Red Scarlet Announcement Info

[heavyG]

Kinda rude, actually. The comments about the "old" Scarlet are for reference. If you don't like the discussion, you may move on if you wish.

No Not Rude - but exasperated that a camera that never was is constantly being referenced as though it is.

G.

P.s. let's talk about battery options, and 3rd party parts that add functionality. Who's making compatible battery plates that will take 2 hot swappable AB batteries? I've heard not so great things about the RED bricks (not sure if it's real info), and the small batts that fit in the handle don't last very long either.

 

[nyvz]

As I said, I think they are sandbagging a bit on the potential. 70MB/sec was what it calculated out to for 12fps 5k 16bit at 3:1 compression.

I'm pretty sure REDCODE is always 12bits per pixel, whether or not the adc is 14b or 16b, and the published specs say 5k 12fps works at 5:1, its only 8fps at 3:1, 50MBps maximum.

 

[androbot2084]

I think that 4K will be a necessity. Why limit yourself to 1080p which is fine for the home theater when you can create jaw dropping 4K video.

 

[isle]

I think that 4K will be a necessity. Why limit yourself to 1080p which is fine for the home theater when you can create jaw dropping 4K video.

Why limit yourself to 4K when you can create more jaw dropping IMAX/9K. 4K is not the future. It's as much future as 1080p.

 

[Razz16mm]

I'm pretty sure REDCODE is always 12bits per pixel, whether or not the adc is 14b or 16b, and the published specs say 5k 12fps works at 5:1, its only 8fps at 3:1, 50MBps maximum.

Red 1 was 12bpp, Epic and Scarlet X are 16bpp captured to the file. Redcode is a Bayer raw file format unprocessed in camera except for file size compression. It is not like a video camera that processes internally to a reduced bit per pixel video format on output.

 

[Kholi]

I'll go on record for saying this, probably prematurely but after doing some thinking and after looking over my MX and Epic footage, all at various frame rates and sizes:

Scarlet's usage is limited. Hyper-limited.

4K@30P is the only real thing you're getting out of this brain, and it's MX quality so I expect it's more like 2K@30P when it's all said and done. A 4K master's kinda strange to me, since it's not actually grabbing that resolution.

The lowlight's not gonna be as sweet as an F3 or C300, but with a lot of noise correction and careful consideration you'll be able to make it sing regardless.

Anything below 4K is going to be yuck city. All the people clamoring for the C300 to do 1080/60? Well, Scarlet's gonna give you something closer to 720/60 ANYWAY, but... at the cost of a TON of sensor real-estate.

2/3" @ 60P, basically.

I was on the boat, had to much time to think about it when the site was down and the next morning it hit me. I'll just keep renting til Canon shows another hand with the EOS-C class 4K DSLR. And, even then, probably will still have way too much aliasing/moire/etc. to justify.

Can't believe I'm saying this, but right now the AF100, FS100, and F3 are tops. Shooting 4K with Scarlet will dupe a lot of people and it'll ruin a lot of the market, but if it were a choice between that and F3 w/S-Log I'd probably just shoot F3 w/S-Log.

Really...really weird to say that..

EDIT HERE: This has no baring on EPIC or Alexa... EPIC footage is supreme dream and worth every cent.

 

[Stephen Mick]

And that is why Kholi is my brother from another mother. Completely agreed, KH.

 

[digital_walnut]

Kholi, what makes you say that the Scarlet isn't grabbing at a 4K resolution? I haven't seen anything from Red that suggests this.

 

[androbot2084]

So why aren't more movies shot with IMAX if this is the supreme format.

 

[Kholi]

Kholi, what makes you say that the Scarlet isn't grabbing at a 4K resolution? I haven't seen anything from Red that suggests this.

The 4K from that sensor's pulling down maybe 3.2K of real resolution. So you could say it's a strong 2.5K camera but there's no spec for 2.5K

5K from EPIC is a different story, but Scarlet doesn't shoot 5K@30P, it shoots 4K@30P.

What you're basically paying for with Scarlet is the right to say "I shoot 4K". And, it's going to be a strong word next year, to the point that I feel bad for private owners who don't also have a Scarlet or an MX in their arsenal. Even if it's actually not THE better camera (after you really compare and contrast images) it will be the hot word in everyone's mouth.

Again, EPIC is a different story. 5K off of that camera is dreamboat, and the difference between 4K and 5K is very very obvious.

Still, the 4K will look like MX footage and MX footage is still relevant.

 

[J Davis]

I have to agree with Kholi and Stephen, its a tough call at the moment. If you need higher frame rates then Scarlet only works if you're prepared to invest in fast glass at shorter focal lengths. The only thing that might change this is if they release the miniprimes with a mount for scarlet ...6mm T1.5, 8mm T1.5 etc and I started a thread over there suggesting this. I didn't know that the lowlight is not going to be as sweet as the F3 and C300 (kholi post) but that makes sense because the scarlet is coming in at a level between the AF100/FS100 and the F3, C300

I'm still very undecided but Jim posted that all deposits are refundable so I put down a deposit late in the game (3 days after the event) so this should buy me extra time to think before my number comes up.

For narrative -- the scarlet shooting 24p at Quad HD thru HD-SDI to a prores recorder at 13 stops of DR is tempting enough for me to leave the deposit. The recorder approach means I avoid added expenses for RAW media and workflow and keep the costs closer to a 10k camera.

 

[vcfilms]

I have to agree with Kholi and Stephen, its a tough call at the moment. If you need higher frame rates then Scarlet only works if you're prepared to invest in fast glass at shorter focal lengths. The only thing that might change this is if they release the miniprimes with a mount for scarlet ...6mm T1.5, 8mm T1.5 etc and I started a thread over there suggesting this. I didn't know that the lowlight is not going to be as sweet as the F3 and C300 (kholi post) but that makes sense because the scarlet is coming in at a level between the AF100/FS100 and the F3, C300I'm still very undecided but Jim posted that all deposits are refundable so I put down a deposit late in the game (3 days after the event) so this should buy me extra time to think before my number comes up.For narrative -- the scarlet shooting 24p at Quad HD thru HD-SDI to a prores recorder at 13 stops of DR is tempting enough for me to leave the deposit. The recorder approach means I avoid added expenses for RAW media and workflow and keep the costs closer to a 10k camera.

Have we got an official word as to whether or not this method would give us a full raster HD signal from the full sensor or whether it would be a cropped fov?

 

[Erich Ocean]

I'm still very undecided but Jim posted that all deposits are refundable so I put down a deposit late in the game (3 days after the event) so this should buy me extra time to think before my number comes up.

For narrative -- the scarlet shooting 24p at Quad HD thru HD-SDI to a prores recorder at 13 stops of DR is tempting enough for me to leave the deposit. The recorder approach means I avoid added expenses for RAW media and workflow and keep the costs closer to a 10k camera.

I have to think you'd be happier with the C300. Seriously.

I've got an Epic-X in transit, and I'd still spec the C300 for stuff due to the low-light performance, size, battery life, media cost, etc. alone. The Epic is great, but...it needs a lot of light. A lot. And the rigs are huge, and costly. Hell, realistic media for the Epic + a Red Rocket costs the same as the C300! I'd use the Epic for VFX plates/green screen, and whenever I needed high-speed shooting.

As much as I like RED (and I do), the C300 is so much more practical as a camera, and more practical than the F3. What I love about HDSLRs is that they're small and fast and make great pictures. The C300 hits that feature set with an onboard professional image code, XLR connections, ND, a tape hook, etc. out of the park.

It's going to rent like crazy.

 

[androbot2084]

Yes but Jim says it has to be 4k or nothing so you can't let low light performance hold you back.

 

[J Davis]

Have we got an official word as to whether or not this method would give us a full raster HD signal from the full sensor or whether it would be a cropped fov?

It has to be windowed on the sensor or it wouldn't be RAW

confirmed here
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...hnical-Q-amp-A&p=856504&highlight=#post856504

I have to think you'd be happier with the C300. Seriously.

I've got an Epic-X in transit, and I'd still spec the C300 for stuff due to the low-light performance, size, battery life, media cost, etc. alone. The Epic is great, but...it needs a lot of light. A lot. And the rigs are huge, and costly. Hell, realistic media for the Epic + a Red Rocket costs the same as the C300! I'd use the Epic for VFX plates/green screen, and whenever I needed high-speed shooting.

As much as I like RED (and I do), the C300 is so much more practical as a camera, and more practical than the F3. What I love about HDSLRs is that they're small and fast and make great pictures. The C300 hits that feature set with an onboard professional image code, XLR connections, ND, a tape hook, etc. out of the park.

It's going to rent like crazy.

Its not in the right budget for me, this is going to be my personal cam not something I rent out. Even 10k is a huge stretch

 

[digital_walnut]

It's a given that you're going to have a lower resolution when you debayer, so I don't think anyone who's seriously considering shelling out $14K for a camera system is under a false impression here. The Red One/MX were intended to grab at a resolution that would roughly match the maximum detail of film stock, and that's what the Scarlet does, but with an extra stop or two of DR and more color depth. Sure, there will be clients who demand "4K" and shooters who will boast the "4K" ability of their camera to clients, but that's not very different than the world of "1080p" cameras that don't resolve that much detail.

Overall, I can't find any reason to think the Scarlet won't make a great camera for anyone who's going to be shooting in 24/30p who want their work distributed theatrically.

The 4K from that sensor's pulling down maybe 3.2K of real resolution. So you could say it's a strong 2.5K camera but there's no spec for 2.5K

5K from EPIC is a different story, but Scarlet doesn't shoot 5K@30P, it shoots 4K@30P.

What you're basically paying for with Scarlet is the right to say "I shoot 4K". And, it's going to be a strong word next year, to the point that I feel bad for private owners who don't also have a Scarlet or an MX in their arsenal. Even if it's actually not THE better camera (after you really compare and contrast images) it will be the hot word in everyone's mouth.

Again, EPIC is a different story. 5K off of that camera is dreamboat, and the difference between 4K and 5K is very very obvious.

Still, the 4K will look like MX footage and MX footage is still relevant.

 

[Erich Ocean]

Yes but Jim says it has to be 4k or nothing so you can't let low light performance hold you back.

It's now 4K RAW or nothing. The C300 has a 4K sensor, and the images are super sharp – RED sharp.

The purpose is to get great images, right? Sometimes, I feel like the average RedUser loses sight of that fact, and instead focus on shooting RAW while losing sight of the real goal. If you can get great images out of the camera, and then store them as log (with a quick, real-time "bring back the contrast" pass in Resolve) for a little color grading later, you'll be a hell of a lot more productive as a filmmaker.

I can't help put think we'll end up with more beautiful imagery from the C300 than we will from the Scarlet-X. At the very least, the people with the C300 will be shooting more often.

 

[Erich Ocean]

What you're basically paying for with Scarlet is the right to say "I shoot 4K". And, it's going to be a strong word next year, to the point that I feel bad for private owners who don't also have a Scarlet or an MX in their arsenal. Even if it's actually not THE better camera (after you really compare and contrast images) it will be the hot word in everyone's mouth.

And anyone with a C300 can say that too – 4K sensor, with on-board de-bayer to the 1080p delivery every Scarlet user is going to have to spend $5K just to do (not to mention the crazy expensive media costs vs. the C300). Capturing 4K detail and outputting 1080p (in camera with C300, later with the Scarlet) produces a very sharp image. It's noticeable.

But the point is that the Scarlet isn't the only way to get there. It's not even the cheapest, if you count the whole path (media, time, etc.).

 

[Erich Ocean]

Its not in the right budget for me, this is going to be my personal cam not something I rent out. Even 10k is a huge stretch

If the C300 is not in budget, then the Scarlet is not in budget, full stop.

You mentioned outboard recording (presumably to keep costs down). You do know that the feed from the Scarlet is not clean, right? It's only for proxy recording (and playback, since that's not enabled), not final capture.

 

[Kholi]

It's a given that you're going to have a lower resolution when you debayer, so I don't think anyone who's seriously considering shelling out $14K for a camera system is under a false impression here. The Red One/MX were intended to grab at a resolution that would roughly match the maximum detail of film stock, and that's what the Scarlet does, but with an extra stop or two of DR and more color depth. Sure, there will be clients who demand "4K" and shooters who will boast the "4K" ability of their camera to clients, but that's not very different than the world of "1080p" cameras that don't resolve that much detail.

Overall, I can't find any reason to think the Scarlet won't make a great camera for anyone who's going to be shooting in 24/30p who want their work distributed theatrically.

Hey, it's all good. I'm not telling anyone not to buy it. From my extensive experience with RED MX and now EPIC, Scarlet doesn't look like the camera I'd choose to shoot a feature on. I would shell out for the Epic-X, C300, or even go to an F3 w/Slog before Scarlet.

But, that's also just me. So if you want to buy it, then go for it. We're just discussing the merits of the tech and how it'll be applicable. To me, the camera's been crippled to a point where the other options seem cheaper and more effective.