Red Scarlet Announcement Info

I really don't get why there is a discussion about 3D in the thread about the Scarlet X release… Are all the 'Poor' indie producers who are complaining about the base price of a Scarlet body suddenly going to come up with the cash for:
-2 bodies
-2 sets of matching lenses
-2 sets of support gear
-the $100K++ 3d rig to hold them

Is the lack of 60fps at 5K for 3D the new crutch for what's holding you back from shooting your first 'Feature' Film?

Sorry if I sound harsh, but sometimes the expectations here just go over the top… This really is a bottom rung 'Pro' production camera - for the big guys shooting 3D features this cam isn't even on the radar, except maybe as a crash cam.

G.
 
isle said:
I'm sure firmware hack will turn it to EPIC.
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Not possible. Firmware upgrades unlock the potential of the hardware. Scarlet-X lacks the processing power of Epic. I suppose that more frame rates at higher resolution might be enabled via higher-compression RedCode settings. But without increasing the total data rate the camera can handle, Scarlet cannot be transformed into an Epic.
 
heavyG said:
I really don't get why there is a discussion about 3D in the thread about the Scarlet X release… Are all the 'Poor' indie producers who are complaining about the base price of a Scarlet body suddenly going to come up with the cash for:
-2 bodies
-2 sets of matching lenses
-2 sets of support gear
-the $100K++ 3d rig to hold them

Is the lack of 60fps at 5K for 3D the new crutch for what's holding you back from shooting your first 'Feature' Film?

Sorry if I sound harsh, but sometimes the expectations here just go over the top… This really is a bottom rung 'Pro' production camera - for the big guys shooting 3D features this cam isn't even on the radar, except maybe as a crash cam.

G.
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I obviously disagree. Scarlet is supposed to be future proof, so it should be viable beyond a first feature film. If 3D isn't going away any time soon, then you might want to be able to shoot 3D with it. The rigs are currently very expensive, but they will undoubtedly come down in price. I'm sure enterprising people will see to that. The point is that the camera can handle only current frame-rate standards at 4K, and not (yet) with HDRx. If they change -- 48 fps and 60 fps seem to be the likely candidates -- then Scarlet will be obsolete (at least at the future-proof 4K resolution). Plus it's nearly worthless for overcranking, whereas the 2/3-inch design was specced to do 3K up to a sustained 120 fps (60 fps with HDRx). So it's not an irrelevant consideration. As a side not, there was plenty of discussion about the 2/3-inch 3K Scarlet's being an ideal camera for 3D: decent resolution, small size, workable DOF, and higher frame rates.
 
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Scarlet is Scarlet. It is what they (Red) decided to build and put on the market. Suggestions that someone should hack a $10K+ camera are really silly. I sure wouldn't want to go to work with it and bet a client on it working. When the GH1 came out I bought it and used it as a B camera and then tried the hack on it as a B camera. Some used it as a main camera and it worked. I didn't have to and didn't want to take the risk of it failing. I must admit I had very little remorse about messing with the firmware on a consumer grade camera the at best would be sensational and worst, be a door stop. I would however not feel comfortable ripping off the Red company and using a hacked Scarlet in place of an Epic. It is wrong. Lots of folks are not happy with the product now called Scarlet and I am among those who find it NOT to be the camera that I followed for so many years and waited for. Red has continuously told everyone that they will change whatever they want....whenever they want. Red has lots of competition now and Jannard says he loves competition so lets see what the future brings to those of us who aren't waving the Red flag anymore.
 
Either way... I doubt anyone will take on hacking a 10K camera. But you never know what kind of rich programmers are out there... looking for a challenge... amongst the forums...
 
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Tzedekh said:
As a side not, there was plenty of discussion about the 2/3-inch 3K Scarlet's being an ideal camera for 3D: decent resolution, small size, workable DOF, and higher frame rates.
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Plenty of discussion for 2-3 years about a camera that did not exist beyond a few engineering prototypes (that didn't work if you read the comments over at the other board) - for a camera that will not be released… So all that discussion was for naught.

As for your statement that Scarlet is supposed to be 'Future Proof'; do you really buy the ad hype? Nothing is future proof! Main reason is we don't know what the future will be - buy / rent the camera that does the job you need today. Don't worry about 2-3 years from now; I bought Scarlet and I know that 12 months from now I'll be on to something else. Sad fact of life in the 21st century.

Over cranking? Really doesn't matter even at 120fps (or 300fps) because my clients who want slo-mo will pony up for a Phantom. Again just because the ⅔ was specced for a certain frame rate obviously didn't make it happen.



Right here, right now, today - let's talk about the tools that are available that we can each afford in our own price ranges for the type of jobs we do. If you play the game of what will happen 3 years from now; you will be forever waiting to buy the next big thing. The camera that you shoot your indie short / feature / doc on doesn't matter - it's the story - damn it isn't even the story, it's how well you craft your synopsis and trailer!

Your equipment should never be the reason you 'can't' do something - What if someone had said to Robert Rodriguez "Hey man, that ARRI 16M doesn't have crystal synch, you'll never be able to shoot a feature with dialogue!!".

G.
 
I wish I could rep this.

heavyG said:
I really don't get why there is a discussion about 3D in the thread about the Scarlet X release… Are all the 'Poor' indie producers who are complaining about the base price of a Scarlet body suddenly going to come up with the cash for:
-2 bodies
-2 sets of matching lenses
-2 sets of support gear
-the $100K++ 3d rig to hold them

Is the lack of 60fps at 5K for 3D the new crutch for what's holding you back from shooting your first 'Feature' Film?

Sorry if I sound harsh, but sometimes the expectations here just go over the top… This really is a bottom rung 'Pro' production camera - for the big guys shooting 3D features this cam isn't even on the radar, except maybe as a crash cam.

G.
Click to expand...
 
heavyG said:
As for your statement that Scarlet is supposed to be 'Future Proof'; do you really buy the ad hype? Nothing is future proof! Main reason is we don't know what the future will be - buy / rent the camera that does the job you need today. Don't worry about 2-3 years from now; I bought Scarlet and I know that 12 months from now I'll be on to something else. Sad fact of life in the 21st century.
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I agree. I don't think Scarlet-X and Epic are as future-proof as RED makes them out to be. They'll have a sensor upgprade and maybe some board upgrades, but after a while they'll probably want to change that chassis and start over. You're dealing with electronics they get better all the time so keeping the same chassis and core electronics over time could be restricting. This is what happened to the RED One. The "Obsolete Obsolescence" slogan will never, ever work in electronics.

It's like computers. We use to think we could just upgrade the video card or the memory. But realistically, after a few years you end up gutting the whole dang thing.

RED is also an idea factory. They love tinkering and designing. I can't see them stopping here and just designing sensors and circuit boards for the rest of their days. Circuit boards are boring, lol.
 
The move to 16bit per pixel capture is what cost frame rates for Scarlet X. Based on the published frame rate/crop/compression table, max data rate on Scarlet is somewhere in the 70MB/sec range. ( that's mega Bytes not bits).
Scarlet 2/3" was supposedly a 12 bit camera.
But I have a feeling Red is sandbagging a bit on frame rates for now. Scarlet has a bit more processing power than Red 1 which is still a 12 bit camera.
 
Love the 3D comments, espcially from Heavy G. I just don't get how people are or were expecting to shoot 3D on an indie super low budget, with Scarlet. Granted, I agree the 2/3" 3k camera was more desirable. I really wish they had made it, but they didn't.

I might get flamed for this, but if I were seriously thinking about shooting a 3D film on a low budget, right now I'd just rent the Panasonic AG-3DA1. Or heck, just borrow/rent or even buy a Sony HDR-TD10. It will shoot 1080p, if not 60p in 3D. You won't have to worry about depth of field, focus, zoom matching issues with the lens. Your rig is going to be standard filmmaking gear. I would take the rest of my resources and put them into proper lighting, production design, cinematography techniques to make the best 3D use. Along with hiring quality actors, and spending the extra effort to have a good story, etc.

Granted, it's not like shooting on an Alexa or Epic. But if you're doing this on a very low budget...
 
Piolet said:
I agree. I don't think Scarlet-X and Epic are as future-proof as RED makes them out to be. They'll have a sensor upgprade and maybe some board upgrades, but after a while they'll probably want to change that chassis and start over. You're dealing with electronics they get better all the time so keeping the same chassis and core electronics over time could be restricting. This is what happened to the RED One. The "Obsolete Obsolescence" slogan will never, ever work in electronics.

It's like computers. We use to think we could just upgrade the video card or the memory. But realistically, after a few years you end up gutting the whole dang thing.

RED is also an idea factory. They love tinkering and designing. I can't see them stopping here and just designing sensors and circuit boards for the rest of their days. Circuit boards are boring, lol.
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This is why the modular system makes so much sense. It allows individual components of the camera to develop at their own pace without having to buy a complete new camera just to get an upgrade to a sensor or to a new recording media format.

Some of the most significant changes have come on the software side, and so far software upgrades are free.
 
Razz16mm said:
The move to 16bit per pixel capture is what cost frame rates for Scarlet X. Based on the published frame rate/crop/compression table, max data rate on Scarlet is somewhere in the 70MB/sec range. ( that's mega Bytes not bits).
Scarlet 2/3" was supposedly a 12 bit camera.
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Unless they changed it since the announcement, Scarlet-x's data rate is 55 MBps. Scarlet 2/3" was last specced up to 100 MBps. I believe the last official bit depth for Scarlet 2/3" was 12 bits, but I could swear I saw 14 bits mentioned at one point.
 
Tzedekh said:
Unless they changed it since the announcement, Scarlet-x's data rate is 55 MBps. Scarlet 2/3" was last specced up to 100 MBps. I believe the last official bit depth for Scarlet 2/3" was 12 bits, but I could swear I saw 14 bits mentioned at one point.
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As I said, I think they are sandbagging a bit on the potential. 70MB/sec was what it calculated out to for 12fps 5k 16bit at 3:1 compression.
 
Can't we just all let go of what Scarlet was supposed to be prior to Nov 3 2011? It changed, the released camera is different…

Buy it - don't buy it - but just move on...

G.
 
heavyG said:
Can't we just all let go of what Scarlet was supposed to be prior to Nov 3 2011? It changed, the released camera is different…

Buy it - don't buy it - but just move on...

G.
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Kinda rude, actually. The comments about the "old" Scarlet are for reference. If you don't like the discussion, you may move on if you wish.
 
I feel like i need to chime in this little piece.

I am not a red fanboy at all. In fact I am quite the opposite. I appreciate the great work they do and for sure they make great technology. But I cant stand the elitism, the refusal to allow negative comments and the disregard for other tech out there.

But the scarlet announcement dropped my jaw. Amazing, really amazing at that price point. ANd I was considering ways to purchase one.

But then i came to my senses in a way i think 90 plus percent of those putting down payments for scarlets simply wont.

Most of my work simply doesnt need 4K - just doesnt period. Yes features have a need for that to future proof. But most of my work is online, or television or dvd, or simply HD. And I have an af100, a 7d, an hvx200 and a hpx500 all that were and still are great investments. And they will do just fine for almost all of my future projects. And if something needs more I can rent.

But for me to justify a 14K+ purchase just to get 4K (and yes all the other features such as HDRx, latitude - all of which are great) just doesnt make sense. And I can afford it. What is really unfortunate is that there are so many people who will scrap together the cash to get one. And the market will saturate and rentals and resale values are gonna go way down. And the competitive edge for a shooter having a scarlet just wont be there. Having a good reel is gonna be so much more important.

So i congratulate RED - amazing acheivement. Seriously great work.

But I caution everyone out there to really look at WHY you are buying that camera instead of really amazing $5K options that will make you money far quicker. Really look at if it makes great business sense or just satisfies the same "need to have it" urge that so many iphone users are battling right now.

thats my 2 cents
 
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