using the s-Log picture profile to record internally - just use your internally recorded files as proxies for editing. Your externally recorded 4:4:4 files will blow away the internal recordings.
I'd also recommend setting up one of the addressable buttons to toggle your monitor/vf output between LUT viewing and s-Log - it won't affect the dual link output to your recorder, but remember that it will change the look of your internal recording.
As others have mentioned, don't even think about trying to shoot outside without a proper EVF. (The one on the back of the camera is for emergency use only!)
I'd also second the Nikon adapter suggestion - since older Nikon glass with physical iris rings can be de-clicked to allow for smooth iris changes. Strangely enough I ended up with two different 28-70 lenses for my 'normal' shooting -- the Nikkor 2.8 is my go-to, but for times when I'm shooting older faces it can just be too sharp and I'll switch to the Tokina 2.6-2.8 which has a smoother and softer feel. I also keep Nikon 17-35 and 80-200 2.8 lenses in the F3 case to round out the basic focal lengths.
Above all, spend some time getting used to the camera!
 
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