Red Raven Official

Kegan said:
Man, what a wildly embarrassing thread this is. I seriously thought the days of camera wars (incl. the petty, poor arguments for and against) were long over...
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It might be embarassing, but it could not exist on REDuser. Because that forum is first and foremost about marketing with a great deal of valuable information mixed in, and the mods would take it down immediately. Trust me I know. Criticism, free speech, etc. do not exist over there. I find that REPREHENSIBLE. Which is why everyone is walking on eggshells andoften telling the emperor how great everything is. Wow! Great! Super! You go dude! Now, this thread may be factually wrong in many regards, but at least it's an opportunity to vent some deep frustrations people feel with a series of products that are enticing on many levels, but not altogether coherent or even wise as a mid to long term investment strategy. Personally for instance, I think that the pricing of Weapon virtually (I stress virtually) on par with Alexa is a mistake. Because the latter will clearly hold it's value far longer than the former (as instanced by RED's plummeting rental rates in most markets by comparison to the Alexa), and it also deeply undercuts the investments Dragon users have made in the last year by a considerable margin. It totally destroys their rental market by putting the top shelf product beyond the reach of an owner/operator. The Dragon eating it's own tale so to speak. In this context RED RAVEN is far too proprietary as a package to represent a wise investment to me. Oh, and yes, I know that the founder of DVXuser, is one and the same for REDuser.
 
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I have no idea how the 1.87x sensor rounds down to standard 1.5x size but not up to m43s af100 1.9x size according to the entire good folks at reduser community.

Mentioning m43s size makes many so scared as if it were some kind of an STD.

The Raven sensor is 20.5mm X 10.8mm, a m43s format camera, with a sensor size of the AF100/GH2/GH4 range. Raven and AF100 share identical vertical dimension and 1mm horizontal difference (17:9 vs 16:9). It has the same FOV/DOF/Aesthetic.

A 50mm = 75mm on an Ursa Mini and = 93mm on the Raven. That's a fact. It's a significant aesthetic and shooting difference,

It's not a huge issue to some, a benefit to others, and a deal breaker to others,

so should be clearly stated and known as a camera of that format size rather than RED vaguely trying to pass it off as a standard s35 size as the rivals by not mentioning it. It's not. It's smaller. It's a significant spec point in a 11-15K camera.
 
There are many not-so-witty wisecracks to make or charges to admit to (being an insolent fool is one of them) ... but ... I recall when posters here on DVXUser were bringing similar proprietary media complaints against Convergent Design. As the result, eventually Q7+ came out prepackaged with two 256 GB SSD's for the very reasonable $2,300 total and additional SSD's have also become priced closer to the market for the higher grade off-the-shelf pieces. I don't recall anyone boycotting Convergent Design over those original prices but there were plenty of hints that the disparity between their and an off-the-shelf product was simply too wide. Some adjustments were made, tons of units were sold, Mitch got an honorary plaque on the DVX User Sponsor Wall of Fame. And everyone learned how to get along.

As to Red, they indeed need higher markups to stay alive and, with camera and the related accessory prices plunging, these markups will be hard to come by.
 
Kegan said:
There's no such thing as a perfect camera and there never will be. That's a fact - pushing for better technology is fine, but why do you want more options? Are the options out there not good enough for you? There's a camera at almost every price point and if the lowest price point is still too much, that's completely fine. There should be a bit of a barrier to this industry. The level of saturation is crazy and the level of skill is also dropping with entry level prices.

I'm not going argue with anyone but I honestly don't think discussions about camera systems being too expensive help anyone, at any level.

We are entitled to give feedback but we are NOT entitled to tell a camera manufacturer how to run their business and quite frankly, we shouldn't be.
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Since when has more options been a negative? Like I said, the less options there are, the more stake a company will hold in production as a whole and the costs will certainly be higher for everything. In terms of anyone being able to afford a pro camera, that's all fine. They can drop $10,000 on a camera but they can't buy talent.
 
combatentropy said:
Why do some members of this forum argue so hard on the seller's behalf? When buying a house, if your wife were to say to the seller, "Would you take it for $5,000 less?" do you interrupt her and say something like, "Give 'em a break, honey! These people have mouths to feed."

It's all part of the negotiation process. A seller has every right to set whatever price he wants. Likewise a buyer has every right to say that the seller is asking a ridiculous price. And finally the seller has every right to say that buyers are being cheapskates, that the product has hidden costs that you wouldn't imagine but I won't go into the details because that would reveal my exact profit and that's none of your business.
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DLD said:
There are many not-so-witty wisecracks to make or charges to admit to (being an insolent fool is one of them) ... but ... I recall when posters here on DVXUser were bringing similar proprietary media complaints against Convergent Design. As the result, eventually Q7+ came out prepackaged with two 256 GB SSD's for the very reasonable $2,300 total and additional SSD's have also become priced closer to the market for the higher grade off-the-shelf pieces. I don't recall anyone boycotting Convergent Design over those original prices but there were plenty of hints that the disparity between their and an off-the-shelf product was simply too wide. Some adjustments were made, tons of units were sold, Mitch got an honorary plaque on the DVX User Sponsor Wall of Fame. And everyone learned how to get along.

As to Red, they indeed need higher markups to stay alive and, with camera and the related accessory prices plunging, these markups will be hard to come by.
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Well said.
 
Yoak said:
I replied to you saying you used a lot of CF cards in the 7D and 5D
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I get the confusion. When talking about speed AND reliability, I'm referring to CFast cards. But I've used CF cards over the years and never had a failure. I was responding to someone saying they had them fail on them and didn't mean to imply they could handle 4K data rates.
 
yoclay said:
It might be embarassing, but it could not exist on REDuser. Because that forum is first and foremost about marketing with a great deal of valuable information mixed in, and the mods would take it down immediately. Trust me I know. Criticism, free speech, etc. do not exist over there. I find that REPREHENSIBLE. Which is why everyone is walking on eggshells andoften telling the emperor how great everything is. Wow! Great! Super! You go dude! Now, this thread may be factually wrong in many regards, but at least it's an opportunity to vent some deep frustrations people feel with a series of products that are enticing on many levels, but not altogether coherent or even wise as a mid to long term investment strategy. Personally for instance, I think that the pricing of Weapon virtually (I stress virtually) on par with Alexa is a mistake. Because the latter will clearly hold it's value far longer than the former (as instanced by RED's plummeting rental rates in most markets by comparison to the Alexa), and it also deeply undercuts the investments Dragon users have made in the last year by a considerable margin. It totally destroys their rental market by putting the top shelf product beyond the reach of an owner/operator. The Dragon eating it's own tale so to speak. In this context RED RAVEN is far too proprietary as a package to represent a wise investment to me. Oh, and yes, I know that the founder of DVXuser, is one and the same for REDuser.
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Ditto.....
 
No ND's, no 4K internal, weird sensor size, weird lens mount (lack of options), weird media, weird form factor, weird accessories, poor battery life, horrible forum for support issues... and all in the price range and marketing umbrella of a camera that should have AT LEAST the first four things fixed or changed.

How exactly is this joke of a camera even worth discussing? I seriously want to know why. You can't defend those issues I listed, so what am I missing here? Fan issues? Hope issues? You just want to argue issues? WHAT is it?
 
VinceinLA the camera does have a great list of upsides as well as the downsides you listed. Listing the things it will do well is endless.

I am sure going to be a great camera for a certain type of shooting, I expect it to be the best on the market actually for that type.
 
VinceinLA said:
No ND's, no 4K internal, weird sensor size, weird lens mount (lack of options), weird media, weird form factor, weird accessories, poor battery life, horrible forum for support issues... and all in the price range and marketing umbrella of a camera that should have AT LEAST the first four things fixed or changed.

How exactly is this joke of a camera even worth discussing? I seriously want to know why. You can't defend those issues I listed, so what am I missing here? Fan issues? Hope issues? You just want to argue issues? WHAT is it?
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I have zero desire to own a Red, so I really don't have a dog in this fight... but correct me if I'm wrong, but the Alexa also doesn't have internal ND's (at least stock, from checking their website). Why is a sensor size between 4/3 and S35 necessarily a negative? The camera does record 4k internally, just not to ProRes (again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but that what I've read so far)... but people buy a Red for raw, not ProRes. And EF mount is a lot less weird than Sony E-mount, and it's used by multiple other camera manufacturers. What mount should they use?

Red obviously isn't your cup of tea. Neither is it mine. But just because something doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for everybody. A friend of mine loves his Red, but he also has a 5DmkII and is buying a C100 mkII. Different tools for different jobs. It's hardly a joke of a camera... as Alex1 said above, some folks are going to tell amazing stories with this camera.
 
VinceinLA said:
No ND's, no 4K internal, weird sensor size, weird lens mount (lack of options), weird media, weird form factor, weird accessories, poor battery life, horrible forum for support issues... and all in the price range and marketing umbrella of a camera that should have AT LEAST the first four things fixed or changed.

How exactly is this joke of a camera even worth discussing? I seriously want to know why. You can't defend those issues I listed, so what am I missing here? Fan issues? Hope issues? You just want to argue issues? WHAT is it?
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No internal 4K? Are you talking about the Raven?

If you're talking about the Raven I can respect your other complaints. It does take time to get used to the camera in terms of form factor etc. But I'm 100% sure it has internal 4K and that there are Plenty of options for EF mounts. Obviously Canon EF, Rokinon Xeen, Zeiss CP2's and CZ's, Canon Cine lenses, Cine-Xenar III's, Leica R, Contax Zeiss, FD, Tokina Cine lenses, heck you can even get Angenieux Optimos with EF mounts these days upon request... I wouldn't say you don't have choices when it comes to glass though.

Fan Issues? What fan issues. I've had the same camera for 4 years and its had dust/snow/rain and what not in the fan and have had no issues. The fan 2.0 kit fixed any issues with noise when recording audio. And they even fixed the fans to have better placement now.

As to why. Because it's RED and they stir the pot. And because there isn't anything for under 11-12 grand that I can think of that shoots 4K 120 raw. You don't have to buy or even like RED but if you're going to discuss the camera atleast read what its capable of first. Like the whole part about it shooting 4K...
 
VinceinLA said:
No ND's, no 4K internal, weird sensor size, weird lens mount (lack of options), weird media, weird form factor, weird accessories, poor battery life, horrible forum for support issues... and all in the price range and marketing umbrella of a camera that should have AT LEAST the first four things fixed or changed.

How exactly is this joke of a camera even worth discussing? I seriously want to know why. You can't defend those issues I listed, so what am I missing here? Fan issues? Hope issues? You just want to argue issues? WHAT is it?
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If you think REDUSER is a horrible support forum (personally I don't), then talk directly to your assigned rep from the company. I have had outstanding service from RED and the people working there.
Even on the forum, not only by mail or phone.

I would have loved NDs
Dont mind the sensor size
have a lot of EOS glass and their EOS mounts are one of the most rigid mounts outside of PL as opposed to the e-mount.
Rock solid media (but wish it was cheaper)
Love the form factor as I can rig RED cameras to fit all different shooting styles
And the Dragon produce stunning images, so if Raven is close (same sensor) it's amazing to me.

What is the camera that tick all the boxes for you?

PS I have shot a lot with the F55 this fall and although it has internal ND, the increments are to big IMO. It's hard to find the perfect camera. The FS7 ticks quite a few boxes for me, but it's image quality, specially in slowmo and its bugginess its a big let down
(I own the FS7)
 
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Paul schefz said:
actually the only cards i have ever had fail on my were red mags.....no sd card, no cf card, no xcd card....also: the only cameras that have ever failed me on a job was a rolleiflex and red scarlet....never a fuji, canon, nikon, sony....ever....and if you think that red customer support is great because they are a small company, think again.....your personal bomb squad rep will be nice and friendly but if the rest of the machine isn't running it does not help...

all cameras and all card have a statistical fail rate, and once in a while they all will fail.....the only way to deal with that is back up.....and in the case of raven a realistic day shoot requires at least 3 mini mags....
the idea that a higher priced mag will get you a lower fail rate is crazy (unless you only buy the cheapest sd and cf cards off eBay....that's not a good idea)
mini mags are priced for the RED system.....and they actually are a steal compared to the older/larger mags which were twice(?) as expensive....and which btw had quite a reputation for failing.....
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Just to offer the benefit of an alternate experience, I have had Sony, Panasonic, and Canon cameras fail on me. All were repaired and serviced in a reasonable time frame with quality customer support. When you shoot 300 days a year you're going to run into some gear issues no matter what field you're in. They're just machines.
 
bill totolo said:
I don't think the Ursa mini requires a $6500 video card. Not that I wouldn't buy it if I went w/ the Raven.
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The URSA mini, assuming you shoot uncompressed raw probably would require more of a card than the Raven.

You don't have to get a RRX card to edit Raven footage. I edit on a 5K iMac at decent deliverable speeds. At times I also edit 6K Dragon while traveling on a 13inch macbook pro.
 
bill totolo said:
I don't think the Ursa mini requires a $6500 video card. Not that I wouldn't buy it if I went w/ the Raven.
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Maybe there was a time when that was needed. Two-three years ago?

I import and edit 5.5k+ RED Dragon footage on my MacBook Pro Retina from 2012. In FCPX you just import, edit export. No settings if you don't want to. IF you want to, you have access to RedRaw settings too. Basically same in Resolve. There you have even more options, and you can smart cache the DeBayer process (and many other things too). Both software use vanilla OpelCL for acceleration (RedCineX too) and Resolve of course also uses CUDA with NVIDIA.

I'm sure there are many valid objections to Raven's format. But seriously… (and this is not directed to anyone special) if a camera gets released that isn't for you… why waste time bashing it around users who think it's the greatest thing since the man purse?
 
AndreeOnline said:
Maybe there was a time when that was needed. Two-three years ago?

I import and edit 5.5k+ RED Dragon footage on my MacBook Pro Retina from 2012. In FCPX you just import, edit export. No settings if you don't want to. IF you want to, you have access to RedRaw settings too. Basically same in Resolve. There you have even more options, and you can smart cache the DeBayer process (and many other things too). Both software use vanilla OpelCL for acceleration (RedCineX too) and Resolve of course also uses CUDA with NVIDIA.

I'm sure there are many valid objections to Raven's format. But seriously… (and this is not directed to anyone special) if a camera gets released that isn't for you… why waste time bashing it around users who think it's the greatest thing since the man purse?
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Good to know, does this apply to transcoding in real time as well? And does that include multiple layers on a time-line?
I don't use FCPX, can I replicate that performance with PP on a mac machine?

Most of my shoots are multi-cam, and lost time adds up quickly, as does hiring multiple data managers.
 
bill totolo said:
Good to know, does this apply to transcoding in real time as well?
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It works exceptionally well in FCPX (I don't need many layers most of the time, I have to get back to you on this). In Resolve it depends a bit on node structure and what you're doing. If you're unfamiliar with Resolve it's easy to ask a lot of the computer without knowing it. It's powerful.

It was many years since I used PP I'm afraid. Maybe someone with recent experiences can pitch in?
 
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