Red Ruination Blue - a production blog

Zak Forsman said:
anyone else see the irony here? :)
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Yea I guess it's all about perception. I consider movies to be entertainment therefore I want to be entertained... not talked down to. Just like millions of other people who watch movies and television.

I'm not saying I'm any better than mr. highbrow but I can sure as hell say he is NOT better than me.

I absolutely respect you Zak because you are getting it done and I don't get the feeling you are looking down on the rest of us. You make stuff that does not fit my normal viewing but because you seem to be a down to earth person I give it a shot. :thumbsup:
 
Cryogenic Filmworks said:
Yea I guess it's all about perception. I consider movies to be entertainment therefore I want to be entertained... not talked down to. Just like millions of other people who watch movies and television.

I'm not saying I'm any better than mr. highbrow but I can sure as hell say he is NOT better than me.

I absolutely respect you Zak because you are getting it done and I don't get the feeling you are looking down on the rest of us. You make stuff that does not fit my normal viewing but because you seem to be a down to earth person I give it a shot. :thumbsup:
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I hear you. and i assume people do it, only because I hear people complain about it so much and although i've never actually seen it play out, i never put anyone down for enjoying broad entertainment. come to think of it, I see a lot more "put downs" aimed at people who enjoy discussing the more cerebral layers of a film than the other way around. haha! We "highbrows" love talking about the psychology of characters, the added meaning of a scene's framing, the spiritual dimension of a character's choices... so what? my personal life experience has made me, and the people like me, sensitive to an understanding of those things. none of that implies we look down at anyone for watching Bad Boys II. And even though I don't get off on it in the same way "lowbrows" don't get off on something like Breaking the Waves, I still want to be friends. we still have a passion for the cinematic experience in common.
 
HVX2006 said:
Also your rather cynical remark caught my attention as on top of being frightening that the new bread of film makers have become so disinterested in film for films sake, it also shows a heavy handiness completely unfitting for the subject. Can you imagine your self, the marketing team sitting around the table conceiving the log line for Shindlers lists. So how many jews...???


So i ask a with nothing to lose staring out director, why bother with all this marketing crap, Hollywood rules that don't apply, stars that don't sell.... Its a drag on your creativity and is guarantied to only produce sub par cookie cutter exploitation. So why do it? Its like trying to make a Armani suit form t-shirt material - IT IS NOT GOING TO WORK!
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Don't take my post as a flame or another person riding your back, your opinion is as valid as any fighting for Adam's freedom to create. I only want to point out that...

Why make a film/movie for a movie/film's sake if it's going to be bad due to financial constraints? I think, in the end, we're all going with these tired-ass business models because we want to get money so that we can make those films for films sake.

Not having to ask anyone for money to shoot those films for films sake is a great thing, and striving toward getting the money so that we can do that is okay, right?


Now, I think I DO get where you're coming from in regards to the marketing for what could and probably will be a touchy subject. Which is why I am only engaged in the basic conversation/debate here that revolves around film models and distribution, marketing, the process.
 
Actually I'm trying my best to incorporate more High Brow-ness into this movie. Sophistication is never a bad thing, and as much as I love a good shoot-em-up it's unlikely to be feted in any significant way....
 
Zak Forsman said:
I hear you. and i assume people do it, only because I hear people complain about it so much and although i've never actually seen it play out, i never put anyone down for enjoying broad entertainment. come to think of it, I see a lot more "put downs" aimed at people who enjoy discussing the more cerebral layers of a film than the other way around. haha! We "highbrows" love talking about the psychology of characters, the added meaning of a scene's framing, the spiritual dimension of a character's choices... so what? my personal life experience has made me, and the people like me, sensitive to an understanding of those things. none of that implies we look down at anyone for watching Bad Boys II. And even though I don't get off on it in the same way "lowbrows" don't get off on something like Breaking the Waves, I still want to be friends. we still have a passion for the cinematic experience in common.
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I'm pretty Lowbrow. Zak is my fren. I fink.
 
Cryogenic Filmworks said:
Highbrow = Pretentious = Someone who talks down to other people because they believe they are better than everyone else and their shi* don't stink.

I'd much rather watch a good shoot em up than some highbrow crap which in fact... do tend to stink.

Adam. Keep up the good work. Will be looking forward to this one as well as anticipating Corrado.
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I hope you are not trying to be condescending (That's talking down to someone.)
 
Adam.

Thanks so much for sharing your ideas.

It's great to kick them around and I am excited to see what you might eventually come up with and put on the screen! :beer:
 
((attn moderators)) I am going to attempt to address Adam and I am going to try not to get too political.... its only for the sake of furthering the debate/production blog on this film.... I am not trying to make some bold political move here...

Adam....

the reason this topic does fire me up is that I am from a part of the country where there is a very deep, prejudice, racist, paranoid mindset going on.... and seeing this type of mindset day in and day out, well it hits home with me. Our country is in a peculiar position right now an I think that people need to be coming together and celebrating our interdependence, not getting easily divided by our deepest paranoias and fears.... the whole right wing / gun convention / conspiracy / hi tech survivalism scene plays to the absolute WORST fears in the human mind... and so I think making a film that sort of exploits this in a shrewd "Low Budget Hollywood" kind of way is frankly.... offensive..... now I'm an def not a closed minded person, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and I do like to be challenged and dare I say... offended sometimes (esp. by good thought provoking films)

so like I said earlier, I going to enjoy seeing where this thread goes.... I'm not trying to tell you what kind of film you are going to make, I'm just offering real world reaction and criticism, something I think is very valuable to you as a director/producer....

just a side note.... don't believe that I am against disaster preparedness, I've been through MANY hurricanes and went completely without power for weeks on end... I was in New Orleans right after Katrina (helping folks survive) and I saw the absolute best and the absolute worst in humanity.... and within the whole survivalism movement there are two distinct branches of thought...

the gun toting, Hummer driving, high tech paramilitary type of survivalists...

and then theres the Cody Lundin esque school of thought that focuses more on native american type principles for survival and a true appreciation for the Earth and its limited resources... also a big portion of his work is focused on the MENTAL toughness it will take to actually survive (overcoming fears, basic altruism, etc)

as you can see, its a hot button issue with me and I look forward to further interesting debate.
 
to others who throw the high brow card on the table....

trust me holmes, if you met (and or) kicked it with me and my friends..... jeez.... you would quickly realize we are the most vulgar, low brow, horrible joke crackin set of dudes to ever walk gods green earf

I just enjoy a good challenging film now and again.
 
hoofandmouf said:
((attn moderators)) I am going to attempt to address Adam and I am going to try not to get too political.... its only for the sake of furthering the debate/production blog on this film.... I am not trying to make some bold political move here...

Adam....

the reason this topic does fire me up is that I am from a part of the country where there is a very deep, prejudice, racist, paranoid mindset going on.... and seeing this type of mindset day in and day out, well it hits home with me. Our country is in a peculiar position right now an I think that people need to be coming together and celebrating our interdependence, not getting easily divided by our deepest paranoias and fears.... the whole right wing / gun convention / conspiracy / hi tech survivalism scene plays to the absolute WORST fears in the human mind... and so I think making a film that sort of exploits this in a shrewd "Low Budget Hollywood" kind of way is frankly.... offensive..... now I'm an def not a closed minded person, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and I do like to be challenged and dare I say... offended sometimes (esp. by good thought provoking films)

so like I said earlier, I going to enjoy seeing where this thread goes.... I'm not trying to tell you what kind of film you are going to make, I'm just offering real world reaction and criticism, something I think is very valuable to you as a director/producer....

just a side note.... don't believe that I am against disaster preparedness, I've been through MANY hurricanes and went completely without power for weeks on end... I was in New Orleans right after Katrina (helping folks survive) and I saw the absolute best and the absolute worst in humanity.... and within the whole survivalism movement there are two distinct branches of thought...

the gun toting, Hummer driving, high tech paramilitary type of survivalists...

and then theres the Cody Lundin esque school of thought that focuses more on native american type principles for survival and a true appreciation for the Earth and its limited resources... also a big portion of his work is focused on the MENTAL toughness it will take to actually survive (overcoming fears, basic altruism, etc)

as you can see, its a hot button issue with me and I look forward to further interesting debate.
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You live in a fantasy world.

The only thing that keeps us free is our willingness to defend it at any cost.

Period.

I have personally lived through many racist episodes in many ways. In my nuclear family there is nary an ethnicity unrepresented through either phenotype nor culture.


Yes, the right wing baby jesus rides a dinosaur nutters are well… nutters!

So are the crazy left wingy hypocrites who sing kumbaya an talk talk talk lift not one finger to defend people and instead rely on others who they bad mouth the entire way.

Just different sides of the same counterfeit coin.


Adams movie isn’t even made yet so how do we know how he will portray it and how we will perceive it.

If you find his movie offense, don’t invest, don’t watch, and well do whatever else within the confines of Law and Decency you see fit.

But, you might find a better use of your time is creating what you do love and the message you do want to send.

Let the market place of ideas decide.

/edification mode
 
ESTEBEVERDE said:
But, you might find a better use of your time is creating what you do love and the message you do want to send.
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I generally don't like movies with "a message", regardless of what part of the political spectrum they fall in. Doesn't exactly sit well with me when the filmmaker has an agenda, even if I agree with it (Life of David Gale for example). And what I did with Heart of Now was to provide an even-handed look at the prolife/pro-choice issue. I think there is a responsibility not to make a judgement on it, but to present it honestly, and fully, without stacking the deck to suit my personal bias on the issue. Films, generally are an argument between two thematic ideas bouncing back and forth between the two. And the film's conclusion is determined by whichever is the prevailing idea the end. for example, in Dirty Harry, you have two arguments at work... "justice prevails when the good guy is dirtier than the bad guys" and "justice fails when the good guy is dirtier than the bad guys". the films goes back and forth proving each one as true, from scene to scene, until one of those arguments is used to reach a conclusion.

but yeah, you want a send me a message? write a postcard.
 
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hoofandmouf said:
((attn moderators)) I am going to attempt to address Adam and I am going to try not to get too political.... its only for the sake of furthering the debate/production blog on this film.... I am not trying to make some bold political move here...

Adam....

the reason this topic does fire me up is that I am from a part of the country where there is a very deep, prejudice, racist, paranoid mindset going on.... and seeing this type of mindset day in and day out, well it hits home with me. Our country is in a peculiar position right now an I think that people need to be coming together and celebrating our interdependence, not getting easily divided by our deepest paranoias and fears.... the whole right wing / gun convention / conspiracy / hi tech survivalism scene plays to the absolute WORST fears in the human mind... and so I think making a film that sort of exploits this in a shrewd "Low Budget Hollywood" kind of way is frankly.... offensive..... now I'm an def not a closed minded person, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and I do like to be challenged and dare I say... offended sometimes (esp. by good thought provoking films)

so like I said earlier, I going to enjoy seeing where this thread goes.... I'm not trying to tell you what kind of film you are going to make, I'm just offering real world reaction and criticism, something I think is very valuable to you as a director/producer....

just a side note.... don't believe that I am against disaster preparedness, I've been through MANY hurricanes and went completely without power for weeks on end... I was in New Orleans right after Katrina (helping folks survive) and I saw the absolute best and the absolute worst in humanity.... and within the whole survivalism movement there are two distinct branches of thought...

the gun toting, Hummer driving, high tech paramilitary type of survivalists...

and then theres the Cody Lundin esque school of thought that focuses more on native american type principles for survival and a true appreciation for the Earth and its limited resources... also a big portion of his work is focused on the MENTAL toughness it will take to actually survive (overcoming fears, basic altruism, etc)

as you can see, its a hot button issue with me and I look forward to further interesting debate.
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Man, this was incredibly thoughtful and well written. I wished you would have posted this first. I completely see your viewpoint. My film is an attempt at a warning for all couched in a great story. You'll come away from it saying - man, let's not ever let this great land become that way -whether you're a repub or a dem alike.
 
Zak Forsman said:
I generally don't like movies with "a message", regardless of what part of the political spectrum they fall in. Doesn't exactly sit well with me when the filmmaker has an agenda, even if I agree with it (Life of David Gale for example). And what I did with Heart of Now was to provide an even-handed look at the prolife/pro-choice issue. I think there is a responsibility not to make a judgement on it, but to present it honestly, and fully, without dressing it to suit my personal bias on the issue. Films, generally are an argument between two thematic ideas bouncing back and forth between the two. And the film's conclusion is determined by whichever is the prevailing idea the end. for example, in Dirty Harry, you have two arguments at work... "justice prevails because the good guy is dirtier than the bad guys" and "justice fails because the good guy is dirtier than the bad guys". the films goes back and forth proving each one from scene to scene until one of those arguments is used top reach a conclusion.

but yeah, you want a send me a message? write a postcard.
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Okay, send me your address. :Drogar-Love(DBG):

Seriously, most movies have a message regardless of them wanting to or not. It simply a question of theme and the central question of the story. I didn't intentionally write one in there, but it's going to be perceived that way.

I actually think you'll have a hard time pointing out any Oscar or award winning film that doesn't have a message.
 
However this movie goes, this thread is extremely informative and provocative.

This is why it's so hard to make low budget indie movies and get them out into theaters. As an indie you finish your movie and send it to five studios for screening. They screen it without you being present to their staff and turn it down 9999 out of 10,000.

Because everyone of those reviewers think like you, each with their own point of view as to what they like and what they think the audience likes.

What I love about the foreign market is that 1500 buyers come from 150 territories and they look at the trailers and posters of an indie movie and they decide whether or not they will make money with the movie if they distributed it in their countries.

With a domestic distributor, you're dealing with a myriad of opinions.

Still, this thread is valuable for filmmakers trying to determine what type of movie to make. So, it's therapy, a lesson in what audiences want to see, and a preview of the demographic considerations of what an indie movie will be subjected to by distributors and potential audiences (if it makes it out there).

Good luck with it Adam. This is a fascinating thread.

DVXuser is the best website for state of the art critiques.LOL
 
taormina said:
Okay, send me your address. :Drogar-Love(DBG):

Seriously, most movies have a message regardless of them wanting to or not. It simply a question of theme and the central question of the story. I didn't intentionally write one in there, but it's going to be perceived that way.

I actually think you'll have a hard time pointing out any Oscar or award winning film that doesn't have a message.
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I don't think of the thematic argument as being synonymous with "sending a message". The Academy gave its most prestigious award to Crash, a film that stacked the emotional deck to forward its agenda, but also to Unforgiven, where the ramifications of violence were explored evenly by a non-judgmental storyteller.

film is a powerful medium when used to spark a dialogue by acknowledging the grey areas on both sides of a thematic argument, but it flounders when you set out with a singular agenda to change a person's mind. filmmakers won't change minds by manufacturing a plotline designed to prove their point of view. it's never happened. never will. minds change when a dialogue of ideas is fostered.
 
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Zak Forsman said:
I don't think of the thematic argument as being synonymous with "sending a message". The Academy gave its most prestigious award to Crash, a film that stacked the emotional deck to forward its agenda, but also to Unforgiven, where the ramifications of violence were explored evenly by a non-judgmental storyteller.

film is a powerful medium when used to spark a dialogue by acknowledging the grey areas on both sides of a thematic argument, but it flounders when you set out with a singular agenda to change a person's mind. filmmakers won't change minds by manufacturing a plotline designed to prove their point of view. it's never happened. never will. minds change when a dialogue of ideas is fostered.
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What makes you think I'm trying to change anyone's mind?
 
I don't. my thoughts here were in reply to ESTEBEVERDE's post on a filmmaker's doing what they love and the message they want to send.

I can't imagine what the purpose of constructing a plot around a single-minded philosophy is, if not to convince an audience that "this is what's right" (i.e. change minds). if the intent is to convince us that something is "right", why would an artificially composed story get me there? this is why the conventions of christian movies are so off-putting to most audiences. generally, they are constructed to prove a belief by again, stacking the deck in that position's favor. how phony is that? Audiences tend to find a more complex (and realistic) illustration to be much, much more compelling.

this is my complaint with documentaries of late. michael moore has done great harm to liberal politics and the integrity of the documentary form with the contrivances he's forced upon his topics in an effort to fulfill his point of view (aka agenda). He'll never be able to do more than preach to the choir. And he's certainly not part of advancing real progress.
 
taormina said:
Back to the commercial thing, look at this:

Quoted from the following article

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/business/media/25steal.html?_r=2

“Just remember that it’s over when you start taking yourself so seriously that the project stops becoming a commercial movie,” he continued, “and starts becoming an art project.”

Business, people! This is a business!!!
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Art without Commerce is a Hobby. And hobbies are great, but they lack self-sustainability. although, I don't think "taking yourself seriously" is synonymous with losing sight of the project.

i don't think of film as a business, though. making behind the scenes content, that's purely a business. filmmaking is more of a... a monetized artform. splitting hairs, really. i know.
 
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