Red Scarlet Announcement Info

John Caballero said:
Red makes the biggest announcement of their history and they don't show footage? The fanboys cheer the fantastic new machine and there is not even a second of footage to be seeing? That is just unbelievable. Meanwhile Canon shows Hollywood mini movies. They say look at footage from Epic and it will be the same. Really? Are they going to shoot themselves on the foot by releasing a camera that costs $10k and shoots pictures equal to their most expensive one? The big guys must be laughing their heads off. I am not getting neither camera and the Scarlet most likely in the distant future. Now lets wait what disaster they cook up next to delay production and give them more time to get it working properly. And after they start shipping lets see how many bugs they will have to address, something typical with any new camera. What a crazy way to do business.
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http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?66081-Consider-Scarlet-a-Downpayment-on-the-Future-of-Cinema

Please tell me the part about Red's 617 and 645 format roadmap for the next year, look at Red's PATENTS, and tell me if
Canon and Sony are crapping their pants once that roadmap becomes reality shortly...

Peter Jackson and David Fincher are no fools...
 
J Bellari said:
Please tell me the part about Red's 617 and 645 format roadmap for the next year...
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Considering how very long it took to get to market, and how much the design and price changed, I'll believe those 617 and 645 cameras when I see them.

I love the end product of this new Scarlet (providing it's problem free) but a roadmap from Red is about as reliable as one drawn on a napkin.

:happy:
 
Yeah, laughing because after the announcements they probably had to get uber drunk to forget about it
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Do you really, really think the Japanese are going to let go that easy? They don't dominate the world camera market for nothing. I want Red to succeed of course but the Japanese are just aiming their guns. They dominate the lower end of the market which gives them all the leverage they need to dabble at the higher end more at more ease. Watch Red struggle with production problems as the next months approach. Also watch when Canon replaces the 5d Mark ll, loads of dollars in their coffers. Loads of people shooting with it. The game has just started and is gonna be a very long one.
 
If Scarlet-X is made from "factory seconds" Epic components, how will Red ever reliably be able to meet demand? I mean, if Scarlet orders eventually outnumber Epic orders by, say, 4 to 1, does that mean 80% of Epic circuit boards won't pass muster for use in Epics?

And if James Cameron gets his way and 60 fps becomes the standard 3D frame rate, what good will Scarlet-X be for 3D? It will shoot at 1080p at up to 60 fps, and at Scarlet's limited data rates, it definitely won't be able to do overcranking or HDRx in 3D.
 
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Interesting post. Jannard did say that after this announcement they expected to forever be in back order.

:happy:
 
Another interesting note is that HDRX is only good to 12fps in 4K. WTF good is that? I have also brought it up on reduser, but if Jim says 4k is the only way, why does he market lower resolution better frame rates as a viable option. You cant up res the less than 720p 120fps that scarlet will shoot to 4k ever. So then what good is the 120fps? I can buy a point and shoot that will shoot 1200. And is it true that the only time you get to use the whole sensor is while shooting 5K? Again, what good is that. Don't get me wrong, I think the scarlet is fantastic, but some if it seems a bit absurd... A lot less absurd than a 20k 422 1080p 12 stop of DR box mind you, but absurd none the less.
 
Both of those are true! People are talking smack who can't afford it due to the price increase.

But it also sucks that people who thought they were getting HDRx or overcranking at 120fps at 3km, now get 4k, but can't use the HDRx or overcrank at that res.
 
Tzedekh said:
If Scarlet-X is made from "factory seconds" Epic components, how will Red ever reliably be able to meet demand? I mean, if Scarlet orders eventually outnumber Epic orders by, say, 4 to 1, does that mean 80% of Epic circuit boards won't pass muster for use in Epics?

And if James Cameron gets his way and 60 fps becomes the standard 3D frame rate, what good will Scarlet-X be for 3D? It will shoot at 1080p at up to 60 fps, and at Scarlet's limited data rates, it definitely won't be able to do overcranking or HDRx in 3D.
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If what James Cameron PLANS to be shooting on in 3D should concern us NOW, shouldn't we all run out and buy a Panasonic TM900 for that extra cinematic 1080p 60p video look right now? Go to Best Buy and see if you like that 120hz/240hz frame rate mode...

Due to his past success, I think Jim Cameron could film his next movie in "3D in Black & White" at 120fps at 720p... and you'd still see a bunch of people clamoring you have to do the same. What about artistic choice?

Red is moving from Epic-X sensor size to much larger sensors in the next year, so they say. There will be sensor upgrades along the way.

There's no harm in shooting with what you have already for the next year and seeing if you're happy with what you shot today, right?


PS. I hope you "get" the 3D Black & White Analgraph joke ...
 
John Caballero said:
Do you really, really think the Japanese are going to let go that easy? They don't dominate the world camera market for nothing. I want Red to succeed of course but the Japanese are just aiming their guns. They dominate the lower end of the market which gives them all the leverage they need to dabble at the higher end more at more ease. Watch Red struggle with production problems as the next months approach. Also watch when Canon replaces the 5d Mark ll, loads of dollars in their coffers. Loads of people shooting with it. The game has just started and is gonna be a very long one.
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I agree about the long battle being won by the one with deeper pockets. But those guys at Red are a different breed...

So far the Japanese "play fair" with the US Patent system, and that's Red's biggest equalizer.

I believe COMPRESSED RAW video is THE KEY to low data rates with future high resolution and framerate formats,
and RED owns significant patents to that...

Of course, Canon is now pushing the "shoot once" dead on approach (probably to Counter Red's patents) with minimal data rates and high iso performance,
but you do not get the full benefits of RAW file manipulation in post that way.

Sony and ARRI are stuck with uncompressed RAW due to Red's patents, and hence the huge filesizes.

In the future, there's also no reason why Red won't release more products under $10K
or license Redcode RAW to every manufacturer when they deem it to make business sense.

I also expect the Chinese to have the Epic-X reverse engineered and copied before the Japanese pose a danger
to Red's progress. After all they are the "BIG RED" ...
 
J Bellari said:
If what James Cameron PLANS to be shooting on in 3D should concern us NOW, shouldn't we all run out and buy a Panasonic TM900 for that extra cinematic 1080p 60p video look right now? Go to Best Buy and see if you like that 120hz/240hz frame rate mode...

Due to his past success, I think Jim Cameron could film his next movie in "3D in Black & White" at 120fps at 720p... and you'd still see a bunch of people clamoring you have to do the same. What about artistic choice?

Red is moving from Epic-X sensor size to much larger sensors in the next year, so they say. There will be sensor upgrades along the way.

There's no harm in shooting with what you have already for the next year and seeing if you're happy with what you shot today, right?


PS. I hope you "get" the 3D Black & White Analgraph joke ...
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You completely missed the point. It's not Cameron per se, it's the move to higher frame rates. Peter Jackson is shooting at 48 fps. At that rate Scarlet maxes out at 3K -- again, no HDRx and no overcranking. Three-D is not the unmitigated success the studios hoped for. Ticket sales are down. They will do what is necessary to protect their cashcow, including mandating higher frame rates to make 3D a more palatable experience. Even consumer camcorders are able to do 60p, and I expect that trend to continue. Scarlet-X is crippled in this regard, and it's unclear whether there will be any solution in the future. Jim Jannard discussed the possibility of a sensor upgrade to Dragon, which would require installing additional circuit boards to handle the additional throughput, but he added that in the Scarlet-X, Dragon would have a reduced capability, just as Mysterium-X does in the Red One. What that means -- or if it will happen and if it does, how much will it cost -- is unknown. Look, I understand why Red did what it did in killing the 2/3-inch Scarlet, but it'll be hard to trust them to deliver. And if they do, any added processing power will cost dearly (I wouldn't be surprised if it effectively doubled the cost of Scarlet brain). But it's a big "if." And the camera's currently specced features don't all work yet. Red committed themselves to shipping complete, feature-finished cameras -- which is not to say they wouldn't add new features or improve existing ones, but that what they have on paper actually works. That won't happen. It can't be taken from them that their cameras are remarkable achievements, but Red is (by their own admission) unreliable.
 
J Bellari said:
If what James Cameron PLANS to be shooting on in 3D should concern us NOW, shouldn't we all run out and buy a Panasonic TM900 for that extra cinematic 1080p 60p video look right now? Go to Best Buy and see if you like that 120hz/240hz frame rate mode...
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Why shoot 4K when everyone sees your films 1080p/2K.

BTW Cameron shoots Avatar 2 with Alexa M's.
 
J Bellari said:
Sony and ARRI are stuck with uncompressed RAW due to Red's patents, and hence the huge filesizes.
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What about CineForm?

In the future, there's also no reason why Red won't release more products under $10K or license Redcode RAW to every manufacturer when they deem it to make business sense.
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There's also no reason they will. I can think of reasons why they won't. Professional cameras cost money, and Red doesn't (yet) have the resources to R&D a lot of different designs (they couldn't even do two different second-generation cameras). Plus if Red license RedCode, other manufacturers would be able to undercut them in the marketplace.

I also expect the Chinese to have the Epic-X reverse engineered and copied before the Japanese pose a danger to Red's progress. After all they are the "BIG RED" ...
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Maybe, but Red will fight this. Jim Jannard may not like litigation (who does?), but he's not afraid to defend his intellectual property. And if he permanently had to do that full-time, that would really hurt the company.
 
From: http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?66022-Don-t-piss-down-my-back-and-tell-me-it-s-raining.

This is an open letter to Red.

Scarlet-X is not Scarlet. Since 2008 Scarlet has been a modular camera in two well known flavors: Fixed and Interchangeable. They were touted at 3K, 120 fps, and with HDRx at 60 fps. All for a price "around $6K," according to Ted Schilowitz who said this many many times.

What Red is calling Scarlet-X shoots 4K at 30 fps, 3K at 48 fps, etc. With an S35 sensor. The best part, it costs about $14,000. Wow...

Red defends by saying that 2/3" is too small, and 3K is not big enough either. They also say the fixed lens was not doable after all. While that is sad for a LOT of people, what was wrong with the interchangeable version?

Here is what they are not saying:
Scarlet as we knew it had more processing power than the new fangled Scarlet-X. Do the math. Yet, Scarlet-X will cost more than twice as much as Scarlet. It appears that the original Scarlet could handle 2.5 TIMES the data throughput as Scarlet-X

3K @ 48 fps vs. 3K @ 120, yet there is an inverse relationship when it comes to price. $6000 vs. $14000? Really? What is Red not telling us?

OK, so 3K is not professional? Let's pretend for a moment that I agree with you (I don't). Say Red allowed a Mysterium-X upgrade path for Scarlet interchangeable, at the same cost that the upgrade costs for a Red One ($5750).

Scarlet would then cost about $12,000 for a working package. It would cost presumably about $9500 for the brain only (about the same as the new fangled Scarlet-X, brain only). Here is the difference, given what we know about Scarlet's hardware:

Upgraded Sensor Scarlet: 5K @ at least 30 fps, 4K @ at least 60 fps, 3K @ 120 fps. Sounds awesome right?
What-we-got-N3 Scarlet: 5K @ 12 fps, 4K at 25 fps, 3K @ 48 fps, etc... Something smells here...

Another tidbit of information: Scarlet-X is made up of hardware (ASIC) that did not pass QA to be put in Epic. Same sensor as Epic; same hardware as Epic, albeit crippled. What does that mean? It means Scarlet-X is not some "pie in the sky" revolutionary RED invention. It is a concoction thrown together at the last minute to compete with Canon.

RED, I will not accuse you of fraud, but this feels like bait and switch. Intentional or not, "everything is subject to change" or not, the effect is the same.
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I think you are going to see a lot of people boohooing because they foolishly invested in C-mount lenses while waiting on a 2/3" Scarlet. And now they have all that money tied up in unuseable glass and accessories.
 
If you don't like Red or their approach, you can exercise that frustration by not buying a Scarlet. No one can deny that the camera market is better with Red in the mix and in the end, this is better for us who purchase these cameras.

p.s. I'm not buying either of the new cameras.
 
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