FS7: RED Scarlet-W

[Ben Scott]

Again, I'm simply making the point that BM does not play in the same arena as Red. They load up their cameras with what sounds like great specs and sell them cheap to people that make purchases off watching youtube videos and reading spec sheets.

BM has never once delivered what it says it would on a camera. I don't understand why all of a sudden everybody assumes it is a given that they suddenly will this time.

It will be a cheap camera for enthusiasts and aspiring filmmakers looking to get on the ladder of camera ownership past DSLRs where cost and perceived value is everything. Absolutely nothing wrong with that and it is a very healthy market. It's the place where the AF101 used to live as well which I loved to pieces.

It might be all the camera you might want/need/can afford, but it's not an FS7, and it's not a Red Raven, and it's not a Red Scarlet.

 

[yoclay]

Personally, I like the BM look. I think they have a nice color science. However, everything else about BM cameras are pretty terrible - strange body design, bad customer service, un-reliable, always have had major glitches upon release. but people put up with the major shortcomings just because of price.

So while BM's image / color science is arguably on the same level as Red and Sony, their cameras are quite behind in many other aspects, hence the cheap price.

Having seen a lot of BM footage come through the door, I would say it definitely has a look. I'm just not sure how much I like it or how good the color science is. I don't think it is on the same level as RED, and I have issues even with the latter. I constantly have to boost the saturation in BM footage by HUGE percentages to get an even normal looking color scheme. That signals an issue. What this tends to create are huge cross overs in terms of complimentary colors. Generally, I can spot BM footage because the shadows are often going cyan while the skin is moving in the other direction. This is not irreperable, but definitely takes a lot of work to get beyond the "pastel" thing which oftern results. I am hoping that their new sensor also improves on this front. But you are indeed right, up to now, their cameras, quality control and service are entirely undependable and this keeps the pro's away. I sense though that this camera will now be sufficiently along in terms of it's generation that things could be changing for them.

RED's strength is it's compression schemes. It is the unsung hero of their cameras. This is what enables them to move towards higher resolutions. Their images have a great deal of solidity as a result. That is a look too. I find it entirely appropriate for certain subject matter. My only hope is that certain parts of the color spectrum continue to expand and are not forgotten as they move towards 8K. I sense their strategy though is to obtain greater nuance through larger sensor real estate. As a tool I think Weapon is going to be a pretty good swiss army knife. Raven less so. I like the idea that Prores can be shot parallel to RAW on Scarlet. This is very efficient. To be perfectly honest, I see very little added benefit beyond Prores 444 with RAW. As long as the superwhites are preserved it is entirely sufficient even from the grading point of view for most work. If I was buying a new camera though (which I am not, I prefer to invest in scripts and film projects rather than cameras these days) I would wait until weapon's next sensor comes out. The bugs will be ironed out of the weapon system by then and the devaluation will probably be less on the camera as well. Hopefully the new sensor will expand DR and color sensitivity, but that remains to be seen. I would like to see them get rid of the OLPF system altogether, which feels like a patch and not a solution to me, but that is doubtful.

For me, the camera company that arrives at internal Prores 4K in 444 with a decent framerate (at least 60, hopefully 120 fps) will have hit the holy grail. This would be platform agnostic and help standardize many aspects of the workflow. We will get there I am sure.

Lastly, I really think Sony has done a good job of getting back into the market. They were nowhere 5 years ago in terms of the lower end pro market (I loved the F35 though). My sense is that something is coming now that the F5 appears to be on the way out. This may mean updating the FS7 or an entirely new beast, but I wouldn't be surprised if a stronger codec is part of the equation.

I cannot underline enough though the importance of simplicity. What I like most about the Alexa is precisely this. It just works. It is rock solid and you can count on it to deliver, while most of it's connectors are industry standard and well placed. Most DP's I know who use it, don't speak about IQ (which they like very much). They speak about how easy and reliable it is. Hmmm. Dare I say that Sony needs to take a lesson from their playbook?

 

[Ben Scott]

Could someone offer a me a concise breakdown (in layman terms) of what purpose the different Red bodies serve?
So many that i cant keep up as a casual observer!
Im guessing they each cover different applications but I'm confused about which does what

It's not so much different applications as even the Raven can shoot at the resolution and compression used to shoot all of Daredevil

Weapon is the big Kahuna. 6-8K high framerates with lowest compression. The magnesium version is substantially cheaper and gives up some higher framerates. The DP's owner/operator camera.

Until Scarlet-W came along which looks a better bet as it has most things most productions need on a daily basis with the idea you can rent a weapon brain for the day you need that super slomo 6k shot.

Raven is incredibly lightweight and is intended both as a a less expensive introduction to the Red ecosystem, but also as a gimbal and aerial cam but can just as easily shoot an entire feature.

 

[DLD]

Again, I'm simply making the point that BM does not play in the same arena as Red. They load up their cameras with what sounds like great specs and sell them cheap to people that make purchases off watching youtube videos and reading spec sheets.

Actually, the Cinema and the Production 4K are used by pros in many nations - i.e., anywhere outside of Western Europe - where Red/Alexa/F55/65/Ikegami is deemed not worth the investment. It's often used on the multi-camera TV productions and so on. Its main competition in that department is C300, as the transition to 4K has not taken place outside of the (relatively speaking) big budget features.

BM has never once delivered what it says it would on a camera. I don't understand why all of a sudden everybody assumes it is a given that they suddenly will this time.

One can answer this statement philosophically or economically. Going with the latter, I'd reply that, at this time, BMD has to either put up or shut up primarily because it has already lost the "low price champion" crown to the Sony A7S/R series and GH4/G7/NX1. The next generation of the DSLR style cameras from the major manufacturers - D5, A9/99, 1D X MKII, Leica/Panasonic SL - would likely improve on codecs, resolution, frame rate, color science, etc. rendering the current URSA advantages virtually meaningless.

Naturally, the next step for the DSLR's is to close the gap between them and the top tier pro gear such as Red, ARRI, Sony F-series, Varicam. By the NAB'16, this gap will be made negligible. By the NAB'17, it will no longer be discernible to an average consumer with an average 4K TV.

 

[starcentral]

BMD looks great, but DNG as quasi RAW is not for me. It needs to have some form of compression otherwise what's the point, you might as well shoot ProRes and then you're not shooting RAW so then you might as well shoot XAVC or SR Codec… .

The only 3 camera's I know shooting proper RAW are ARRI, RED and now Sony (unless I missed one).

It terms of looks I think everyone knows my feelings: ARRI, RED, Canon, BMD and Sony.

 

[Ben Scott]

Actually, the Cinema and the Production 4K are used by pros in many nations - i.e., anywhere outside of Western Europe - where Red/Alexa/F55/65/Ikegami is deemed not worth the investment. It's often used on the multi-camera TV productions and so on. Its main competition in that department is C300, as the transition to 4K has not taken place outside of the (relatively speaking) big budget features.

One can answer this statement philosophically or economically. Going with the latter, I'd reply that, at this time, BMD has to either put up or shut up primarily because it has already lost the "low price champion" crown to the Sony A7S/R series and GH4/G7/NX1. The next generation of the DSLR style cameras from the major manufacturers - D5, A9/99, 1D X MKII, Leica/Panasonic SL - would likely improve on codecs, resolution, frame rate, color science, etc. rendering the current URSA advantages virtually meaningless.

Naturally, the next step for the DSLR's is to close the gap between them and the top tier pro gear such as Red, ARRI, Sony F-series, Varicam. By the NAB'16, this gap will be made negligible. By the NAB'17, it will no longer be discernible to an average consumer with an average 4K TV.

So you're saying they are used in arenas where pricepoint is more important than image quality? Exactly as I said...


I'll shut up about BM now because a lot of the time - and I'm not saying this of you - I realise I am talking to someone who has never used the camera they are saying is a world beater, and never used the camera they profess to loathe so and everything is a circular conversation that is wasting everyone's time and doesn't mean anything

I'll just leave it by saying I truly hope the 4.6K Ursa Mini proves to be an amazing and robust tool. Not just 'for the price' but standing alongside the likes of the FS7.

 

[DLD]

So you're saying they are used in arenas where pricepoint is more important than image quality? Exactly as I said..

You're assuming the "image quality" is absolute. What I am saying is that BMD models can deliver a pleasing enough image for the vast majority of viewers. Now, given that the camera cost is a very small portion of a medium-to-high budget professional production, it rarely hurts to go for the best available camera (Alexa65 doesn't count). But, in the hands of an experienced operator and colorist, BMD products are good enough for everyone not stuck in front of a $30,000 professional monitor. And, as I said in the past, even if the image isn't quite equal to Alexa's, it's good enough to stand on its own.

 

[Ben Scott]

I don't know which bit of that is supposed to look good but if hypersaturated with a bog standard LUT and blown skies float your boat then enjoy. You certainly do not need to have a $30,000 monitor to see both image and operational issue with all previous BMD cameras and nothing yet shown of this one look a lot better.
If it's good enough for you then brilliant. But that doesn't mean it is good enough for other people who have different requirements.

 

[Ben Scott]

I have no idea why they are not commissioning a good professional well made video. It is absurd.

 

[NorBro]

Ben, you hate Blackmagic, lol.

 

[Ben Scott]

haha.. I've simply learned the hard way that a bunch of specs written on some paper is worth slightly less than the paper itself.

I absolutely genuinely hope they would come out with a phenomenal camera. I think they are a few years away from that still.

 

[Liam Hall]

I don't know which bit of that is supposed to look good but if hypersaturated with a bog standard LUT and blown skies float your boat then enjoy. You certainly do not need to have a $30,000 monitor to see both image and operational issue with all previous BMD cameras and nothing yet shown of this one look a lot better.

If it's good enough for you then brilliant. But that doesn't mean it is good enough for other people who have different requirements.

I agree Ben, 'Fall in 4k' fell at the first hurdle for me.

I've shot with the BMC camera in the mid-east (clients camera). I got some decent imagery out of it, but it lacked DR and suffered terribly from infrared contanimation and it was a long way short of professional in terms of design and build. Most importantly though, none of my other clients ever ask for it.

 

[NorBro]

P.S. (side note)...the URSA can record ProRes 444XQ up to 60fps internally, but I was getting dropped frame with the 2.0 card...speeds may not be there yet.

For this purpose and for higher framerates in the future, there is dual card mode where the camera records frames back and forth between the 2 cards, but only for RAW (.dng).

 

[AndreyBlanco]

the Guy Definitely have a personal thing agains Blackmagic and for some reason think RED cameras are the best thing in the world. Something tell me he ever had used a BM camera.

Ben, you hate Blackmagic, lol.

 

[Ben Scott]

What utter bollocks.

 

[yoclay]

BMD looks great, but DNG as quasi RAW is not for me. It needs to have some form of compression otherwise what's the point, you might as well shoot ProRes and then you're not shooting RAW so then you might as well shoot XAVC or SR Codec… .

The only 3 camera's I know shooting proper RAW are ARRI, RED and now Sony (unless I missed one).

It terms of looks I think everyone knows my feelings: ARRI, RED, Canon, BMD and Sony.

Well, then unless I have misunderstood something in what you are saying, you are out of luck Dennis, because RED does not shoot "proper" RAW either. That's just a marketing name. Actually it outputs wavelet compressed footage and is therefore "quasi" as you put it. The best compression value being 3:1, but that ratio increases quickly as soon as your frame rate or resolution goes up.

However, this is one example where in my opinion, not being RAW is a plus. The best thing RED has going for it, is their compression scheme. I am not a huge fan of RED (as Ben will tell you) but this aspect of their product is darned good. All the hardware in the world wouldn't matter unless there was this first.

 

[jshbckr]

In case people missed it.

Prices and details released next week. Shipping feb/March.

I think I'm all over the OMOD XLR

I'm interested in seeing pricing. Overall, it seems a bit too beefy for me. I really like how low profile RED's V-mount extension is. and I could use an A-Box on the side if I need XLR (and it's nice and small to remove and pack away if it's not needed).

From a feature standpoint, they packed a ton of stuff in those OMOD boxes. What are the differences between all of the models? Doesn't look like they have any of those different names currently on the site.

Unfortunately, I don't think I use enough of the brands they are using to justify getting the tech inside. I don't use Switronix, so the bluetooth battery reporting isn't useful. I don't use Teradek or Paralinx for my wireless, so the integrated wireless video option into FoolControl wouldn't be useful. My audio guys always use a TIG for timecode, and I have no clue if any of their gear uses that Ambient Time Code LockIt box stuff... so that feature could very well be a waste for me. All really awesome features, I'm just not really in a position to use any of them!

 

[DLD]

I don't know which bit of that is supposed to look good but if hypersaturated with a bog standard LUT and blown skies float your boat then enjoy...

Alexa is heavily saturated too, unless you shoot Raw and leave it there. In any case, given that BMD is an entry level pro gear, its operators will lack the prestige and the skill level of the big boys much like a sub-$1,000 stills camera will have a higher percentage of amateurs than 5D or D4. This doesn't mean that one can't take nice images with a sub-$1,000 camera.

I have no idea why they are not commissioning a good professional well made video. It is absurd.

Well, that's their burden to bear. As I'd mentioned in a previous post, their affordability advantage is pretty much gone by this point and, should they experience further delays or quality control problems, their camera business will be facing extinction.

 

[Ben Scott]

The difference is I have seen amazing stills from a Canon 500d. There hasn't been a single good 4.6k Ursa Mini video put out there. Now that's either the fault of the filmmakers, who are clearly not experienced, or the fault of the camera. Or both.

Please don't compare it to the Alexa. It is so unfair on Blackmagic. Compare it to the FS5 and the C100mk2. But once you've actually used it. As it stands I think the FS5 is an awful camera with a couple of great tricks and the C100mk2 is a very solid if unspectacular all rounder that has a nice enough image but sacrifices high frame rates.

Those are the two cameras the BM one might possibly be taking sales away from and out of those 3 possibly the one that would most interest me.

A ready to shoot Raven will be at least 3 times the price. A Scarlet 6 times. And for a totally different type of user. I have urged people on here not to buy a Red several times just on the back the specs. It requires a different way of working to get the best out of it and it is not for everybody.

But entry level pros (as you call them) repeatedly telling experienced shooters that their camera is almost Alexa quality or Red quality is like a newbie guitarist trying to tell Jimmy Page their Epiphone Les Paul is 98% as good as his original '59 Burst Gibson.

i don't think anything I am saying is controversial here. To reiterate to people being silly accusing me of bias, I sold my Red after getting annoyed with them to buy a Sony and got a ton more work.

 

[Ben Scott]

Josh, the big reveal on specs and pricing is said to be within a week. It also appears they are working with a ton of other protocols and whatnot which will be rolled out in the future for follow focus, timecode and audio.